Breeding and instincts ...

Howdy,

I have a question for those who might remember (because I sure can't), I'm only on my second APBT, the oldest being 6 1/2 months old the youngest 3...so I'm not sure if its a breed specific thing.

My boy is going to be big(er)...projected at around/over 100pounds like his birth dad.....hes already well on his way at only 6 1/2 months. He has awesome strength muscle/jaw and speed. he's the most loyal dog I've ever owned. only barks when hungry/thirsty/bathroom(thats it!) . HOWEVER, he's never shown any...real protective instincts. He's very trusting and easy going ....like a little puppy trapped in a big dogs body. Is this something that will change once he hits the year point ("said to be" when the APBT's agressive/protective nature shows through)?? Or is this a training issue I should address. I can't remember when my Boxer mix , changed and was protective..shes now about 2 years old. And is pretty good about descernment and protecting the family/house.

I'm trying to get an idea because my newest addition has the personality of a good gaurd/family protector already and shes still very young. my boy was very 'soft spoken'/reserved at her age.


ALSO TO ....people always talk about BYB's and how bad they are. what in your opinion makes a BYB/a bad BYB. And to how would one get into breeding...what tips would you offer as to requirements to be a/a good breeder???

 

Your boy sounds normal. APBTs are not a guard breed, they are a fighting breed, and as such, had to be able to be handled by strangers, passed from home to home, etc, without blinking an eye. Because of that, most are very accepting and outgoing with people, though they may react if their people are really threatened. Most are not good property guards. With your boy being so large, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a little mastiff tossed into the line somewhere (many x-large APBT lines admittedly have mastiff in them, so it's very common), so you may find him taking more towards the mastiff temperament as he matures. For now though, he sounds like a typical APBT.

As far as breeding goes, a good breeder breeds with a goal in mind, the ideal APBT. Every dog bought and breeding planned should bring them closer to that. With the breed being overpopulated as it is, there isn't room for breeding "just because".

A good breeder health tests their dogs for heritary diseases, at the very least, hips (checked for dysplasia, 1/5 of APBTs tested are dysplastic), and heart (Amstaffs are the #1 most affected breed for heart problems, and since they come from APBT stock, if it's in their lines, it's in ours too, and many APBT lines are known to throw heart probs). Many breeders also test for elbow dysplasia (AmStaffs are in the top ten for being affected by this, APBTs haven't been tested enough to have decent stats on), thyroid imbalance (also very common in APBTs), and eye abnormalities/disease. They also check to see that their dogs parents were health cleared, or at the very least, research to see if they had any signs of genetic disease. Most of these tests must be done by specialists (exception being thyroid), but as health testing becomes more common, more and more vets are starting to get the training needed to test, so there are a good number of vets that can do it, and there are websites that lists vets state by state that can do these tests, so they're easy to find. The tests are usually around $100 to $150 total for each, but a lawsuit from someone you sell a dysplastic puppy to will be much higher, plus it's worth it to stack the odds in your favor of producing healthy pups that will live long lives. Being a good breeder is not cheap.

Good breeders also prove their breeding stock, either in real life work, conformation, or dog sports designed to test their strength, trainability, etc. This is a working breed, but since their original purpose is no longer legal, other means must be used to keep them as true to form as possible. Conformation is also important, so even if a breeder doesn't show conformation, their dogs should be free of major faults. Flat feet, weak pasterns, shallow (not deep enough, dog has less wind than it should) or barrel chests (too wide, affects agility and adds unneeded weight), weak angulation (predisposes dogs to ligament tears, and reduces their ability to move freely), overly large size or overly heavy bone (both reduce agility, endurance, and wind, this is a medium breed) are all things that occur in this breed, and affect the dog's ability to do the thing it was originally designed for.

A good breeder screens buyers carefully, and keeps track of where their dogs go. They have a binding legal contract, and a lawyer to back it up if the buyer breaks it. They take back any dogs they sell, which in this breed means they are prepared to seperate a lot of dogs. They have a health guarantee against genetic disease (at least two yrs), and back it up as well.

Here are some links regarding breeding, health testing, etc:

The APBT network, info on conformation, breeding, health tests, diseases common to the breed, etc:
http://www.americanpitbullterrier.org/

Some particular pages there to pay attention to...

Reputable breeders: http://www.americanpitbullterrier.org/R ... reeder.htm

APBT breeding/genetics... if this reads like greek to you, you have much learning to do before breeding: http://www.americanpitbullterrier.org/apbt_genetics.htm

APBT health info: http://www.americanpitbullterrier.org/A ... enter.html

And some more...

Why do health tests?: http://www.terrierman.com/parable.htm

OFA- lists health stats by breed, also one of the main groups for analyzing hips through, click on "stats and data", and you can see how our breed measures up: http://www.offa.org

PennHIP-another hip analysis group: http://www.pennhip.org/

Hip dysplasia info: http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/hd.html

Breeding resources, tons of info on responsible breeding: http://www.raot.org/information/breedin ... ources.htm

 

When reading my pit bull research, I read that pit bulls mature slower thatn other breed of dogs (physically and mentally.) Most breeds are mature and developed at 12 to 14 months. Pit bulls are matured at around 16 months, physically and mentally. So growth and personality traits will not be totally known until then.

Both of my pits (male and female) were obtained from a b.y.b. My male is such a mellow guy (2yrs) who never barks and is a sorry excuse for home protection. He is a doggie's version of a hippie love child. LOVE & PEACE! My female is more protective and slightly dog aggressive. She loves people and friendly cats. (17 months) She will bark at anything that is unfamiliar on her property.

My male is 65 lbs and is very lean, almost skinny. My female is 95 lbs and is bulky and slighty overweight.

Both of my pits are super dogs and the best and easiest dogs I've ever had. I personally think that the females seem to be the most alert and protective and the males seem to be the most passive. In fact, my male Reese is lovingly referred to as a "Noodle Poodle." Birds aren't even afraid of him.

 

Good post Goob, I agree 100%.

Many people are confused about the breeds nature, they are the complete opposite of guard dog, there are guard dog breeds if thats what you want/need. I'm going to be purchasing one to protect my Bulldogs....hehe. I'm thinking of going with a Belgian Malinois.

 

:m25:

 

I'm surprised BronxthePit is asking these questions.... Most reputable resources state that the PitBulls do not make good guard dogs. They are supposed to be naturally people friendly and this is the goal for Pit Bull owners to portray. They can be dog aggressive and this is a BIG difference. I believe that a PitBull will protect their owners from harm but will not do much for protecting the property. Females do seem to be more protective than the males.

One of my stories, as a Staffy Bull owner... Luke would not have hurt anyone unless someone was trying to hurt me. He never barked when anyone knocked or came to the door. He let anyone into the house, but I would have dared anyone to try and hurt me or my family members. He would get very upset when the family would joke around wrestling. He would be beside himself with concern that someone would get hurt.
He loved children and once he met a child, that child was under his guard. I had met a friend and her children at a park one day for a picnic. Luke had never met any of them before. My friends daughters left to go to the bathroom and Luke watched and whined until they came back safe and sound, even though his family stayed with him.
I was careful around other dogs as Luke had to be the "top dog" and as long as the other dog was submissive, they got along fine even becoming great buddies who would play together for hours. He was never out of control and if he did not accept the other dog due to dominance issues, he was not allowed to act inappropriately. I could walk him with a dog that he did not get along with with no problems. It was not acceptable to react badly. (Just to be clear, he was never very aggressive, he never tried to "attack" another dog.)

He rarely barked when someone was at the dor yet he was very vocal to the family "talking" often.

 

This is true, but a lot of people don't take the time to fully and properly educate themselves on the breed before getting into it. It'd be nice if they did a lot more misconceptions would be cleared up and not kept going. Atleast they asked and can get a good honest answer. And they WILL protect YOU from harm, no question about it. The older dog is pretty much taking on her Boxer traits, as she is a pit/boxer cross and a cross can take on traits of either parents. Thats why crosses can be somewhat unpredictable in temperament, traits and abilities.

 

:0008:

 

jesus bronx you need to be hosed off before you explode!

what sally will get is a dog bred by a byb who does not give a damn about breeding to standard. sally will most likely not get an apbt, but some mutt thats been bred to look like a giant one. sally will most likely end up with a dog who has an unpredictable temperament due to careless breeding. sallys dog could end up with health problems. *poor sally*

there is a big difference between a guard dog and a protective dog. the purpose of a true guard dog is to cause damage to a person if they trespass onto their property. a guard dog WILL be aggressive to anyone it doesnt know. thats what its trained to do [note i used the word trained, because thats what you need to do to create a guard dog]. a guard dog will not bark at someone for 30 minutes then decide everythings ok and be all hunky dory with the guest/intruder, thats what a protective dog does..... forgot to add here, apbts can be moderately protective and suspicious, but thats as far as it goes. anything more and id think there is something wrong. if any showed guard dog traits id be VERY worried. every staffy and pit i have come across has welcomed guests and strangers with open arms, and tongues. now with akitas, their standard is to be protective, suspicious and aloof with strangers.

see the story about young naive sally above.

see meaning of guard dog above.

who knows. youve pretty much called everyone a dingleberry. :lol: youve also insulted the professional breeders here by calling them morons.

maybe you do need to educate yourself? you asked the question, you got the answer. its up to you to take that answer and put it to good use. or you could just sit on here arguing it, thus proving you really do need to be educated? theres always someone who comes on here, asks a valid question, gets their answer, but continues to argue it. well, if they are going to argue it then they should never have posted in the first place if they thought they were so right. you know what everyone is going to say, so if you think youre so right about the guard protection whatever bit then why did you ask?

 

Its not wise to ask morons questions, you know you'll only get a stupid answer. That statement is a total oxymoron, if someone is asking a question and gets an answer you are educating them, but some people are thick head. I'm not going to go for insults like yourself, however if the person gets the answer and just doesn't get it or wants to argue WHATS THE POINT??? They aren't listening and gaining any knowledge from the answer when you're trying to help them. You are trying to educate them but they don't want to hear it.

Lets see question, my Pit isn't being protective yet? Ect.

Answer would be Pit Bulls are not a "protective breed by nature" as some who didn't get educated might think, so you didn't read/learn up on the breed before you got it and now people are helping by putting the knowledge out there and you want to argue with it or say their stupid for supplying an answer. They are not a protective breed and will likely never show a protective nature or display protective traits. Some will bark at people for whatever reason for most dogs will, others will just sit there and be silent, some will get all happy with glee and then the dogs who have poor temperaments will be aggressive.

I don't understand where you are coming from anymore, so everyone should except bybs ruining the breed because its what the public wants. (and most the public does want a good pet, and often end up with bad ones from bybs that go to the shelter) Whats the point of having a breed or liking a breed if the breed isn't a "breed" at all, just whatever someone wants to breed and label it as. I want a 100lbs protective big dog that looks a little like a Pit Bull so I should start breeding those and calling them Pit Bulls. That really makes no sense, you should like the breed you like for what it is, otherwise you're not really liking that breed if you expect it to be something else. Maybe you got the wrong breed, maybe its not what you thought it was. Despite "popular" belief APBTs are super friendly, way too unprotective and without a big territoral drive (when it comes to people) to be really formidable guard dogs. Now SCH and police work they can do, that requires a lot of training and they are successful at it, but naturally protective they are not.

No one is hating on you for having a big dog or wanting a protective dog, they just said you should have learned before and I said not everyone takes the time to learn thats why they ask (its good to ask) and can get a good honest answer. But I guess in your opinion its a lie and not a good answer because its not what you want to here. The only person who answered "correctly" was someone who was describing (in a general sense) the protective nature of dogs (as having to do with maturity which is true), however would apply to protective breed anyway. But since you liked the answer it was "correct" even if it was actually (ok probably) wrong to apply in your case. Pit Bulls aren't a protective breed and are very excepting of strangers, they were listed as the most stolen dogs on the news. I've been around many APBTs and only a few unsound ones have been what some people describe as "protectivness" (fear aggressive). I went to pick up a bitch on a yard of dogs, the owners were in another state. The dogs barked, but they were all friendly and were not barking to be protective I went around and pat them, went in the back door. These dogs didn't know me. This is the breed you picked, you have to except what it is. A breed that naturally wants attention from most any human unless that human is trying to harm their owner. They won't show protectivness, they will just protect you when you need it.
If this breed isn't what you thought and doesn't suit your needs, you can always go for a different breed, its simply.
If you are looking for a dog that will show protective nature go with a breed who has these natural insticts. (Like a Boxer, Akita or Bull Mastiff).
I will be purchasing a couple guard dogs in a couple months to protect my home, property and APBTs from theft.

If Tommy wants his Pit Bull long haired, bushy tailed herding/watchdog maybe he should find a different breed, I guess he could find some bybs that has what he wants, a dog labeled as a Pit Bull to fit his needs. Its really not a Pit Bull at all, no more then the mutt down the street.

EDIT: I left something out of my post. UKC/AKC ....lmao, that has nothing to do with any of my beliefs, doesn't influence my thoughts, these two registries don't affect my prospective or opinions on the breed.

 

I most definetely agree with goob and True..why have a breed standard if you don't want to adhere to it?

It's there for a reason...to determine what traits make up the breed..it was carefully chosen to make up a dog that could do the required job it was bred for and because it was sucessful health and temperment wise

Many breeds of dogs will protect you when you need it that aren't guarding breeds(My old beagle when I was child was very protective of me and never let strange men approach when I was outside playing)...they are man's best friend after all...but this doesn;t make them true guard dogs..pit bulls are most definetely not a guarding breed...my dog is vocal..that's it...she would let any stranger walk in to my house...but because she gets excited by people looking in windows..she's a good deterent..she certainly looks like she might do something...but she won't...except jump up and lick their face.. :roll:

 

Funny, pit bulls weren't in danger of being banned in dozens of places and already so in others when the "oldschool" people who wanted ONLY human friendly temperaments were the majority... notice a correlation?

Coming from someone who has both a "protective" (suspicious of strangers, though she'd rather be left alone to cause trouble) pit bull and a stable, standard temperament pit bull, I feel I can safely give my opinion on this. I treasure the fact that our younger APBT has zero suspicion for anyone, anywhere. She's been through some very painful procedures at the vets, still strolls in there tail wagging and happy to be there with people she barely knows. Greets strangers on the street like they're her long lost brothers, and would happily leave with them if I wasn't holding the leash :roll: . I feel comfortable taking her anywhere people are without worry of her biting someone and making headlines, because NO normal situation is a threat to her. She's not going to react if some kids get into a fight in front of her at the schoolyard, or the police would pull up full on offensive mode while we were out for a walk one night, she's not going to make bad headlines and put another nail in the breed's coffin. I feel more comfortable knowing this about this dog than I do with our older APBT, who is not standard in temperament and has to be handled with much more care and discretion. Would the younger dog react if someone truly threatened us? Who knows. You don't ever really know how a dog will react in a given situation until they are put in it, and I plan to do my best to not end up in a situation where we'll have to find out.

You can talk all day about how your dog exercises discretion, but the one time their version of discretion doesn't match yours, you'll be in trouble. Dogs aren't people, and don't think like people do, so to expect them to always know which person is ok and which is not is asking a lot, and setting the dog up for failure.

The "Sally" of the world is exactly the person who needs to learn WHY the APBT isn't a good breed for guard work (since they are, by nature, the opposite of protective), and either adjust their wants/needs so that a pit bull is suitable for them, or find another breed. Again, the breed is dying of popularity right now, and because of people trying to turn them into something they're not. It'll be a surprise if they're not banned in several provinces (those are like our states in the US) in Canada by the end of the year, and a ban has just been proposed for the entire STATE of Georgia. At this rate, it won't matter what we breed for, because in 10 yrs, none of us will be allowed to have anything resembling pit bulls anyway.

 

It is definately good to hear the great responses from us "morons"????
I wanted to reply but didn't at the time as I was totally dumbfounded by Bronx's post. Again, owning a Staffy Bull, Luke, I could trust him around anyone, he accepted anyone that wanted to pet him. We are big campers and he had to be around many people and I never had trouble trusting him. I did notice that some people when they kneeled down, he would lick their face but there were a very few that he would not and just tolerate being petted. I often wondered what Luke sensed about these people that he did not react as usual by licking. They say a dog is a good judge of character and with Luke I believed it. I also owned a German Shepard and I hated walking her... she would pull and bark at anyone or any dog that walked near us. It was all I could do to hold her back. Now, she was adopted by us when she was 4 and was not socialized real well but became VERY protective over me and the property. I did not like owning a dog that I couldn't trust. I was afraid that if she accidently got loose, she may bite someone. Why someone would want a PB like that is beyond me. I loved Sasha but it was very stressful owning her. (She has since passed). Luke who had to accept her into the household, did actually let her be the dominant dog. She ate and drank first. They got along great but Luke was kenneled when we weren't home so they were never left alone together.
I was talking to a guy who owned Shepards and had owned a Pit. He told me that when his Pit reached the age of 1, he turned mean. I asked him what he meant and he said that he just turned mean. I prodded... for no reason?... and he said it's in their nature to turn mean. I asked him if he trusted the dog with his family and kids and he said yes. After talking more, he stated that he "trains his dogs to attack with a special word".
HMMM seems to me that the "training" is what made the dog "turn" mean. The dog had to be taught to attack. Which leads me to the statement that these dogs are so willing to please their master, they will unfortunately do anything for them. This guy told me that he would train my dog for free and have him trained in a month. Ya, right.... I wouldn't let that guy train my baby, Bo, if he paid ME all the money in the world. It's idiots like that who should not own dogs period.
My baby, Bo, is 6 months old now, he has done nothing but wag his tail when meeting any person or any dog. He quickly assumes the butt up, front down play position when around other dogs. When he plays, he has no problem laying belly up with the other dog on top of him. These 2 things are said to show good temperament dogs. I have him in training to be a Therapy dog and keep him socialized around other dogs. My daughter is also using him in 4-H obedience competition. I do not want an aggressive dog, especially not a PitBull as that would just be solidifying most peoples ignorant opinion of the breed. My dog is going to show what a true Pit should be like and if for some unfortunate reason he shows any type of unnecessary aggression, I will have him put to sleep. I don't care what kind of dog I own, if my poodle bites for no good reason, it's gone. (although I would never own a poodle). As I said, it was not easy owning an aggresive, "guard" dog. I'm glad she never harmed anyone. To clarify, I'm not sure she would have bit, as she never did. But to have a Shepard coming at you barking aggressively, it is not a situation you would want to be in. I was never sure that I could trust her at all times and I didn't like that. She had cornered people on our property and to me, I felt that it made me look like an irresposible pet owner. I want a friendly dog who I can trust.
One more point.... All dogs are animals who can goof up, and we must remember that as no dog can be 100% trusted. It's a dog, not a human.

After submitting this I also remembered that our dogs are actually more trustworthy than some of these "humans" running around. LOL

 

I believe the same thing is very true, you probably missed the thread where we discussed the "guard dog" issue and protective dogs, but I had a pup loved all people and got really excited to meet them, licked them, played with them the usual. There was this one guy that she didn't like, she didn't like him petting her and she didn't get excited. This guy really isn't a nice guy, he's a rather disturbed person. Anyway I was walking at night when I had my adult male with me. This guy is always trying to talk to me (and he is always OVERLY nice to everyone), follow me and whatever. Well I was walking with a friend, we got to the end of the buildings and there was a parking lot (we were walking to another parking lot where my friends van was parked to leave) he was standing there smoking a joint. I stopped at a building before the parking lot to stall for time and talk to my friend so he would leave, but he didn't so we moved on. We got to where he was and I walked out in the street because I didn't even want to acknowledge him, my dog started growling at him, which normally would disturb me but I KNOW the guy, it eased my anxiety. This dog is probably the friendliest dog you could ever meet, all my dogs are extremely friendly but he is super overly friendly and always extremely excited when meeting people especially men. Ealier on the walk a man came around the corner and practically ran into us and he was all wags, then just before we reached this guy in the parking lot a man across the street was talking on his cell and my dog got all excited and wagged his tail. But both my dogs sense this guys bad intentions and I am really confident in their discernment because I know their nature and temperament. I don't have to worry about them being aggressive or "protective", they only react when their is a reason. Which I think is just perfect, why would you want something else that you can't trust and that feels the need to be protective? It doens't make sense. To want more then you really need.

 

Thinking back...
When Luke was only about 3 months old. The town we live in was having a parade. We were outside and many people were walking past our house as we are on the parade route. Luke barked at one person out of many. It was a guy who we knew was a drug addict. Funny how they sense these things.

 

Wow Bronx. No offense, but sometimes it seems you have split personalities. What's up?

Around here, it seems all too common to hear of pit bulls being stolen. If bred properly, they are extremely people friendly.

 

Bronx, In order to become an "a\a good breeder" you are going to need your dogs evaluated and proved worthy breeding stock, first by health testing and second at conformation shows and obiediance trials. The people involved in those events will be merciless in their critique of your dogs. You will hear far worse than you have heard on this thread, you will also need to be the person answering the kind of questions you are now asking.

From one person to another, DUDE, RELAX..... and this world has enough breeders..... The breed is oldschool, for the mostpart they should be as they have always been, not what you want them to be.