GOLDEN RETRIEVER - TO KEEP OR NOT...

:cry:

We own a 1 year old "fixed" female Golden Retriever "pure bred". She growls and bares her teething when you approach her dish, go near her bone, etc. She sometimes growls at small children. She has nipped at both my daughter (7 yr) and my niece (3 yr) - fortunately she didn't break the skin, yet she did leave marks. The growling occurs even when my wife or I approach her dish. She has never bitten either of us, but still snarls and growls.

She is very passive and affectionate when not around young children and even rolls on her back when she meets new people, or when with us.

We've tried to define her position in our family "pack" by periodically rolling her on her back and holding her there for a bit. She also is not fed until the rest of us finish eating dinner. My daughter is the one who feeds her and tells her to "stay" until she decides the dog can eat.

We've heard about a company called "Bark Busters" and we are considering hiring them to see if they can correct this behavior. However, we've been quoted a price of $450 (US) for just a 3 hour visit, which is extemely expensive in my opinion.

We don't want to risk someone getting serious hurt by our dog and/or suing us because of her actions.

We're on the fence of keeping her. Does anyone know if "Bark Busters" really works? Does anyone else have similar experiences?

Our last Golden was 12 years old when we had to put her down. She was very loving towards children and NEVER nipped or showed any signs of agression towards anyone. Needless to say, we're somewhat disappointed with our present dog.

 

I think the dog can since you are disapointed, it will never be your old dog, it is something that is very hard to come to grips with and once there is no more comparison, I think things would get better. But maybe you should get rid of her, maybe someone here will rescue her, because the shelters aren't full enough. I am sorry if I seem angry, I just got done reading a post with so may dogs ready to be PTS, I can'T handle someone talking about getting rid of there dog, obviously there are alot of issues going on here. For one I don't think there is a need to roll her on her back to prove your dominance, by doing that, it only scares the dog more and probably makes her more aggressive. Treat her with more postive stuff, don'T do anything negative. There are alot of post here that deal with training dogs, which is what I think you need to read up on, if you are worried about spending too much money on the bhaviorist. It could be something that you could solve yourself, with more postive reinforcement. But I don'T know anything about Bark Busters. But I do know when you take a dog into your family, it is your responsibilty to take care of it, don'T send it to a shelter or put it to sleep.

 

I sent you a PM about rehoming your dog if you are going to be interested in doing this.
I also live in NH and have never heard of Bark Busters (which means nothing actually). I've also heard that the roll thing holding the dog down just instill fear in the dog as it is causing them stress being held down on their back - a very vulnerable position for a dog.

I don't know where you live in NH otherwise I could suggest a couple of trainers. I'm in the Plymouth area - Ebony Kennel has some good people you could also try....

 

IT sounds to me like this is just a situation of your dog being possessive of her belongings- I think they call it "resource guarding." This is actually a fairly common problem and can be corrected with the proper training. What we did with our dog, because she used to growl when we took her toys away, was to get a squirt bottle and fill it with cold water. Then, when she growled at us, we would squirt her & take away the toy, saying "no" in a stern voice. We kept trying this with her until she didn't growl when we reached for the toy, then I praised her lavishly, let her keep the toy and gave her a treat. By doing this, we taught her that NOT growling was a better way for her to keep her belongings than to growl. That's just what worked for us- you may want to try it. Seeing has how she's such a great dog otherwise, it would be a shame to give up on her for this one reason.

 

Hi and welcome, the kind of aggression you are describing is very common as puggleowner said and can be correct. As for nipping the kids. Are the teasng her. hti is very common in kids to poke, pull too hard etc, and many dogs dont like this. or mjust mayb the way she is being approached by them she feels threantened.

I have attached some sites for you to read up on. I do think this barkbusters sounds expensive. I would call around and find a behavourist that specializes in aggression. From what people have oist here its about $75 an hour. I would seek the proper help and let them guide you in in your deicsionmaking process to train and or find another home. As the the rolling you are doing, there is a lot of controversy there. some people swear by it, others say it makes the dog more aggressive.


http://www.doggiedoor.com/aggressi.shtml
http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0182.htm

http://www.doglogic.com/possess.htm

http://www.ahimsadogtraining.com/handou ... rding.html

 

First of all, Welcome to the board! I agree with puggleowner and honeybears, this is a trainable issue and that Bark Busters sounds WAY out of $$ range for what you need. I also have seen the "rolling" technique do more harm in re-enforcing aggression rather than breaking a dog of it. She sounds like a wonderful dog other than this issue and this issue is a common one. I have a 20 week old German Shepherd/Lab and he is going through the growling when he is approached by my kids during dinner time. He does not growl at my husband or myself, just the kids and only regarding his food. Not toys, etc. So, we are working with hm much in the way honeybears described (almost identically actually!) There are some great resources on this board for training so you should be able to get some really valuable advice. Hang in there and see if you can't find the right fit for you guys and keep your dog. I'd hate to see her have to be relocated over a fixable issue but I understand your concerns as well.

 

Is this a new dog or have you had her since she was a puppy? I agree with some of the other posters suggestions. I've never heard of "Bark Busters" but I'm betting that you could find a trainer/behaviorist at a more affordable rate in your area. I would call around and discuss your situation with a few trainers over the phone to find one that can help you work through this or decide if you need to rehome the dog.

If she growls because of bones/chews I would stop giving them to her for now unless you can place her in a seperate room away from children and people while she enjoys her bone. I would also immediately stop feeding her from a bowl....remove her food bowl from the floor and begin feeding her one kibble at a time by hand and make her work for her food while using the NILIF program.

Here is a link about NILIF:
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

 

Wow, I appreciate everyone's input on this matter.

First, and foremost (lil96), we would NEVER put the dog to sleep unless it was an issue of the dog being terminally ill (like our last Golden was). We do know it is our responsibilty to care for the dog, but it also our responsibility to ensure that no one is injured by the dog. People first, dog second.

Second, we were rolling the dog on her back as suggested by an in-home dog trainer (6 1 Hr visits) we hired to "curb" the dominance thing. We will cease this "therapy" to see if it changes her behavior.

As I've mentioned earlier, we usually have our daughter feed the dog and not let the dog eat until after we have finished our dinner. I like the hand feeding suggestion and will try this approach too. I also like the squirt bottle and have heard of it being used to curb other behavior.

We have stuck with Goldens since they are loyal and gentle animals in our past experience. We purchased this one from a registed breeder and she has a good bloodline. I have not yet contacted the breeder to find out if he has had other complaints about agressive behavior in her siblings.

Mary_NH, I live South of Manchester, NH. However, I will check out the kennel you recommend.

Thanks to everyone!

 

There is just no comparison between a year old pup and a 12 yo. The 12 yo had a livetime of learning, exposure and may be completely different in personality. First, is this growling, which is a warning sign btw, only happening when there is food or toys present? What do you do/say when she growls? What was the situation when she nipped the kids?

Take her to the vet to rule out a painful medical problem that could be causing her get protective and lash out. Pain can change a dog. Please check out Jean Donaldson's book "Culture Clash" and another called "Mine". These two books help put things into perspective about food guarding, dominance and debunks many myths etc.

This is when she is not feeling threatened. You need to assess situation. What is different when she is doing this as opposed to when she is growling.

This is a big NO NO, I don't know what trainer recommended you do this but modern training has brought to our attention that is not the way to establish dominance. This is a threatening position, and likely to cause more harm than good.

I would learn more about this place first before investing possibly unnecessarily. What type of training? Who does the training?

I sense a real miscommunication going on here. Your whole family needs to work with the dog in a positive manner. Reward when she does what is asked, and start by hand feeding in small increments. You control the food and she needs to learn not to feel threatened! I don't know what your kids are like with her and if they know the proper treatment of animals. But something is not right. I'd like to go into this further because there is so much more to it but im just too tired tonight. So perhaps you can start with and get some insight from these articles and the books i mentioned.
Articles by Suzanne Clothier
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/aggressionbasics.html
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/attitude.html
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/probtips.html

 

Jas's response made me think about how children have been around the dog. Have your children been taught how to be gentle around dogs? The fact that she seems to be better around adults then children makes me wonder if she has had any bad experiences with children. I know my dog is very leary of children because they are too rough with her and make very quick movements that she feels threatened by. Maybe this is the case with your dog. Some dogs don't mind children being rough with them, wresting with them, tugging on hair and tails, etc, but other dogs really get affected by it.

 

I agree with the hand feeding. The dog will see that you are giving, not taking. That it is not a bad thing to have people near food. Have everyone in the family be a part of it. Make sure the kids are not teasing as they do sometimes. A dominant dog can do the submisive back roll but have a totally different train of thought. If it feels threatened in any way, it may bite. With you hold a dominate dog down I think this can happen. My dog would roll on her back but have a very scarey look in her eyes as if to say only certain people are allowed to touch her. She was a hard dog to learn to read. But I have.

 

One thing I educated all the new puppy owners on, was feeding. Always mess with them while they are feeding. "POSITIVELY" stick your fingers in their food while they are eating, brush them, pet them....move the food bowl around. Also put one morsal at a time in the bowl while sitting there. Iknow boring. But it teaches them that you give the food and do what you want, not them.

I also reccommed when playing with toys. ALWAYS stop when YOU want to NOT the puppy. This also teaches them that you are alpha not them.

 

Jas said everything I was thinking. Your problem is called "resource guarding" and Jean Donalson's book "Mine" is awesome (http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB740). Get it and use it! It can be corrected but you need to get on top of it.

Rolling the dog won't help and can hurt. Having the people eat first is really one of those myths but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and do it.

There was a site I linked to recently....when I find it I will come back and post it. It talks about how to make sure you are the pack leader. Mostly it has to do with using the NILIF program = Nothing in Life is Free. The dog has to perform a trick or command before ANYTHING he wants.

But do get the book "Mine" and try the information out.

 

Has anyone else noticed that we have not actually had any more input from BMCCUE? I wonder if we scared them away!

 

I think it was one of the people who come on for a one time question. The probably found something somewhere else and he forgot to check back, but I don't know I think alot of people do that, they don't bookmark or remember what site this is, so they just forget? Just my guess! Hopefully he will come back and read it!

 

I hope so. Resource guarding is serious but it can be fixed. It's not a killing offense.

 

Jamiya- I agree. But, what about total home destruction? Is that a killing offense? :m14: ( :wink: )

 

Not for the dog - Mommy needs to puppy-proof and supervise better. Easier said than done, I know. And there are SOME things that cannot be puppy-proofed - like the couch and the carpet for instance. That's where supervision and crates come into the picture.

Try to keep your sense of humor. You're gonna need it! :shock:

 

now that my mom has moved in i need to RE PUPPY and KITTEN proof everything for instance she takes a whole roll of TP in her room (no idea why) but leaves it on her bed :shock: so guess what i get to do everyday when i go home lol it's torn up all over the whole house and my dogs arnt puppies any more but they do play with the kittens what a mess. I think i need puppy and kitty train grandma [-(

 

Jamiya- Hence the Episodic recant of the day's events! :lol: