A bully or food aggressive?

Hi,

We recently adopted a black male (neutered) miniature poodle. He is 9 months old. Still very puppyish in some behaviors.

I have a 2 part question. The first one has to do with humping. He is wanting to hump our other 3 dogs. Doesn't matter which sex. One of the dogs is a 10 month old beagle. It is a female who was in her cycle. We took her to the vet this morning to be spayed. The poodle (Andre), was really wanting to get at her. I guess even though he has been neutered, the desire to mate or hump has not gone away. And I am assuming the previous owners got him fixed from the breeder they got him from. So, he was fixed early.

But that is one thing, humping the dog that was in her cycle. I can understand that. But why hump the other two? Is this a dommenance thing? Is he trying to find where he is in the pecking order? Or, is he trying to bully the other 2 dogs? The other 2 are a female miniature schnauzer and a male toy american eskimo. The eskie is 3 yrs. old and the schnauzer is about the same age.

So, Is the poodle showing typical behavior in trying to fit in?

The other thing he does... while feeding them all, I give them each their own food bowl, their own food. The eskie and the poodle get the same kind, Science Diet. The schnauzer is on Hill's Prescription diet because of bladder stones she had when we got her.

Anyway, Andre will start out eating his own food, then the minute he sees the other two eating their own food, he looses interest in his own food, and will sniff around the other two while eating.

This evening, he did this and the eskie growled at him, trying to ward him away. But the poodle stood his ground and then started snapping and trying to fight with the eskie. Who by the way, is named Gianni.

He also tried getting Greta's (the schnauzer) food from her but I got him away from her.

I know I could just put him outside or put him in the other room, while these two ate. But should I have to? Is this behavior something I can correct?

 

Sounds like he's trying to show dominance to the other dogs. Humping is a way of showing dominance(oddly enough). Think of this as a wolf pack. Another pack member has food, and the new dog wants it so he can have his food, and the eskie's food. The more the marrier. Then it just turns into an "arguement" because the eskie will have none of that. Because he refuses to show submission, the poodle will snap back.
It sounds like since the poodle moved in, he's trying to be a brute and shove his way to Alpha male. It's something you can't really stop, but watch them so they don't fight. Who was top dog before the poodle came in? Watch those two in case they fight.

 

Brute or new guy in the 'hood behavior

I never really knew between the eskie and the schnauzer, who was alpha. I always thought it was the eskie, but I know the schnauzer could take the eskie. Or at least, I think she could, she's bigger anyway.
But tonight, when Andre (the poodle) was trying to hump Greta, Gianni (the eskie) chimed in and tried snapping at the poodle for doing this to Greta. Who also was trying to stop him.

I guess I have to watch closely and see what happens. The poodle is really a very sweet and beautiful boy, but if he's going to be a bully, I don't know if I like that very much. Perhaps they will work it out themselves. It's so hard to not step in and do something.

 

Usually it will settle and a new pecking order will be formed. I'm just hoping that they dont fight or anything, and solve it peacefully.
Good luck!

 

Just a thought: If you want to discourage dominant behavior, can you try to have the other dogs fed before Andre gets his meal? Dogs on the lower end of the totem pole eat the "discards" of the more dominant members of the pack, so it may settle him down a bit.

 

Duckling is exactly right. In the wild, the Alpha gets to eat before anyone else, and when he's done, the rest is left for the "lower" members. Maybe you can seperate them when they eat if it's causing trouble or make him sit there and wait until the others are done.

 

here is a good article to read

CANINE AGGRESSION: SIBLING RIVALRY

What is a dominance hierarchy and why is it important to dogs?

Dogs are social animals whose evolutionary history makes them willing and able to live in groups. Group living enabled wolves to work together to obtain food, raise their young and defend their territory. It would be counterproductive for members of a group to fight with each other and risk injury. That would prevent them from working with the group. Therefore, dogs have a social structure in which each dog is either dominant (leader) or subordinate in its relationship with each other pack member. This is a "dominance hierarchy". The leader or "alpha" dog is the one that has first access to all the "critical" resources. These resources include food, resting places, mates, territory and favored possessions. Assertion of dominance by the alpha is generally communicated through facial expressions, body postures and actions. Fighting is rare, since as soon as the subordinate submits or defers to the alpha animal and the alpha gets its way, he or she gives up the challenge.

My dogs have lived together for some time and now they are fighting. Why?

Fights between dogs in the household are often about dominance or social status. Social status aggression most often occurs when dogs reach social maturity at 12-36 months of age. Fights will be about those resources that are considered important to dogs. Therefore fights may occur over treats, owner attention, greeting the owner upon return, sleeping positions near the owner, entering or exiting the home, high arousal situations such as fence running, or movement through tight spaces. These fights occur most often between dogs of near equal status and often, but not always, dogs of the same sex, and seem to be most severe between female dogs.

I try to treat my dogs equally, but they still fight. What am I doing wrong?

Trying to treat two dogs as equals will only serve to counter the natural tendency toward a hierarchy. The dog that is the more dominant in a relationship needs to be supported in its position and the more subordinate must be taught to accept the relationship. When you support or encourage the subordinate dog as it tries to gain access to resources such as your attention, the dominant dog may begin to challenge and fight, in an effort to keep the lower ranking dog in its " place". If you then discipline the dominant dog, or pull the dominant dog away, you have favored, supported and come to the aid of the subordinate dog.

Both my dogs are the same age, and after a third, older dog died, they began to fight - why?

Conflicts may occur between dogs when the dominance status is ambiguous or when they are particularly close in rank. After the decline, illness or death of an older dog, fighting may begin in the remaining dogs even when one is clearly dominant. This is because the older dog may have been dominant to both dogs, and now they are trying to establish new positions. In any case the fighting can be severe and injurious. Although you should generally attempt to allow dogs to resolve their differences on their own you will need to intervene if there is the potential for injury. Under no circumstances should the dogs be allowed to "fight it out". However, you could be injured due to redirected aggressive attacks, or when you attempt to break up the fight (see below).

My younger dog always deferred to the older dog, but now they fight.

One scenario that can result in social aggression is when an older, previously dominant dog, is challenged by a younger, more domineering dog. This may happen as the older dog ages, or as the younger dog reaches behavioral maturity at 12 to 36 months. This is often clearly an attempt to alter the existing hierarchy. Sometimes the older dog will acquiesce and things are fine but at other times the owners do not want the change and intervene. In some situations, the older dog will not relinquish the dominant role even though it cannot physically compete with the younger dog. This can result in severe, injurious fights.

How should I break up fighting if it occurs?

This can be a dangerous situation for people and dogs alike. Owners usually try to reach for the collar of the fighting dogs, or if one is small, pick it up. This can result in severe owner injury if the fighting is very intense. If both are wearing leashes they can usually be pulled apart. If all else fails, you might be able to break up the fight with a water rifle, broom, or another distraction (such as pepper spray or a fire extinguisher). Reaching for the dog is usually the worst thing to do, as you could be injured (either accidentally or intentionally).

When people intervene in dog fights, redirected aggression is possible. Aggression (growl, snarl or bite) can be redirected to a person, animal or object other than that which evoked the aggression. If during the course of a dog fight, you pick up one of the dogs, the other may continue to attack and direct it at you.

What should I do when one of my dogs challenges another?

Aggression between household dogs can be difficult to treat. You will need to identify the subordinate dog, and ensure that you are not encouraging the subordinate dog to challenge the more dominant. It is critical that you never come to the aid of the subordinate against the more dominant. If left alone, the dogs will often use posturing and threats to end encounters without injury. If one dog backs down, the problem may be resolved. However, when neither dog is willing to give up the dominant position (as in a young dog challenging an older dog in the home), fighting will usually result.

A common owner error is the desire to make life "fair". This often results in owners allowing subordinate dogs access to resources, such as attention, treats, toys, or entry into territory that they would not normally have. Usually the subordinate dog would not behave in a manner that would challenge the dominant when no one is around to "protect" it. If you encourage or protect the subordinate dog, it may be "tempted" to break the "rules", and the dominant dog may become aggressive to enforce the "rules". If you then punish the dominant dog for aggression, the subordinate dog learns it can engage in prohibited behavior while the owner is present. This is why, in many households, there is no fighting when the owners are gone. The subordinate is aware of the hierarchy, and does nothing to challenge the dominant dog, unless the owners are around to intervene.

How can I treat this problem?

Although the dominance relationship between the two dogs must be dealt with, the first step is for the owner to gain complete control over both dogs. As leader or alpha your presence and commands should be sufficient to prevent all dominance challenges between dogs and to intervene as needed when threats emerge. Control of each dog is achieved through the use of verbal commands, by leaving a leash and head halter attached for immediate control, and by withholding all rewards unless earned. Attention on demand not only encourages situations where one dog may challenge the other, but also allows your dogs to control you. Inattention on demand teaches the dogs that all rewards are provided only when you choose, and reduces or eliminates those situations where challenges might occur. Head halter with leash control and obedience-reward based training of each dog should first be done separately. With a head halter and remote leash on each dog you will have effective control, and a means of controlling and separating the dogs if needed. With control of the head and mouth, aggressive threats can be curtailed and either dog can be placed in a subordinate posture, by pulling up on the leash, closing the mouth, looking the dog in the eyes, or pulling the head sideways so that the dog's gaze is averted.

Next, treatment must be designed to identify and support the dominant dog. In most cases this is the younger, larger, more physically capable dog. Often, this is also the aggressor. You must allow the dominant dog priority to go outside, to come in, or to receive food or owner attention and affection. If you are petting the dominant dog and the subordinate dog approaches, make it wait. Avoid all circumstances that elicit aggression. If the more dominant dog approaches or challenges the subordinate dog and the subordinate dog assumes a subordinate posture, the owners are not to intervene as long as the dominant dogs stop. If the dogs are likely to fight when you are away or at homecomings, separate the dogs whenever you are out, or are not available to supervise.

On other occasions, neither dog is willing to be subordinate. This could be due to a challenge to the hierarchy as a younger dog matures, as an older dog becomes sick or aged, when a new dog is introduced into the home, or when one dog is not clearly dominant to the other. You should learn how to recognize canine body language and low level threats such as eye contact, snarls or low growls. Keep records of threats, attacks, or tension producing situations. An owner must have excellent control over both dogs in order to succeed. To facilitate treatment, decrease the chances of injuries and increase owner control, a remote leash can be left attached to one or both dogs. Often the best form of owner control is to fit and train each dog with a head halter, and to leave a leash and head halter on each dog when they are together (under the owner's supervision).

Once you have gained sufficient control over both dogs, and have identified the more dominant, you will need to deal with the circumstances that might elicit aggression. Greetings should be low key, and both dogs should be ignored. Treats are avoided and rawhides or other delicious things are not given unless the dogs are separated or on leash. Movement through tight spaces is avoided or controlled. You must be present to ensure that the dominant dog gains preferential access to food, resting places, territory, owner attention and treats. Commands and rewards or the leash and halter can be used to ensure that the subordinate does not challenge, and that the dominant does not continue to show aggression once the subordinate submits. Getting the dogs together without incident can best be accomplished when the dogs are otherwise occupied and when a confrontation is unlikely, such as during walks or feeding. It is usually best to have two individuals to walk the dogs (each person controls one dog) and not to allow them to forge in front of one another. During feeding, keep the dogs at a distance, far enough apart that they do not show aggression. Slowly the dishes are moved closer together as long as the dogs do not react. The food serves as a reward in this situation. If the dogs react, the food bowls are moved further apart. When the owner is not home or supervising the dogs, the dogs are separated or crated.

Basket muzzles could be left on each dog to increase safety while the dogs are together. They can also be used to "proof" the training, by putting the dogs together in situations that previously led to aggression. Drug therapy for one or both dogs may also be useful.

Can social aggression always be corrected?

At times aggression may persist despite owner control and intervention. In those cases alternate living arrangements for one of the animals may need to be made.

 

I totally agree with mypettherapydogs post. To 'favour' the subordinates over the alpha dog will cause problems among them.

As for the 'humping', it can be dominance, it can also be habit, it can be a 'learned behaviour'...i.e an owner sees their dog mounting another dog, even though they were spayed or neutered at an early age, the owners reaction is to either yell, make a fuss, push the mounting dog away....the dog has learnt right there and then that behaviour gets him/her some kind of attention.
I had situation where, at one time, both my dogs and one of the cats would mount any of the others, the 'dominant' dog actually did it less than the cat and the subordinate dog.....go figure!!! I found an unexpected water/squirt bottle effective enough to stop the behaviour.

 

I've always wondered which of my dogs was the alpha dog. They are both food aggressive and I have always fed them apart. I used to separate them with a gate, but now I feed them at oposite ends of the kitchen and just hang around to deter any fights. Brie is the one that always postures and threatens and Zoey just jumps on Brie. There is always a problem at feeding time though, when my Mom's dogs or any other dog comes over. I really have to separate everybody! Still wondering here who's the alpha....

And my Mom's female pom always humps my male cat whenever she comes over. He is way bigger than her too! It's pretty funny, actually. He will meow a protest and fall out on the floor.

 

Thats interesting. 2 dogs I had years ago, I always thought the female was the donimant one, she would take all the chewies or toys and lay on them so he couldnt have any, she would stand in front of his food bowl while eating her own food, she would nudge him out of the way to get some attention, all the signs pointed to her being the alpha, and he backed off from her every time...casually...like he could care less, then one day I gave them both a big raw meaty knuckle bone, she walked over to take his bone away, he didnt move but I could hear the low growl from across the room and she moved away immediately, turned out he was actually the alpha, he just had more of a laid back personality and only used his 'authority' when absolutely necessary.

 

I think there's more to the rules of canine heirarchy than we humans fully understand. I've observed some things that don't make any sense, by the standard interpretation of pack dominance, and I have come to believe there are some things that don't necessarily fit the mold.

At one time I had 10 dogs that pretty much functioned as a pack. There were 5 beagles, 4 bitches and one dog, all siblings; 3 dachshunds, a mother and son plus one unrelated male; and two bull terriers, both bitches and unrelated. Only one of the dogs, a bull terrier, was intact.

It would have appeared to any casual observer that the dachshund bitch was the alpha. And she ruled with an iron paw. Even the bull terriers bowed to her authority. But on several occasions one of the beagle bitches, who had a very dominant personality, would challenge her, always looking for an opportunity to move up in rank.

When a squabble broke out between the two, I tended to let them work it out unless it looked like someone was going to draw blood. But on a couple of those occasions it became obvious that the dachshund's son had heard enough and took matters into his own hands. He'd absolutely fly across the room, barrelling into the middle of the ruckus, and send both girls rolling. Then he'd stand over the beagle and stare her down before returning to whatever it was he'd been doing in the first place. Only once did I ever see him challenge his mother, or attempt to stare her down. And she definately did NOT submit to him. He got three stitches in his lip after that one.

On the bottom of the totem pole was the other dachshund. He was a totally submissive dog, very humble and unobtrusive. If he was playing with a toy and one of the other dogs approached, he'd quickly surrender the toy and move away. Food or real bones were another story, however. If he was eating or chewing a real bone, he'd growl a warning, which every other dog respected. The only time I ever saw him surrender a bone was when one of the beagles played "I'm the baby, you have to feed me", squeeking, rolling on it's back and licking his face to ask for the bone.

So I still wonder who, besides me, was calling the shots. Some of their behavior just didn't fit the standard order we've been taught should exist in a pack. But they sure were an interesting, entertaining bunch.

 

That squeeking, rolling over, licking at the mouth thing is what my Mom's male pom does to Zoey. He just stays away from Brie--I think she got him one time. And he is bigger than anyone--except the cat. When all 4 dogs are together, Zoey is definately in charge.

I just got them new cow hooves. They are quite nasty with part of the leg and tendons in there. The girls turn into demons when I put hand them out. I have to separate them with a gate and both of them growl and snarl whenever anything comes near. Poor cats thought something dead was in the house and needed covering up. The first day they chewed on those things for hours. Now Brie just tries to bury hers and Zoey walks around the house with it and snarls at anyone that looks at it. She will sniff it out too, wherever I try to put it. I caught her trying to climb a bookcase. Needless to say, they haven't had them in a few days.

 

An update on the pack

Hi All,

Just thought I'd check in and let you know how the little pack is coming along.

When it comes time to feeding, what I have done is this. I have one of those small chain leashes and I have it tied to the refrigerator. I give Andre his food, right in front of the refrigerator, and I give Gianni his food about 4 feet to the left, which is where I have my portable dishwasher. Greta, the mini schnauzer gets fed in the sunroom/office, which is right inbetween the dishwasher, and refrigerator. So, everyone is near each other, but Andre cannot try and take the others food. After they are all finished, I let him off. Bu only then. Which doesn't take long for 3 little dogs to eat.

I know I could take him out on the deck, or put him in a crate, or something, but I thought by being around the others, he will learn that there is enough to go around and he doesn't have to compete. I don't know if that will work, but at least I am in control of any fighting over food.

The little beagle (Holly), I have in her crate while they eat because I just got her back from being spayed on Friday. Don't want them to play too rough with her.

Something I have noticed when I bring them all inside. They run around like little maniacs and sort of rough house it, play and all. But when Greta comes to me to be petted, Andre always tries to either, hump her, or push her out of the way. She will have no part of it and growl and stand her ground.

But when this happens, Giannia (the eskie) comes to Greta's rescue. Not that she needs rescuing. But is this a way to tell that Gianni is perhaps the alpha of the pack? He does this every time Andre tries anything with her.

Or, do you think Greta is the alpha since Andre seems to try and start things with her more than Gianni?

Just curious.

 

Sounds like you are figuring things out! Everything I have read says to let them work out their order among themselves, with you intervening only if someone is going to get hurt. You shouldn't scold them for growling or snapping as long as it is done appropriately. It's just a dog's way of saying "Back off!"

As for separating them while eating - this is always a prudent thing to do with any dog. My dogs are both submissive dogs, but I feed them separately. Nala would take Bonnie's food and I think she would let her for a day or two, but then she'd get tired of it and they may end up fighting. I just separate them when they eat and all is well.

I also never leave out a high value treat or toy when they are unattended. I always supervise and if they are getting special treats, I separate them.

Two of my sister's dogs just got into a fight over treats left unattended and one had to be stitched. :cry:

It sounds to me like Gianni is above Greta because he is trying to protect her. Andre is jealous and wants the attention you are showing Greta. When my Nala does this, I just pet both of them. It did get better with time, once they both realized that I love them both and pay attention to both of them. Make sure you don't escalate situations by freaking out whenever someone growls or you will be communicating to the dogs that there is something wrong in this situation.

The "pack order" is also something that's not written in stone. Especially among females, they can change depending on circumstance - like one is "alpha" when they eat and a different one when they play, etc. For the most part, the whole "alpha" and "dominance" thing has been way overblown.

I have no idea which of my dogs is "alpha." Nala is certainly pushier and Bonnie lets her get away with it, but I think that is more due to her personality and she just doesn't care who goes through a door first.