posted 12-15-2003 05:51 PM         

it has been a bizarre and sleepless week.

i wanted to share my experience in case it proves helpful

#1 A product called rebound, a liquid electrolyte drink for dogs that a breeder recommended to me

#2 Blended raw egg, superior nutrition in raw natural state as dogs/wolves require and can be put in syringe and easily force fed

#3 nutracal of course

all three puppies are ok for now and devouring raw meat based pet foods and thriving like i've never seen them

posted 12-15-2003 09:10 PM         

it is a shame there is an alternative

their breeder raised them on regular pet foods

posted 12-16-2003 10:57 AM         

The truth being what it is, unaffected by my perspective, so here goes...

I mean no disrespect to your perspective...

Forgive me if I go back and forth between ideas as I try to get this out...

Dogs ARE 'domesticated'; for the most part, species to species, we are friends and we respect each other's boundaries and relate to each other as friends.

Kibble or dried pet food is a recent human invention, according to historical accounts, originating in the early 19th century as an idea by grain producers to make profits from their unusable grain scraps.

Dried pet food does not exist in nature in that form and animal digestive systems have not evolved to digest food in that form, and their bodies have not evolved to thrive on food in that form, which is devoid of heat sensitive nutrients, and contains other compounds formed by heat, as well as artificial ingredients and preservatives.

Dogs, of course, are not grain eaters, their digestive system is not designed to thrive on corn, wheat, or rice, let alone such foods that have been baked at high temperatures for long long shelf lives. Mixing grains with meats and baking them fulfills the basic nutritional requirements of dogs more thoroughly and allows their bodies to stay on the planet for a number of years but it isn't thriving as mother nature intended.

Dogs do not attack fields of grain. Feeding dogs grains was a human idea, not nature's design.

What substances are created when such natural foods, undigestible by dogs, but digestible by birds with different organ design, are heated at high temperatures is still the subject of scientific scrutiny, but research already shows the presence of cancer causing chemical compounds created during the heating of foods.

Research also shows such baked foods to be devoid of enzymes, enzymes being the catalyst or 'nutrient' responsible for every reaction in our body from digestion of foods to running organs.

Diets devoid of enzymes promote premature aging and damage to organ systems and tissues. Research on animals fed raw vs cooked diets demonstrates lack of premature aging in organ systems in raw animals vs 'aging' in cooked fed animals. cooked fed animals fed raw diets show recovery from 'premature' aging to differing degrees depending on age and condition.

The reintroduction of a natural diet, as mother nature intended, allows the inherent wisdom in the design of the dog, or cat, or human being, to rebuild a natural body so that it is more likely to die of natural causes, rather than premature causes related to the lack of enzymes, raw fats, proteins, etc., found in mother nature's raw food diet.

What we feed our dogs should not have an effect on who they are in relation to us, if so, the chicken and the meat in their kibble would threaten us, as there is 'cooked blood' in there.

Unless we want to argue that the cooked blood is now no longer blood, which if true, demonstrates that the dog is not getting the natural nutrient he or she is designed to have available for tissue building and repair and maintenance to promote a long and healthy life. A basic part of a dog's natural diet is blood, even if they have been bred to have specific physical appearances, such as the Maltese.

I have eaten raw meat, dried meat, raw fish, raw eggs, and am no more or less loving, though it does make me aware of my relationship to other creatures and that I am feeding on their flesh. It is sobering.

It is easy to forget when such foods are 'cooked', but I am not eating human beings, just becoming more aware that I am actually eating other creatures on this earth besides fruits and vegetables. It makes me aware of my relationship to them as predator, somewhat a reluctant one still, which perhaps is your concern for dogs getting bloodthirsty, but remember, we have boundaries that define our relationship.

Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and during that time have been living with human beings peacefully, and during that time have been eating meat scraps, raw and cooked and partially cooked, from our hands.

We coexist like alligators and that little bird that cleans the gator's teeth and gets its meal from such teeth cleaning.

Dogs and humans are friends.

The recent introduction of grain based pet foods doesn't change the nutritional requirements of dogs or their relationship to us, as I have witnessed this by feeding puppies and dogs raw food. All I see is that their personalities and energy are more vibrant, their health improved, etc.

Our cat has been raw for 5 years now and doesn't hunt and eat animals, though occasionally will kill a bird. The only time she ate one was when I took the dead bird she gave us and put it on her dinner plate.

Perhaps there is a concern with larger more aggressive breeds becoming 'bloodthirsty', but that this is a concern doesn't mean that the concern is valid. Perhaps people feared Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, but did he?

Remember dogs eat from the hand that feeds them, and rarely hunt even when given the opportunity. THough I did know a highly intelligent sheltie who used to eat both dried food, table food, and hunt and eat small animals such as rabbits that he would find in our neighborhood. It does happen.

My whole approach to raw foods is that it isn't my place to interfere with mother nature's intended diet for dogs and their natural nutritional needs. It's like playing russian roulette with their lives. I would rather take my chances with them staying loving, which they do, because that is their nature.

My wife has a dog walking client who just switched her maltese puppy to raw foods and he is simply more playful, more bright and more energetic, he is just more himself.

That is all raw foods have done to me, and that is what they do to dogs and cats, just allow them to be who they are as 'god' or nature intended.

That being said, dogs live a long time on dried foods, but there is a positive correlation between the emergence and introduction of pet foods and the need for veterinary care for diseases that used to be reserved for 'civilized man'.

Arthritis, cancer, heart disease, etc.

The best book to read on the subject is Give Your Dog a Bone by Dr. Ian Billinghurst an Australian vet who witnessed the change in dog health during the 60's when modern pet foods were introduced there (Australia being behind the USA's pet food movement by several decades)

As far as your fear of bloodthirst, all I have noticed is an even greater excitment and appreciation for food when I give them raw food, it is a treat for them, but even more so because it is their natural diet, their desires for food are completely satiated by raw foods. It is fulfillment for them.

As far as my pups not eating, I still don't know what happened. One of them had an irritated tongue, perhaps, all I can think of, is some cleaning solution residue on something, but I don't know. The other ones, I'm not sure of either, unless it was some undiagnosed by vet condition, but they are great now. Just the little one with the tongue, which is healed, is still a worry, because he has to be watched. He still won't eat regularly on his own, and gets spacy/hypoglycemic. We have to prompt him, or force feed him, until he realizes his appetite. And then make sure he doesn't eat too much, which causes him to throw up.

RAw foods are easier on the digestive system than baked foods which have no enzymes to aid in digestion, so I'm feeding him raw foods which he eats voraciously, when he feels like eating.

I'm rambling, but I would happy to answer any question as opposed to simply trying to form a lecture on the topic.

posted 12-16-2003 08:29 PM         

Saddam discussions should be posted over our general board. Please stay on topic !

BTW (could not help it, but hey I’m the admin )-
Saddam DID use WOD on his own people and neighboring countries. What ever WOD left are yet to be found.....it is only a matter of time.

posted 12-17-2003 09:49 AM         

Anyway, it is an interesting thing that Collie of yours. The Sheltie I knew that would hunt was incredibly loving, he just knew where to get a meal if he needed one. There are thousands of people feeding their dogs raw, and more and more raw pet food companies emerging each year. I will go visit a raw food email list and see if anyone has had any problems with aggression. I've never heard of it, or read about it in the numerous raw food feeding books I've read. As far as what quantity of cooked vs raw meat people have been feeding their dogs over thousands of years, I haven't a clue as I wasn't there, but it seems likely to me that they ate scraps, as well as raw meat after hunts. Would make an interesting research project.

Thing is, it still comes back to what is most natural for the dog, IMO. How can I deprive a dog of what its natural design evolved to eat?

You may want to visit http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/PottsCats.html

posted 12-17-2003 09:58 AM         

i'm starting to think that when they don't eat, besides losing glucose they lose b12 from the liver and this may affect their appetite until their b12 levels come back up

posted 12-17-2003 02:32 PM         

which anti biotics do you keep on hand??

i want to learn as much as i can

i talked to the distributor of one of the raw food products that i carry and feed my cat and pups and she said she had never heard of raw food making a dog aggressive

and with cats they've found they become more affectionate

mine was raw from the day we got her from the humane society so i can't testify to that

she was surprised about your collie, unless he was starving she thought it was bizarre that he would behave that way

one thing i will say i have noticed is that possessively geared puppies will get snappy over food they really like when competing with the other pups, but this is worst with canned food, which is highly addictive

i can definitely see if i lived on a farm with chickens and turkeys running around and i was feeding raw chicken and turkey based foods that the dog, depending on breed or temperment, might hunt, but this is the right idea for the dog, just an inconvenience for the farmer

baby seals that are orphaned apprently have to be taught by humans to hunt once reintroduced into the water. i can see if the dog grows up eating kibble on a farm that it might just never get the idea that it can eat the chicken

but living in suburbia, i see little risk of that, and actually, come to think of it, when i walked dogs in boston there were two dogs, one a boxer (fed dried food) who would hunt and kill squirrels in the boston common and a one eyed black scot terrier who chased and chased with a fury any squirrel and probably would have killed it if he could catch one. also wanted to kill wheels, any size, on roller blades or bikes

what it comes to with me is what nutrients the dog gets for its organ development and maintenance so i can avoid later health problems, 5-15 years later, so that they don't get kidney disease or heart disease or torn ligaments like my now deceased dog food raised dogs.

these shouldn't happen in dogs, if so, the wild dog would have died out long ago without veterinary care

cooked food dogs with arthritis, hip dysplasia, tumors, etc, often recover on raw foods

a friend of mine had a blind 18 - 19 year old mutt with a tumor on his head. while my friend was staying with his dad for a short while(it was his childhood dog) and the dog was still walking around, he started feeding him raw eggs and the tumor shrank away

he still needed to be put to sleep some months later because he was going downhill, but i wonder had my friend's dad kept him with raw foods if other conditions might have improved

and it is that wondering that makes me not want to take any chances, with myself or the dogs

posted 12-19-2003 05:49 PM         

I feed my dogs, and always have, top of the line dog kibble along with SOME (once in a while), dare I say it, canned food. Is there a valid argument in regards to whether or not the dog kibble is genetically (or in any other way) tampered/altered with during the heating process or any other process? Yes, there absolutely is! But, I look at the issue from both sides.

Just about any food you buy, whether it be raw or cooked, in some way is altered. For example, fish from the sea/ocean. The fish that live in the waters of this world are exposed to massive amounts of toxins that is a result of human negligence. Studies have proven that the fish when eaten do have negative health affects to the consumer of the fish. So, your dog/cat/etc. is in some way or another going to be exposed to the toxins in the fish they eat regardless of whether or not it is cooked or raw.

Now let's talk about raw meat. A vast majority of farmers feed what to their livestock? Yes, that's right, they feed them grains. And we all apparently know what is done to grains that isn't exactly healthy. Not to mention, most farmers also have their livestock on steroids to "bulk them up." So, in a round-about way, the cosumer, whether it be a dog or human, is eating the animal which was feed "bad grains" along with steroids. You just can't escape it folks.

Candidly speaking, almost all food that we eat and our pets eat is not necessarily 100% safe health wise. I feed my dogs top of the line kibble and they are as lively and as healthy as could ever be.

In addition, my neighbor, and another family friend right down the street, just so happen to be vets. They, along with numerous other vets that I personally know, feed their dogs "regular pet food." And I can personally attest, each of their dog(s) are exceptionally heatlhy. When I see those vets INTENTIONALLY feed their dog(s) kibble that says something about whether they feel safe in feeding their dogs "regual pet food." And out of all people, they would know what is best! Please do note though, the kibble they feed their dog(s) is top of the line pet food.

So, I guess my opinoin would be this: feed your dog/cat whatever you feel is the healthiest. But please don't be fooled into thinking that just because it is raw, you are saving them from harmful toxins and other problems with "regular pet food."

I will now step off my soapbox,
Kristi

posted 01-01-2004 06:02 PM         

but what is best is different from what is taught

my vet recommends science diet

science diet's main ingredient is corn meal

dogs did not evolve to live on baked corn meal

regular pet food keeps vets in business

posted 01-01-2004 09:38 PM         

There is a lot of information within the article, but every bit of it is worth reading!

This article is based upon factual information, which in turn is what is taught to most vets. As a result, this just might be why most vets make the well-informed and wise decision to advise their clients, without hesitation, to feed their dogs a high quality dog kibble.

In Response To scrappy:
"vets are now taught that regular pet food is best..."
And for a good reason, as the article proves.

"but what is best is different from what is taught"
I must disagree with that statement for obvious reasons.

"science diet's main ingredient is corn meal
dogs did not evolve to live on baked corn meal"
The article will help explain why that is not a valid point.

"regular pet food keeps vets in business"
I would doubt that.

This is not meant to be taken offensively, just my opinions!

Have a Great Day,
Kristi

[This message has been edited by MyBabyShihPoo (edited 01-01-2004).]

posted 01-02-2004 02:57 AM         

one of my bitches eats the carcus of a chicken but only after its been boiled but she has eaten them since before i got her.