posted 03-19-2004 08:54 PM         

quote:

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Like, one guy told me you never breed a male back to his dam, but it is okay to breed a female back to his sire. Is this true?

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No thats not true at all. That wouldn't really make sense, why would it be ok to double up traits of a male and not a female?

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I ask because my female had a litter, and if this one male turns out like I think he will, I want to eventually breed him back to his dam.

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Why would you think about doing this? I'm just wondering, yes inbreeding can be a good tool. So what has this bitch possesed and passed that you see in the male and thinks its a good idea to have him produce a litter with her?
Inbreeding can cause real problems when not using a good foundation. By not having health test and the health BACKGROUND of both dogs knowing the genetics of them and the faults they also had. Inbreeding even if both dogs are CH, have good temperaments, and check out with good health/hips, ect can still produce a litter of bad pups by inbreeding, sometimes these hidden characterists pop back up.

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Please - don't flame me for being a breeder, and don't try to tell me I'm a BYB just because I'm not as knowledgable as some.

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From what I can tell you are a BYB. Having knowledge is part of being a responsible breeder. Obtaining the knowledge before you start breeding. But someone can have lots of knowledge and still be a BYB if they are not using the knowledge they have. You admit on a different thread you have only had your dogs for 2 years, yet you have dogs produced page, a current for sale and are still planning on breeding. So without aquiring proper knowledge on APBTs, breeding, ect you went ahead and bred. And from what I can tell on the site none of the dogs have titles or health testing info either.

Responsible breeders have to start someone, but its not by breeding prematurely. Its by reading and researching, talking to breeders, finding the right dogs, finding a mentor probably someone you bought a dog from, learning more by being at the shows around breeders, learning about breeding inside and out, then doing everything right with your dogs after you have learned how to do so.

posted 03-19-2004 09:26 PM         

"You admit on a different thread you have only had your dogs for 2 years, yet you have dogs produced page, a current for sale and are still planning on breeding."

Yes, I've only had my dogs for 2 years, but I've spent those 2 years trying to learn what I can. The exact reason I'm asking questions on this board. Yes, I have a produced page - both litters 2 years apart - 1st one was a back yard breeding, I'll admit. I knew really nothing of the breed at the time. And as stated, this recent one was not indended - my male unfortunately got to my female. The current for sale, is from the litter I just spoke of. And yes, I plan to breed in the future - that doesn't mean I have my dogs breeding right now.

"Responsible breeders have to start someone, but its not by breeding prematurely. Its by reading and researching, talking to breeders, finding the right dogs, finding a mentor probably someone you bought a dog from, learning more by being at the shows around breeders, learning about breeding inside and out, then doing everything right with your dogs after you have learned how to do so."

What do you think I'm trying to do here?

"So what has this bitch possesed and passed that you see in the male and thinks its a good idea to have him produce a litter with her?"

First and foremost, the most awesome temperament I have ever seen in ANY dog.

"And from what I can tell on the site none of the dogs have titles or health testing info either."

Again - first breeding was stupid (granted intentional), but I did not do my homework before that breeding. And the second was not intended.

"By the way breeding for structure isn't a legitimate reason."

So, I suppose those 100+ lbs "pits" are okay as long as they have good temperaments, health testing and titles? Perhaps I should have said conformation instead of structure.

I truely do appreciate your reply, and appologize if I seemed b*tchy in my response back to you, but I truely resent being called a BYB. I'm trying my best to research as much as possible to be the exact opposite of BYB. Anyway, you answered my question, and I thank you for that.

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Amanda
Spencer Pits www.geocities.com/spencerpits

posted 03-19-2004 10:21 PM         

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What do you think I'm trying to do here?

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Here is not the right place. You shouldn't learn about breeding and ask questions on a message board. I do think it can be good, ask for things here and there, hear different people opinions, ect. But it isn't a good research source, there are lots of good and bad breeders on message boards, people doing things right, wrong semi-responsible, ect So what you get off the net could be false info. Researching just about anything on the net isn't a good idea. Reading books, breeding publications, and talking to responsible breeders is where you should be doing your research. But yes I'd like you to ask more questions and feel free to, just don't take some one's word for it off the net or expect to find all the info you need. Thats what a lot of people do, they ask these questions without ever really researching the info given to them.

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First and foremost, the most awesome temperament I have ever seen in ANY dog.

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Thats not a good reason to breed a dog. There are many great dogs out there with awesome temperaments, but of pet quality. Its DEFINATLY something you want when breeding, but not a reason to breed a dog. I was just talking with some one who's dogs are like their children, who has a female with the "best temperament" and does therapy with it too. Thats not a reason to breed it only mean you have a nice dog and a good pet.

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So, I suppose those 100+ lbs "pits" are okay as long as they have good temperaments, health testing and titles? Perhaps I should have said conformation instead of structure.

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No those I don't agree with. Those are not real APBTs, they are nothing like a true pit, have no conformation. Those are dogs bred for structure which I don't agree with. Those breeders hardly do health testing, only a small percentage have titles and those are weight pull titles. Most are just bred for size and sold in the papers as monster pit bulls. Who knows what kind of temperaments some may come out with.

Conformation I understand, but if you haven't titled them in conformation then its kind of hard to breed them with correct conformation. They haven't been placed up against the other dogs out their, measured to a standard and shown to be true. A few of your dogs are also too large to be competing in the conformation events so how does that work out? If you can't show them? Then you could certainly breed them for weight pull, but that wouldn't be conformation, still good and you could still use dogs of good conformation and correct structure in weight pull even if they are too large to show in conformation. But thats where you need a judges assesment, unless you have a lot of experience and can be honest with yourself.
I also wouldn't suggest buying CKC(unless thats Canadian Kennel Club) registered dogs to use as part of a breeding program.

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I'm trying my best to research as much as possible to be the exact opposite of BYB. Anyway, you answered my question, and I thank you for that.

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That is great and I'm glad for this fact. Most people could care less. I'm glad you acme to this board, there are a lot of people here with real knowledge and experience. You can get a lot of questions ask and hopefully with the correct answers.

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As a side note, I'd love to go to dog shows to title my dogs, but when I'm working 6 and 7 days a week, I don't have the time.

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If you don't have time to do these things, then you probably don't have time to breed dogs. It takes lots of time and money. I understand you said in the future you would like to breed and your taking the time to research, but how will you in the future be able to titled your dogs, health test them, stay at home with the litter, do this do that, run here, run there. That would mean a change in your work and lifestyle. Breeding is very challenging undertaking, even more so to do it right. I know several people who have 5 or 6 pits, all altered pets who would like to breed in the future. They know at this point in their life they don't have the time or assets to do so.

When I talk I'm usually right to the point. I'm not trying to be rude by this, I don't want to beat around the bush and I want to make sure that I'm clear on what I'm trying to say.

It can be difficult to get good dogs. They don't always turn out like they are expected. By starting with sub quality you can easily end up with low quality. I read on the other thread you had a dog have an alergic reation, and the dam to the pup gets a spot, a hive of some sort. Would these be the dogs you are planning on using for breeding? There lots of dogs like this and people still breed them, its no wonder why many bullies are prone to severe allergies. My BYB Boxer just died yesterday she suffered from bad allergies and other health problems because the BYBs created her from there sub quality dogs. You can even start with decent dogs, but if you are not careful end up with low quality. You have to always know when to cull, some people fail to do this. It can cause a nice line to turn ugly when the breeder chooses not to cull. Don't hestitate to do so. I'm glad your taking the time to learn. Just be patient and keep researching. There is a lot of things to consider. Health history. The bloodlines on your dogs? The potential offpring that may come from a certain breeding. My favorite dog(female) is only a prospect right now, but already I like everything about her and she is doing great. I'm almost certain she will turn out, but she may not. If she does then I may possibly breed her in a couple years. So she could start her breeding in a couple years. I have looked a some very nice, prospective studs, I still cannot choose which I would use being that I'm still not sure about her. Things change, I don't know what she will be like then and what she may be the best choice. Right now I'm looking at studs by pedigree, bloodlines, traints, and the degree they have been proven to. So i've got about 7 I'm looking at down to the top 4-5 there are still some that may not want to go with her, but could still be beneficial somewhere else.

posted 03-20-2004 12:06 AM         

Here is a site that explains the UKC APBT standard in great depth (don't know of any that do for ADBA), also gives tons of information on breeding, genetics (which one should have at least basic knowledge of before breeding any dogs, nevermind two that are closely related), health testing, titling, etc dogs. http://apbtconformation.com/

What exactly is the goal of your breeding program? That's something you need to know in order to properly plan your breedings. Ultimately, every breeder should be striving to produce their "perfect" dog (which hopefully is also a good example of the breed), and every breeding should contribute towards that goal, and have a purpose.

quote:

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Also, I may get flamed for this, but another reason for breeding him back to his dam is to try for more white pups.

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posted 03-20-2004 12:25 AM         

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Amanda
Spencer Pits www.geocities.com/spencerpits

posted 03-20-2004 12:26 AM         

Basically look for the main things. Sound, trustworthy temperament, alert, condifdent, good conformation, appearance, healthy looking, not thin or fat, healthy dog/pup, good pedigree and history, everything has to be in the package.

posted 03-20-2004 12:29 AM         

She had an Albino!! That isn't good at all, no inbreeding there. It may be a good idea to get her spayed like you said. How old are the pups from the 1st and 2nd litter?

posted 03-20-2004 01:46 AM         

Then at that point, get yourself a few (or only one, a single quality dog is better than several mediocre dogs) good dogs, dogs you feel represent what you want, and build from them towards your ultimate APBT.

posted 03-20-2004 08:46 AM         

[This message has been edited by GinaH (edited 03-20-2004).]

posted 03-20-2004 05:29 PM         

Just trying to save you some anguish down the line. You just never know whats in store in the world of breeding....

PS. Just a note that I am not necessarily condoning anyone just to breed, but if they are going to do it, they need to know what they're doing.

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REDCOAT KENNELS
Home of the chocolate/rednose!

posted 03-21-2004 09:49 AM         

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*Luckily* not one of those 3 pups have had any problems with health, temperament, hearing, conformation, etc.

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10 weeks old is way to young to tell if the dog will develop health problems, always have a good temperament and conformation can change big time. Even the albino at age 1.5 years could definately develop poor health down the line. My Boxer was about 2.5 years before all her bad traits/health started showing up, temperament and all.

posted 03-21-2004 12:04 PM         

Quote:
(I disagree about me being a BYB. This breeding was totally unintentional, but we were fortunate that the pups are great.)
Quote:
(My dogs are inside dogs, but no, I NEVER leave them out of their crate unsupervised. At the time I didn't have a crate for Sammy, so he was tied to the bottom of our couch on a 6 foot lead (I know - that's ghetto and inhumane, but we just hadn't got a crate for him yet. Well, one day I came home and Maggie was out romping around. Since Sammy was the only male we had then, and they were inside the house - well, you get the picture. Don't ask why I didn't spay Maggie after her 1st litter, because I have no good excuse - lazziness, too busy, whatever.)

posted 03-21-2004 05:17 PM         

"She had an Albino!! That isn't good at all"

But in a seperate, unrealated thread, you said:

"I like Dobies. They are certainly different than pits but I like them. I always wanted an albino one, I guess just because of the way they look."

If albinos are so bad (which, yes, I know they are because of so many genetic defects such as deafness, temperament problems, etc.), then how can you say you've always wanted and albino Dobie? Again, not trying to start anything, just wondering.

posted 03-21-2004 06:17 PM         

The albinos have to go somewhere right? They deserve loving pet homes too? Sold on a spay/neuter contract. She did have an albino, that isn't good. A BYB would think that is great and sell it for more saying its rare and someone ends up with a sick unhealthy dog. A BYB would probably breed that son back to his mom thinking there might be a chance to get a couple albinos to bring in the money.

I do like the looks of the albino dobies and would consider getting one. It would probably be hard to find one from a responsible breeder. Maybe they would have one, even from a litter of rescues. In this day and age most people won't put down dogs with defects like they did back in the day. It is important to still cull so they are sold as pets. They would I'm sure inform me of all the possible health problems the albinos would have being that albinoism is a defect, it not normal and comes with health problems. They would make sure I was up to owning one of these dogs(Dobes) period, but take extra care and stonger caution being its an albino. No where in my post did I ever say albino dogs should be bred, ect. I do like that they are "odd balls". They look rather beautiful and mysterious. I said I like how they look, I would want. But after the death of my Boxer I'm unsure how I could cope with having another dog with health problems and a short life span

posted 03-21-2004 08:06 PM         

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The pup I thought was an albino had a white coat, blue eyes, pink nose, and one little brown spot on her cheek. Since she had the brown spot, does that mean she wasn't albino?

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She could be? I read on some site when I was looking up info on albinos that they can be partially white? They have pink or icy blue eyes. Maybe some one else can better answer this. But here is a pic of an albino king snake.

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And just FYI - the 2 male pups out of this recent litter weren't albino, just white (black nosed also).

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Yeah I think you mentioned that before in a previous post? It doesn't really matter, they are both her sons and could be carrying the trait for albinism as well as the non-white pups. I only used the male because you mentioned breeding him to her at the start of this thread. Albino is recessive mutant gene, dogs carrying it produce albinos, believe that inbreeding dogs that *are* well we know she does for sure, a son(hypothetically/possibly) carrying the albino trait are going to have a higher chance of producing albino pups and probably more than 1 pup in the litter would be albino. Thats what inbreeding does. I was using it as an example of what one of these breeders might try to accomplish. Either that or would have kept the albino female and bred her back to her sire. Here is the deal with albino Dobies.

"In November 1976, a mutation occurred with the whelping of a cream colored Doberman.

Her sire, dam, and litter-mates were normal colored black and tans. She had pale blue eyes, pink nose, eye rims, pads and membranes. Where tan markings would be they were Albino.

She was bred to a dominant black male, producing 14 black and tan pups. A male and female were kept and all ran loose. Her son sired her next litter, which contained 2 Albino males. He was also bred to his sister and her litter contained 2 Albino bitches. Later, these Albinos were bred together producing all Albinos."

Sad isn't it. Had anyone known maybe they would have been more responsible. Of course allowing dogs unaltered to run loose together and inbred isn't very responsible in the first place.

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Also, on that same thread - someone said that albinos have red eyes. Is that true or complete BS (as far as dogs go, anyway)?

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posted 03-21-2004 08:24 PM         

There are two pics of her, one close up, and one with 3 of her siblings. Looking at the close-up, I'm now thinking her eyes were/are green. You can't see the brown spot in that pic, but you can see it in the pic of her with her siblings. If it doesn't work for you, I can email the pictures. By the way - the pup I'm talking about is "Angel"

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Amanda Spencer www.geocities.com/spencerpits

posted 03-22-2004 03:22 PM         

"A few of your dogs are also too large to be competing in the conformation events so how does that work out?"

I have to disagree with you on this. It is my understanding that you want a 1:3 height/weight ratio. My male, Sammy is 21" at the withers and around 63 lbs. That is exactly a 1:3 ratio. I'm not saying he doesn't have other faults, or that he's not a little big compared to the average pit, but he is proportional. And my female, Maggie is currently 51 lbs and 19" tall. That is a 1:2.68 ratio. She is a little light for her height, but she is still proportional.

Quote from http://apbtconformation.com/

"The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy."

posted 03-22-2004 04:56 PM         

This bitch is 17" and 35lbs chain weight. Not 51lbs.

This one is 18" @ 37lbs

posted 03-22-2004 05:38 PM         

Also - is a 3:1 ratio incorrect then? I got that information from that same site that was recommended for a better understanding of conformation. It says:

"The words correct proportion of weight to height leave too much to be interpreted and will lead to judges putting up overly massive dogs. Lets consider an average male APBT according to the standard with a height of 18.5 inches and a weight of 55 lbs. This is a proper ratio of almost 1:3. Females should rarely have ratios higher than 1:3.5. Ratios for males can climb as high as 1:4."

Now I'm more confused than ever...lol.

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Amanda Spencer www.geocities.com/spencerpits

posted 03-22-2004 06:37 PM         

It comes from his sire ACE (almost CH) Super Nova

I actually think his brother looks more like he has staff in him to me. In a way resembles one.
ACE Up N Atem he is 38lbs

posted 03-22-2004 06:41 PM         

quote:

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"The words correct proportion of weight to height leave too much to be interpreted and will lead to judges putting up overly massive dogs. Lets consider an average male APBT according to the standard with a height of 18.5 inches and a weight of 55 lbs. This is a proper ratio of almost 1:3. Females should rarely have ratios higher than 1:3.5. Ratios for males can climb as high as 1:4."

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I don't know what to tell you about that. What kind of site is it? Maybe it was UKC? Those dogs run bigger. I can't think of seeing a dog 18.5" being 55lbs!! Or a male having a ratio of 1:4.

AmStaff's weren't meant to be huge dogs either. People breed them bigger and more exaggerated. Now thats a lot of what you see placing, something that looks far from what it should be. I can't imagine 90lbs. There are so called APBTs at that size. Guess you will just need to check his ped and see what all he consist of. Could be Staff or not.

posted 03-22-2004 06:48 PM         

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Amanda Spencer www.geocities.com/spencerpits

posted 03-22-2004 07:32 PM         

Also, the breeder said that she wrote him a check, and it bounced! He finally got his money, but that is exactly why I never accept checks from anyone for anything.
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Amanda Spencer www.geocities.com/spencerpits

posted 03-22-2004 07:35 PM         

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I was told he was Jeep/Camelot (which I don't believe, but whatever).

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I'm curios as to why you wouldn't believe this? That is your answer right there Camelot blood. Those dogs run into the 100lbs and are allegedly mixed with some other breed.
Here is a link http://www.petersonpitbull.com/males/index.html

Here is one @ 97lbs

posted 03-22-2004 09:30 PM         

If the brindle pup is actually a blue brindle, his eyerims and nose will be blue, as any black pigment will be diluted to blue by the gene that causes the color. That's the easiest way to tell.

Here are our two:
Goo at 21", 55 lbs or so

posted 03-23-2004 05:21 AM         

Finally found a site to remote link my pics from. Hope this works. These aren't the best pics in the world, but here they are. They are of my boy Guage.

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Amanda Spencer www.geocities.com/spencerpits

[This message has been edited by spencerpits (edited 03-23-2004).]

posted 03-23-2004 05:38 AM         

He also has a blueish cast on the inner part of his ears. Basically, everywhere that should be pinkish, is blueish. ?????