New Litter....hehe :)

i'm in agreement with shady on this one -- my suggestion is for you to take the money you're making off this litter and donate it to a local spay/neuter program, or your local shelter. not only would you then be finding great homes for your pups, but you'd also help a lot of other dogs in need.

 

We already donate to our local programs. Thanks for the suggestion though!

 

catrastrophe, just a quick question. did the owner of the stud say why the other dog was not as good quality? just curious.

 

He isnt proven(wasnt I mean!), has no future in show, and she was planning to place him in a pet home! He is prick eared, which completely knocks him out of show competition. She also hasnt had him tested for anything. She is actually pleased with this litter and thinks one may be show potential, and has decided to let him breed one of her females, based on this litter...ugh! But comparing the two, is like comparing a mutt and a purebred!

 

darnit! hope he hasnt got any nasty genes then. glad the litter turned out good though.

 

WOW she is very respectable huh. Now after seeing the pups from an accidental breeding she is going to breed a dog that is NOT show quality, not titled, not even a good representation of the breed to another female. Hmmm makes me wonder. I would look for another male to breed to next time though. This person obviously cannot make a good decision when it comes to breeding. You cannot breed a dog that has flaws and expect show potential pups from it based on the fact the puppies from an unplanned litter are CUTE. These types of breeders are why there is so much BSL out there today. You start breeding poor specimans of ANY breed and you end up with a bad situation down the line. There are several situations in which it is desirable to terminate a pregnancy, yet retain the animal's ability to reproduce in the future. Examples would include a valuable purebred breeding bitch that is accidently bred by an "undesirable" dog, or a estrous bitch that the owner may want to breed in the future that is found cavorting with a neighborhood dog in the backyard!

There are MANY medications a dog can receive to terminate a pregnancy.
PGF treatment is an effective treatment for termination of pregnancy in bitches. Properly administered, it is also safe and does not appear to have adverse effects on future reproductive performance of the bitch.
Clearly, several drugs appear to have promise as safe and effective abortifacients in dogs, and deserve additional research and marketing attention.

Prostaglandin F2alpha (PGF, Lutalyse(R), dinoprost tromethamine) is a hormone that induces luteolysis in many species, including dogs. Because progesterone is necessary throughout gestation for maintenance of pregnancy, PGF-induced death of the corpus luteum leads to termination of pregnancy. PGF also has the ability to stimulate uterine contractions, which may contribute to its abortifacient activity.

The canine corpus luteum is essentially unresponsive to PGF prior to diestrus day 5, then becomes progressively more susceptible to luteolysis through gestation. As a consequence, lower doses of PGF are required to induce abortion later in gestation.

PGF is administered twice daily, either for 4 days (less than 4 weeks of gestation) or until abortion is complete (after 4 weeks). In the later, case, the bitch should be monitored daily by palpation or ultrasound to evaluate whether abortion has taken place.


If you think it's okay to bring even more unwanted animals into the world, when others are being euthanized by the thousands, that's your right.
It just seems wrong to say you didnt want to abot the pups because that is killing them but what justifies killing dogs when they end up at the shelter after owners dont want a puppy forever? Im just looking at the OVERALL situation here. Puppys can be great! they can blur your reasonable thinking as well. Any respectable breeder WOULD abort an UNPLANNED litter by ALL means. It WILL NOT harm the future of the female reproducing and it ONLY ensures the QUALITY of pups produced by their dog. There is NO good reason to let a dog have a litter of pups when it can be prevented. Leave breeding upto the professionals and try to save dogs that are dying in shelters everyday instead of adding to the problem.

What measurements have you taken to ensure the NEW OWNERS will keep these dogs forever, give them vet care etc thay they need. Did you do home checks, vet checks, refrence checkes etc? Do you have a contract for them to sign stating if they ever mistreat the dog, neglect it or decide to get rid of it they come back to you? You are the producer of these lives and it is up to you to ensure their futures. That is what any decent breeder etc would do. I have saved over 200 animals of all breeds etc. In the beginning I thought it was ok when you seemed to KNOW the ppl you are adopting animals out to. Rememer that people move, situations change, people get divorced and things happen to cause someone to not be able to keep a dog. Puppies grow up, will owners want them when they arent as cute, when they are chewing up things and into everything? Its hard placing animals when its so easy to misjudge people. I have for over a year now been extremely carefull about the dogs I place.

I would say Ido as much research on a person, if not more, than they do when adopting a child. Everything considered in adopting a child is exactly what people should consider when adopting an animal. These are LIVES. You have to support them, feed them, give them medical treatment when needed and shots etc. You have to treat adopting a puppy the same way as a child. Only exception is when a child grows up you are not responsible for them. You will ALWAYS be responsible for a pet. Make sure before you decide to breed next time that you think about these things. Im not trying to come off harsh but I have worked with rescues/etc and have seen more than enough animals put to sleep because owners get tired of caring for their life long friend. Makes you kinda of passionate about these things ya know....




Good luck though.....Kim

 

Thank you for your concern. We are careful in screening our pups new homes. Good luck with your adoptions.

 

Shady baby, you have a right to your opinion but some of your statements and insinuation are uncalled for. Catastrophe is probably well aware of the risks/pros/cons that breeding entails. Catastrophe has a right to opinions and decisions as well. It is not your place to condemn/judge especially since you are not involved in the situation. I understand your concerns and you are passionate about animals but I think you have gone a little overboard in your "opinion" in this thread - *** PLEASE choose your words carefully.
Thanks
Moderator

 

I seen nothing wrong with what I posted. I shared my opinions, as well as facts and stastics for all to see, but in hopes of helping Catastrophy make a good decision about placing her pups etc. I never FORCED my opinion on anyone and I do not degrade anybody. I am passionate about this topic yes but that doesnt have anything to do with my post of my opinion. I never said her opinion was wrong or not valid. Someone post something so controversial and not expect to get a rise out of some folks is absurd. If this board is so critical of those wanting to help end killing of dogs in shelters, and help stop over population of pets in general then this is not the board for me. I only posted my opinion as everyone else has. I provided very good information about suggestions I recomended. I provided facts and such for it as well. I did not get down on this person because I am a bad person. I am only hopeing to HELP not hurt animals. Everyone has opinions and are entitled to them. I only expressed that. I am not going to apologize for being firm on MY opinion. I do not think Catastrophy took me as being a basher etc, I think she understands where Im coming from and what I am trying to express. If I did anything wrong Id be the first to admit it but I do not think I did. This is continued on another thread that I DID NOT start and nobody was repremended for it. I do not see why I was when I only posted a reply same as everyone else.


Kim

 

I wouldnt have seen you as a basher, until you started up in that other thread...I can understand your reasoning though. May I suggest the petfinder.com forum as a great one to post your views on? Not that they arent welcome here, just that you would gain a lot of friends there. Nobody can have too many friends!

 

Just wanted to add, I do understand were you are coming from Shady...and you are very passionate about your topic! :idea:

 

It is not what was said, it's the way it was said. Opinions are allowed but the rules are they need to be expressed in a tactful manner without assuming or berating any members.

It has been brought to my attention that your tone is offensive, and I can't say I entirely disagree. You can not speak for all breeders and not all "respectable" breeders believe in terminating litters, there certainly are other ways of taking responsibility.

This board is very much in support of the above, that is not the issue here. Like I said before you have a right to your opinions all I ask is they are worded carefully. This is not unreasonable.
End of discussion

 

catrastrophe - Why are you going to take your dog back to this same person who screwed up next time?

From what I read, they do not seem to know what they are doing and acted very irresponsibly, to the detriment of your dog. So why bring them back? I just don't understand that. If someone made a mistake to the detriment of my dogs, they would never see them again. I understand you want her to mate with this champion male, but if he comes from such an irresponsible breeder, could there not be other problems associated with him? (not sure if I said that right but hopefully you get my point) I just think it would be prudent to look at more aspects of this breeding than just the fact that he is a Champion.

 

We chose that male because of his qualitys, hoping to correct some of her faults, as they do not share the same faults, individually or genetically. It took us almost a year to find this male, and it is not the dog that is the problem, it is the owner. She is not his breeder, and we have gotten his genetic background from his breeder, just to be sure. So if our vet AIs them, how can it go wrong again? He has even said we could both witness the AI to make sure it is done without a problem next time.

 

Sounds like you dont want me here to me. I mean how can you reccomend me going elsewhere and say you would gain alot of friends there. I have alot of friends on this board as well. I am not posting my opinion to gain friend tobegin with. I have beliefs and opinions and I stand on them. I wont change them to gain a friend so to speak.

You cannot tell the exact tone of a post by reading it. I sometimes come off as being more harsh than what I mean. I apologize for that part of it but I was not being offensive by any means. I was only BOLDING certain words to draw attention to them. I foget that on some boards BOLD words are considered to be screaming etc. That was not the case in my post. I am sorry for that. I will be carefull how I post in the future but I will not sugar coat my opinions, nobody else does.



I have a couple questions. Why would you breed a female that has faults? I understand that breeders who have been doing it for years sometimes breed dogs that lack something to a dog that has more than enough of it to produce a perfect speciman but how long have you been breeding? Doing this type of breeding, to correct genetic faults must be done carefully and by experienced people. If not done right, it can produce pups with faults, and even exgerate other flaws in the breed. If she is going to go ahead and use this poor quality make you claim looks like a mutt compared to a pure breed then she is not the type of person you should be doing breeding with. If she is that careless and ready to make a buck, breeding with her male is only aiding her to continue her practices. If you put your foot down and say hey this is unacceptable then maybe she will realize what she is doing is wrong. If she is that careless she might be studding these males out to who knows what without testing the females etc which could cause your dog to contract a disease from her males. I just think you need to think alittle bit more about using this womans male regardless of his lines. You say its not anything wrong withthe dog, its the owners. A dog doesnt make the breeders, the breeders make the dogs. No matter how many champions this woman buys from other people, it doesnt mean she is practicing safe breeding practices. She has proven that already. This women probably will never produce a Champion from her own dogs she breeds because of her lack of intellegent and ethics. I can go buy several Champion dogs but doesnt make a a reputable breeder. Do you understand what Im saying. Not being harsh here. No bolding or such. I think I have used very good wording with this post so before someone goes and complains again, make sure you read my post slowly and clearly.



Kim

 

Catrastrophe, congrats on the pups! I am glad they are all healthy and you are finding them good homes.

I would also like to congratulate you on your conduct in this thread! You were provoked time and again and all you did was thank the person for their advice and assure them that you have the situation covered. Good for you!


Jamiya

 

Please note that NO dog, champion or not, is without faults. Breeding to improve means trying to remove those faults. As I have said, I talked to the dogs breeder about this, not the dogs owner. The owner will not be able to buy another good quality male after this, and you are right, she will never produce her own champion. That doesnt mean the dog cannot be used as a stud. We are trying to convince her to just sell us this dog, with the breeders permission of course, but I doubt she will do that. We also did give her our opinion, which was that the male shouldnt be bred again, no matter how good one of these pups looks. I do understand what you are saying, but I know after talking to the breeder, that this is the dog we want to sire our litter. And the comment about the other forum wasnt meant as an insult, because like I said, no one can have enough friends!

 

Thanks Jamiya!

 

Everyone has had a chance to post their veiws. This thread is now closed.