Puppy advetisement and responsible breeders

This is a spin off on another forum, but i wanna ask you guys this question.. I know most people believe that puttin your pups in the paper makes in a bad breeder.. well some people do.. but how about folks that advertise online?? i know the online thing is more flashy but you are still advertising to people you really dont know.. so what do you think??

 

I havent bought a dog from anyone for over 20 years, apart from adoption fees, but for me personally if I was going to buy a dog and saw one on line that I liked I would still want to visit, see the parents and do some research on the breeder and the bloodlines. From the other side of it, if I was breeding dogs and selling them I would absolutely want to know as much as possible about the prospective new owner, my friend breeds Bull Mastifs and she has travelled to a couple of different States to interview people, she takes the dogs herself and if she isnt happy with the person or the living arrangements for the dog she will bring the dog back, most of her selling though is done through word of mouth, shes never advertized on line or in a paper and said she never will.

 

I don't think that putting an ad in the paper neccessarily makes you a bad breeder, but it does make me think twice. A good, reputable breeder usually does not have to advertise their puppies in the paper. They've got owners lined up far, far in advance. Also, the language that the ad uses can make me cautious.

Things that make me cautious in ads:

"Teacup" - There is no such thing as a teacup. A teacup is a runt. That's not to say that it's an unlovable dog, but they do come with health problems all their own, and if the breeder is BREEDING two teacups to create more, I'd put money that the pups will not be very healthy.

"Doodles" - Any kind of mixie breed like Cockapoos, Labradoodles, or Shih-poos. Say it with me, these dogs are mutts. Again, not to say that they're unlovable, but they're just mixed. Why spend $700 on a dog that you can adopt for $100 from the pound? Not to mention that there aren't any reputable breeders for these dogs, because reputable breeders would not use their show dogs (which is what should be bred) to create mixes.

Multidogs and Litters - A good breeder is probably not breeding 8 kinds of dogs, and does not have than one litter at the time.

CKC - The Continental Kennel Club (not the Canadian Kennel Club, which is reputable) is NOT a reputable registry. They'll register any dog without papers, as long as you can get people to sign a paper saying that it IS a purebred.

"Pick of the Litter" - Good breeders will keep the pick of the litter for a showdog, generally.

This is kind of rough, but think about buying a dog out of the paper like buying a car. If the car looks horrible, the seller is going to say it "needs some repairs". If it runs funny, it'll "need a tuneup".

 

yes, i agree that a good breeder would have owners already lined up.. but say you have extra pups (keep in mind im no breeder.. never been part of that process, so im not sure you can have extra unexpected pups) but is it wrong to advertise them in the paper?? you can still do your screening and things like that when people call.. but i do believe that jus havin a litter and straight puttin them up in the papers does make you a peddler.. but i think you can still be "honest" and use the papers.. if im wrong.. please let me know

 

I agree, honest people can use the paper, you just have to be more selective about your screening process, IMO.

 

yor pushy huh (just kidding)
Heres what my friend said. A 'reputable breeder' will never need to advertize in a paper, even if there are more puppies than planned they will have 'reputable contacts' either through dogs they have bred their own dogs to, through dog shows, she mentioned something about contacts within AKC but Im not exactly sure what that involved.
I know quite a few breeders although not that well, theres another one in LA that is one of the countries top Boston Terrier breeders, her dogs have literally hundreds of awards, ribbons etc through some of the countries top dog shows, her pups have been sold all over Europe (through contacts within the 'circle) and have got championship status in UK and Italy, she has never sold a pup through a paper or on line....I dont think shes ever advertized them, they are in constant demand.
I have advised many people not to buy a dog advertized through either source, Im not saying that they are all bad breeders, I cant say that as I dont have the facts but I can say of all the people that I know that have bought dogs through papers, the majority do not get papers, the pups are sold as young as 4-6 weeks and they pay almost as much as going through a reputable breeder, many have not even started their vaccine series, many are under socialized....and I wont even get into the medical problems. Now I have to say that I do know people who have had a litter unexpectedly that have advertized them in a paper, theyve sold them for around maybe $50-$100 or in some cases are free (whatever the breed), they have screened potential new owners, theyve been up front about not having papers....theyve even kept the pups until 8 weeks of age. I have no problem at all with that.

I dont think that pet stores should sell pups either, from what Ive read, seen and heard, the pups come from puppy mills. I dont support byb's or puppy mills.

 

AGREE 100%!! i tell people who are lookin for pups not to look for pups in the stores.. no matter how cute they are.. you are doin them a better justice by leavin them there

 

i don't think you can judge a breeder by whether they advertise or not. in the long run you have to make the decision for yourself i.e. ...go see the kennel conditions, talk to people who have purchased dogs, etc. there is no definitve way to say this is a bad breeder/ good breeder just by the way someone chooses to advertise. i would be willing to bet good money that floyd sr. didn't have to advertise his pups but the fact remains that he was involved in illegal activities. in addition the term backyard breeder is subjective also because really who isnt? everyone had to start somewhere and until microsoft or coca-cola start selling dogs your buying a dog from a backyard breeder. john colby and sandy comer werent born with a magical ability to breed and sell dogs...they learned from experience. another thing to consider is that as long as there is demand there are going to be suppliers and not everyone will spend the 500 plus that a reputable breeder charges which is why owners have to get together to form clubs and groups that help monitor local breeders and assist the aspca in stopping irresponsible breeders.

 

This is very true, you can't always judge. But its general that most reputable breeder don't have to advertise for reasons mentioned above. Also not advertising leaves windows for all the bybs to put in ads, some responsible breeders will advertise even if they don't have anything they may advertise their kennel to let people know where they can get quality well bred pets. Instead of a pet store, mill or bybs. But the majority like 99.9% of people advertising are bybs.

Responsible Breeders

Keep what they breed

Have homes lined up

Sometimes advertise to let people know of their existence and some never advertise and never sell pups.

I also think it is somewhat subjective because people have slightly different opinions on bybs and puppy mills. However I think usually most people are in a general agreement of what a byb and what a responsible breeder is. Who isn't could easily be pointed out. I see the "everyone had to start somewhere" is just an excuse by bybs to have a reason behind why they are doing what they are doing. don't get me wrong its good when a byb changes direction and comes out much better then they started, but for most this never happens and they stay a byb so this is just BS most of the time. What is so wrong with starting out as a responsible breeder? Why don't people make this decision instead of saying everyone has to start somewhere, yes start prepared and responsible.

I don't think is involves people like Colby or Comer, its EASY to sell dogs and requires little ability maybe breeding dogs properly and selling to good homes requires some effort. No magical ability, before anyone ever breeds their first litter they can put in time, effort, into research, breed clubs, shows, learning, mentors, ect and start right. What they have or do really is simple and not some complex ability that takes years of experience, experience is good and you grow wiser but sticking with the people who can help and mentor you along the way makes up for the lack of experience and research is good too (not the same thing but helps a lot). I also agree about the prices, not everyone is willing or can pay that much. However if you look at Pet Store dogs and several of these bybs dogs they run from $1000+ and people are paying this for poor quality dogs so there is no reason why they can't buy from a responsible breeder. And there are even many responsible breeders who would let a dog go for less then that. Then there are the cheap byb where you can get a dog for $100 or so and some people want that. so yes Supply/Demand, so true and so sad, people treat them like a comodity or business instead of being responsible ethical breeders.

I think that the group idea would be a positive thing, but I don't see it happening anywhere or at least not to that exstint. Nothing like that really going on. I wish though.

 

Back yard breeders are in no way reputable breeders.....if they were they would not be called back yard breeders...the term was 'created' for those who dont care about the dogs, but for the most part only care about how much money they can make...or in the case that Stormy recently brought up....that woman doesnt even want money!!!!! then I would strongly question her motives....maybe shes one of these people that just likes to watch 'the birthing process' (ive met a few of them....they are complete wacks....geez go visit a farm or something). There is a HUGE problem in this country with thousands of dogs being killed every day because they dont have a home, a good percentage of them are full breeds. Back yard breeders are making this problem worse.
There really should be licensing and laws to breed dogs.

 

i agree completely. the big three kennels clubs should offer certification and licensing and without it they shouldn't register dogs. that would weed out a large portion of irresponsible breeders .

thats exactly my point if someone has 5 dogs chained in a dirt pit in their backyard then thats wrong, but what about the family with two quality dogs that are well taken care of and would like to breed ? is it fair to label them backyard breeders because they haven't acquired the contacts and recognition to sell all their dogs before birth. i pretty much agree with everything you guys have said but i think we have to be more careful of over generalizing because someone advertises. i think true pits made a really good point in that if more top quality kennels advertised it would discourage small time breeders from entering the breeding field.

and just so everyone knows where i am coming from i am a breeder . have been for quite a few years now and i have seen it all from pampered pets to dogged out dogs and if i learned one thing its that you cant judge things at first glance. hold that thought....i gotta go but i'll be back to finish this post.

 

I would not call these people back yard breeders though, mybe people have different ideas on what byb's are. If someone who has not established themselves within the circle as they are just statrting out (and I will say that I havent bred dogs, what I base my opinion on is the research Ive done, the rescues Ive worked with, the hospitals Ive worked at, the breeders I know, the byb's I know or know of) they will still ensure quality feeding and care of the female, and the male if they have him, prior to breeding, after breeding, they will not sell the puppies under 8 weeks of age, will most likely have started the vaccine series, will have done appropriate socialization with the pups....basically everything that a respectable breeder would do and everything that a byb would not bother doing. I do have to ask though, would the people not have contacts already...at least maybe a couple of leads from whoever they bought their dogs from? I would imagine that there would be research done on the bloodlines that they have so to be honest I still dont see why they would need to advertize in papers....but if they did, as long as they are vetting the potential new owners to ensure the pups get the best possible home then I dont see anything wrong with. The fact remains though the general opinion on people in the animal field is reputable breeders wont advertize there because the majority are byb's.
So Im not saying its wrong to put an ad in the paper just the general opinion is negative.

 

Heres a pretty good definition of byb's versus responsible hobby breeders.

http://www.ktcampbell.com/taji/rbvsbyb.htm

 

Hi a reputable breeder will always have more people lined up for puppies than there is puppies themselves.

I know when one of my girls was due to me bred from i had nearly 20people lined up for a pup and there was only a litter of 5.

In my opinion a true breeder would never advertise in the papers nor over the internet..

When buying from a breeder its always best to contact the kennel club they are registered with ask about that breeder and how often there Dam is bred from.

Most breeders will only have 1-2 litters per year and not breed from a dog under 2years old or over 6yrs old.

The more information you can get about a breeder and his/her dogs the better.

Never be affraid to ask the breeder questions a truthful breeder will not hide anything.
Always ask about any health problems in the line, About hip, Eyes, stuff like that a reputable breeder will show all certificates.

Will also give a full vet check proof .

Mike

 

I would take it a step futher and say only dogs that meet the standard should be able to be registered, and only be able to be bred/have their litters registered. Dogs that don't meet up should have their papers I guess on limited registration by the registry. I think this sort of policing would really help, at least somewhat. Dogs that don't meet up can't have their pups registered if the owner went ahead and bred them the litter couldn't be registered. If you breed dogs who do meet standard their litter can be registered however it is pending on how they turn out in the breed requirments. It should cover more then the conformation standard.

What is your point? I think I understand it but its not the same as mine, mine stated it best if they start out responsible and stay responsible. Most bybs NEVER change and a few do realize and do change, they did have a bad start but thats the rare exception. If you look at some puppy mills and bybs they have been in biz many years and haven't changed a thing. There are also those breeders who did start out reputable and then turned into mills once they got greedy and had a rep to sell dogs off of.

If the people with 5 dogs chained outside are breeding irresponsible then they are bybs, but the 2nd set of people are are still just as much backyard breeders, just not as bad. What makes their dogs quality? These 2 are better then the other 5 how? When you say family I think of pet owners with 2 dogs, in otherwords people breeding pets-bybs. The main ? is still the same though what makes them quality? The 5 other dogs could be as good or better. The 2 family dogs are quality because they have better owners? Having better owners don't make them legitimate to breed, do you know how many families breed their female or two dogs together, many! I don't think it has to do with how they advertised, byb is more then what we have been talking about (the ads) and what they are doing is byb sounds like to me, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they advertised their pups in the paper. Its because they decided that they would like to breed their 2 pets together, something most bybs do and also praise what good quality and temperaments their pets have thats why they should be bred they say :roll: .

Here is what should be thought about with their quality. What proves it? Do they have exceptional bloodlines? Have they been proven? They have the titles to back it up? Are they mentally stable and this is also in their pedigree, good temperament? Are they healthy and this in their pedigree as well? Have they researched the breed, breeding, pedigrees, bloodlines, history, ect. Responsible breeder does this, bybs do not.

dogged out dogs? Whatsa thats? lol. Maybe I'm out of the loop. I have always thought of you as a byb, thats just by assumption though because I don't know you, your program or your practices its just my opinion/assumption at this point. You don't post much on the board either it seems and not too much about your breeding so I've only based it off a few post that you seem to be a casual hobby pet (ie byb) breeder. I could always be wrong, I never took the time to point it out or question your breeding practices b/c I never much cared too. I try not to jump on people most of the time and not make an issue about it unless they are uncaring, very irresponsible and mistreating their dogs because that really upsets so my emotions kind of take over and I'm a little mad when I'm posting/talking to someone. Otherwise I don't want to make waves over it, I see it as a problem but not want to start a flame war over.

 

okay here we go. number one when i say quality dogs i mean just that well bred, good bloodlines, good temp, etc. if you would stop over analyzing that would be readily apparent. also when you have 5 dogs chained in the back yard that automatically makes them lesser quality because they aren't socialized are probably in poor condition and also frustrated over their inability to move and examine things which catch their eye which makes them a liability in a neighborhood.
next lets examine your need to attack me and label me as a backyard breeder when in fact by your own admission you know nothing of me. you over generalize when it suits your purpose and then over analyze when it doesn't. i 've read your posts before and this is something your constantly doing to others here. your dogs are nice for the most part but i think your perhaps a little to ate up with fighting lines and the conditions that your dogs are kept in looks like they could be a little better. the reason i don't post much about my breedings is because this is a discussion forum ...NOT a place to sell dogs which i have no trouble whatsoever doing because our dogs are vet certified, triple registered, well cared for , in excellent health, super tight bloodlines and most importantly we take responsibility for all of our pups.

perhaps i hit a little to close to home with the chained/caged dogs line huh truepits?

also i have never even posted that i have bred for anything other than myself so your assumptions again clearly land you in the wrong. why would you assume i was a byb and not someone who breeds for pulls and shows which we do. i'm going to stop this discussion now because its apparent to me that when you can't explain yourself well you resort to character assassination and gross assumptions. incidentally if anyone wants to look at our dogs i have nothing to be ashamed of and you can check out my dogs at hurricane bay kennels. thats the end of what i am willing to say on this and i think your behavior in this post was ridiculous and without class truepits. you have some knowledge but don't let your ego over a few moderately bred dogs bite you in the a$$ on this true.


if you didn't want to start something or make waves or whatever then you wouldn't have said what you said, but you did...so the next time you want to spew your hateful biases show some backbone and stand behind it instead of being mealy-mouthed and mincing words. because heres what it boils down to....there is nothing inherently wrong with advertising whatsoever and i am sure that i have unequivocally proved that. you argue of the subject as much as you want but even the big kennels advertise in the trade magazines. every time you read about 357 magnum winning a show or lar-san championing another dog thats advertisement. and whats more your no authority on the subject anyhow anymore than any other person who posts here which means your just another pretender collecting dogs and throwing them in the backyard. where are the pics of your dogs playing like mine or someday's...they don't exist because all i've ever seen of you is half starved dogs on chains or in kennels ...except when you let one out at a time so the undersocialized " TRUE PITS " that you have don't take chunks out of each other. people like you are the reason WHY byb's don't get better ....because your stuck so far up your own anus that you can't do anything but criticize. who would want to ask for help from someone as condescending and derogatory as you? and as i'm sure you'll respond of the subject with no bearance to what i'm saying so you can label me all day long...it won't affect me, my dogs or the good people who buy from us. we ARE trying to be a positive force locally for APBT's and their owners which is why i get the first call from the local news affiliates when they want a respected opinion on pits. i'll send you the tapes if you need proof though i imagine you would probably just turn it off as you already know everything there is to know about everything. we unlike you respond with kindness instead of condemnation. people are going to breed and its up to those of us who have experience to help them do it right instead of saying you shouldn't breed and sending them to do it without guidance. you can't stop byb's but you can convert them...i've done it with a couple of different breeders and i've also forced others out of business by being better at it and making sure that we keep info on all the breeders in are area...what do you do? aside from b!tch and moan, of course..oh, and talk about your 35 pound fighting dogs and how they are PURE pits. i have more respect for those who adopt than some snobby elitist who i bet i could goad into saying your dog is more " game" than mine or that it would win in a fight...but thats just me assuming...i figure i have the right to assume things that i can't prove or have no idea about just like YOU.

 

Ok now i am a Breeder and i have for many years.

I do not agree with advertising on the internet nor in newspapers.

Like i pointed out a reputable breeder even someone that is starting out will have people lined up.

Lets use an example,,, Lets say Truepits has 2 excellent pedigree dogs excellent bloodlines all the paper work all health certificates ect.
She decided to breed her dogs, Her family and friends would know this they would then tell there family and friends and the circle goes on.
This is known as word of mouth.

She would then have people enquiring about a puppy, She would make a list of people, there addresses, telephone numbers, she would also do a police check, also check with veterinary offices to make sure these people have never been convicted of anything or any animal they may still own has not had any suspicious accidents...

She would then do a home visit, to check make sure gardens, home is suitable for a puppy, She would ask about there work commitments and money, Aslo ask them if the puppy will be left for long periods of time and wether they would have someone that would come in and allow the dog to go out to the toilet if the owners is going to be out at work for say 8-10hours.

She would then make a list of suitable owners.

Once the litter arrived she would contact the new owners to be and inform them of the arrival of the puppies.

All puppies will be wormed and have there first set of shots and most breeders like myself also send the pups off to there new home with 6weeks free insurance cover, Along with there vaccintaion card, health certificate, Pedigree papers some of the food they are on, A fact sheet on puppy care, she would also get the new owners to sign a contract stating if for any reason they can no longer keep the puppy she will take the puppy back.

A day or two before the pups goto there new homes she would go and check the homes and gardens again and point out any problem areas and again make sure the family is aware of the responsabilties of owning a dog.

Most breeders like myself will take the pup to its new home to again check that everything is in order.
She would then just turn up at there houses unannounced to make sure everything is fine and tells the new owners to call her anytime if there is a problem or if the have any questions..

A true breeder very rarley makes money on litters as most of the money will go back into the dam and her litters.

This is a responsible owner.

A BYB will not do any of this, all they see is money..

How did you work out that this makes them lesser quality.

My mum bred Rottweiler Dogs and because he would try and escape the yard she chained him up. He was a full pedigree with a 6generation pedigree certificate.

Just because the dogs are chained does not make them lesser quality.
Does not mean there are a liability to the neighbourhood, Ever thought the reason for chaining them is to stop them escaping and running into a road and being killed or causing an accident on the road.

I personally do not believe in chaining or caging any animal but thats my opinion and i never judge people on that.

As for the 2 pets being bred together chances are they are the lesser quality, Probably cross breeds with no background, No health checks nothing.

So please do not jump on the other posters on here as most of them have an extensive knowledge of animal care and welfare.

Do not jump on me either for stating the above i have breed dogs for years, my family have done it for years, I have training in animal welfare aswell as veterinary training, some training in animal behaviour and training.

I have worked for animal adoption shelters and seen some of the animals that come in due to owners breeding there dogs and not realising the problems it could cause when they could not home the pups.
I have seen puppies brought in by there new owners because they could not cope with there behaviour and the breeder would not take the pup back, Something a true breeder would do.

Just all my opinion

Mike

 

i am aware of how breeding and selling works. that was never what we argued and more importantly its still just YOUR opinion that a reputable breeder doesn't advertise. as i already illustrated reputable breeders DO advertise in all the trade magazines. right or wrong? wait, i 'll tell you it's right.

thats also incorrect. the value of your dogs determines your profit margin. it only takes a fixed amount of money to care for a dog and as successfull breeder will tell you ( colby, comer, boudreaux, etc.) your dogs value will increase as you win shows, pulls,or is a good producer. that is an obvious and undeniable fact. thus you make more money. easy concept.

as i already explained above a good dog is more than pedigree, and you as a breeder should know such a simple thing. so a constantly chained dog is lesser quality in most respected breeders opinions in addition to being illegal in a mutitude of cities . so if you aren't able to ensure that your dog won't escape the backyard or have proper room for them to run then don't own a dog. thats supremely irresponsible. and if you wont judge them the courts will. and just like i said before in the HYPOTHETICAL situation the two pets are QUALITY dogs which are taken care of. please read the post thoroughly so i don't have to repeat myself.

i don't jump on other posters which are civil to me but i will reciprocate when i am slandered by individuals that have a history of antagonistic behavior towards fellow posters. so....please, how about putting true pits inflamatory attitude in check before coming after me. just because i made observations about how true pits operates doesn't mean i'm out to get her. and as i said in my post ( gotta read that post again) i am aware of true pits knowledge just as i am aware that she only uses it belittle others instead of actually being helpfull. just an observation.

all of which has nothing to do with advertising. once again i am amazed at the ability of you missing the point. we all are well aware of what can happen when people aren't ready to be breeders. MY point of contention is that advertising is okay . its how you handle the responsibilities of breeding dogs that makes you reputable and respectable not how people here about you. and in MY OPINION ( a right which we all have and one that you and true pits have been wearing out) the conditions that true pits dogs are kept in according to the photos on her website are poor at best. in addition her bloodlines are notorious fighting lines and the links she has on said site show dogs that have been rolled numerous times. you can argue that until your blue in the face but any experienced pitdogger will tell you the same. honebunch, nigerino, redboy jocko, and crenshaw are still the biggest names in the pits and those pics only prove it.

i know all about opinions.

thats it, thats all...i can't prove my point more clearly than i already have. if you choose not to comprehend what i have said then so be it. if you wish to put more words in my mouth...fine. go back and check all my posts to see what kind of member i have been; i believe i have been consistently open, gracious, and helpful to the utmost and have enjoyed this board up until this moment when someone can attack my breeding practices and a moderator comes running to their defense. ridiculous.

 

Sorry but if breeding is done correectly and the money is put into the healthand care of the dam before conception, during and after, then puppies a breeder very rarley breaks even. You ask anyone on here and if they make much money from there litters then i am sorry something is a miss.

I have NEVER come accross a breeder that was in it for the money.


Also excuse me DO NOT say my mother is irrespnsible because she tied her dog up my mother has owned and bred dogs well before you were concieved so do not go there, Her male rottie was the only one of her dogs that always escaped or atleast tried.

My mothers dogs are indoor dogs and they have free run of the house aswell as the yard.


I am well aware of truepits attitude this is because she like most posters on here are sick and tired of people thinking they know about breeding and when things go wrong responsible people have to pick up the pieces.

Just because 2 pets are well looked after and loved does not mean the owners are correct in breeding them especially if they do not have the first idea about there back ground.

Yes maybe people do advertise in magazines things like that i am not saying they dont i am saying i do not agree with it and a good reputable breeder will already have homes ready and waiting for the puppy long before its even concieved.

So please do not come here and try and be all high and mightly with me or any of the other members on this forum.

They like everyone else only have the animals best interest at heart and when you have seen what comes from irrisponsible breeding then you will know why most of the members get so heated up.

Most of us have seen it first hand of puppies being brought in with disfigurements, the state of neglect, abuse, torture.

Most of us have seen a dam being brough into a vets office because there litter was to large for them to deliver and the dam or the pups die or even both.

Most of us have seen dogs that can not naturally whelp come in to a vets office because the owners was too stupid to make arrangment for a C-Section.

Most of us have seen or heard of people advertising puppies and not checking out the new homes and owners and the pups end up being thrown out on the streets or beaten to death, starved or even killed.

Yes i am well aware about responabilty, i have enough animals that i am responsible for.

So please dont try and come at me like you tried with true pits as this just will not wash with me.

What really annoys me is its probably you thats a member of the BYB association, and only breed because you see the $$$$ signs before your eyes.

So please get off your high horse, i am not here to annoy you or p**s you off and you really should not do that to any of us.

Truepits is a true animal lover and cares deeply in matters like this and i back her 100%

 

wrong again. just because you aren't able to make a profit doesn't mean someone else who is doing exactly what you descibed as being responsible can't. it's the truth deal with it.

then you have less experience than you claim.

if the shoe fits my friend... age does not preclude competence. and the inability to keep a dog on its premises is the definition of irresponsible. ask an aspca officer. once again...deal with it.

and the neighborhood as well apparently.

which has what to do with her treatment of me? beg off it charmed she was in the wrong and you know it. earn your moderator position and do your job.

why wouldn't they know the background? please quit overanalyzing a hypothetical situation in an attempt to rationalize your point of view. the point of that example was to illustrate that everyone starts somewhere and you both missed it.

yes they will but it doesn't make it wrong to advertise. and by the way just having a website means you advertise which in turn makes true a byb just like everyone else in the dog world. john colby is a byb according to your standards. buenos aires is a byb according to you. sandy comer of the NAPBTA is a byb. puh-lease. take a look at your faulty resoning.

high and mighty? have you read the posts? the only person who is high is you. might i suggest you refer to the 1100 and some odd posts in which miss high and mighty herself bashes everyone and their dogs. or i am still talking to a wall here?

you want to see disfigured try looking at true pits bloodlines. i dare you to tell me those aren't fighting dogs on her site. knowing bloodlines is one thing but glorifying apbt's bloody past is another. lets get real about this...images like the ones she portrays on her site just reinforce the negative reputation we responsible breeders/owners are fighting everyday. and please spare me the crocodile tears and tales of horror...i'm as aquainted with the results of overbreeding as anyone else on this forum and it has nothing to do with advertising, so quit grasping at straws.

i don't have to come at you like i tried because the proof is on the boards. wash whatever you like and accuse me of whatever you want, as i said before it won't affect how i do things ....RESPONSIBLY! and lets examine your newfond inflamatory language...once again reverting to libel and calling me names. and if you are getting p!$$ed then perhaps it's because i'm getting to close to the heart of the matter. the truth hurts charmed. again...deal with it. and what of the reprimands for true for starting this argument with her baseless accusations? what in my original post deserved her attack on my credibility. why haven't you addressed that? i post an opinion that advertising is okay and you and true start calling me an irresponsible byb...how is that fair. it's not and you know it.

and i don't love them? there are lots of fighters who love their dogs truly ...do you back them 100% as well? get your priorities straight and get back on the topic...moderator. hah. if she loves animals so much where are the pics like someday's , and mine, and everyone elses showing her dogs running free and enjoying themselves? they don't exist. go to her website everyone and please take a look at her photos of chained , caged dogs living in a dirtpit running on treadmills and living in barrels. i'm not making this up...and if it sounds bad its because it is. if the aspca in mobile or detroit or just about anywhere saw her dogs they would take them and accuse her of dogfighting. you know what...i'm tired of shooting down your RETARDULOUS ( thats right you get a made up word for your utterly ridiculous ideas) arguments and insane ramblings so consider this my final post on the subject. i want to thank you for showing me how inconcievably oblivious supposed pit-lovers can be and why there need to be more intelligent owners like myself to win over a public that has nothing but backwards thinking, irresponsible pharisees such as yourself to base their opinion on. my god it scares me to think people like you two consider yourselves responsible. and incidentally i am one of the leading proponents in my area who are currently trying to revoke the automatic kill policy at our local shelters and have been asked to become a board member of a local apbt rescue which is trying to gain an operating license. i've paid my dues and am still very much active in my community so stop trying to preach at me. in closing i'd like to say you can bite my spring pole ...but thats just my opinion.