BARF diet, some ?s

ilovemycockatiels · Sep 6, 2005

I was thinking about giving my puppy raw foods sometimes but I was wondering about raw chicken bones... They're okay right? We were making chicken wings cutting the wing part off, are those okay? or too small? By the way... When I took my puppy to the vet when she had parvo, the vet had asked me if she had any salmon or trout because it's not good for them, so if u didn't know that I want you all to know about that so none of your dogs get sick. She said that the salmon and trout enlarges their lymph nodes and causes some kind of infection, I can't remember the name of it. Anyways... back to my questions... I heard on websites that raw chicken bones are okay because they break instead of splintering, I am posting this to double check. Also, we had pork ribs for dinner and I was wondering if those bones are okay for dogs whether they are cooked or raw? Are all bones okay raw or what? Whats okay cooked? <those are asking a lot of questions at once but I just don't want to write them out. It would be too long and boring lol Thanks in advance for any replies.

I have one more random question that has nothing to do with the BARF diet... When you are putting a pic in your signature, does it cost money? and How do you do it. I got to my profile where you can do it but I'm not sure how. Sorry for such a long post..

Ashley

Jamiya · Sep 7, 2005

Here is some info that I copied from my previous posts on this topic:

A good rule of thumb to start off with is to feed the dog 2-3% of their ideal adult weight per day. Then you adjust up or down based on how the dog looks and acts. You should be able to feel the ribs easily but not see them and there should be a narrowing at the waist when you look down from above.

I am less certain about amounts for the pup. Raw is definitely safe for puppies - in fact, weaning them directly to raw is awesome! I have heard 10% of their current weight, and also 2-3% of the ideal ADULT weight. You might want to join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/ and ask there - many have fed pups. With a large breed dog like a Shepherd, it's better to feed less than more - you don't want him to grow too quickly and end up with joint and bone problems.

Any kind of raw meaty bones are safe. Some say to avoid the large marrow-filled weight-bearing bones of ungulates because they are too hard and can cause tooth breakage. Others say it is fine. Things I regularly feed my dogs are pork ribs, pork necks, chicken leg quarters, whole chickens hacked up into appropriate-sized chunks, any cut of beef I can afford, turkey legs, turkey wings, rabbit, whole raw fish. You also need to feed organ meats, which should comprise about 10% of the diet. It's pretty easy to find chicken hearts, gizzards (not an organ but still a good food), and liver; and beef liver, kidney, and heart. Sometimes I can find turkey giblets. My rabbits come with the organs included. I recently found pork stomachs and the dogs loved it! Green tripe is also a really good food, but it's hard to find. What you find in stores has been bleached - you don't want that.

Bigger pieces are better - the more the dog has to tear and rip and crunch, the better! Some people feed on the "gorge and fast" method, which they feel simulates how a dog eats in the wild. In the wild, a dog (or pack) may bring down a kill on one day and feast on it. The next day they would clean up the leftovers. Then it might be a day or two before they bring down a new kill. So people who feed this way will feed a huge meal one day, fast the next and maybe feed light meals for a day or two. They aren't really strict about it, but they try to make sure that a week averages out to the right amount of food, in general. Most of these people feed once daily. Most of them also swear by fasting your dog for one day a week.

I do better with more structure and I like to feed twice. I feed my dogs a very small meal in the morning - organ meats or canned fish (I don't have much access to whole raw fish in Kansas). I also give them a whole organic egg a few times a week in the morning. This is great fun - take them outside and hand them an egg and see what they do with it! Nala was hysterical the first time she was trying to figure out what it was. Now she gently takes it from my hand and goes to lie down in her favorite spot. Then she very delicately punctures the egg with a canine tooth and then laps the egg up from inside the shell. Sometimes she eats the shell and sometimes she doesn't. Bonnie rolls the egg around with her nose and paws at it. It take her forever to puncture it and eat it!

The second meal I feed in the evenings. This is their raw meaty bone and comprises the bulk of their diet. My dogs are about 40-50 pounds. They eat 16-20 ounces per day, so usually their dinner is about 10-16 ounces. Some foods, like beef I can afford, don't have much bone, so I feed things with more bone on the next day. Things like chicken wings and backs have too much bone, so if you feed them you should feed more meat from some other source either at the same time or the next day. Remember, none of this is written in stone. Chicken wings and necks are terribly small for most dogs - I don't feed them at all unless they are attached to the rest of the bird.

Generally, I will give them a raw meaty bone in the evening that is about a pound, give or take. Then the next day or two, I will give them one that's more like 10 ounces. Nala tends to plump up, so I watch her more closely. Often I feed her less than Bonnie (even though she is a bigger dog than Bonnie) because she tends to fat, whereas Bonnie could probably eat a buffalo every day and not show an ounce of it.

More variety is better. You want as many different protein sources and cuts as you can manage - beef, chicken, duck, turkey, game hen, buffalo, rabbit, deer, goat, etc. However, you should start slowly. Start with chicken and feed only chicken for the first week. Watch the organ meats - start out with very small amounts. Organ meats can give some dogs the runs, so moderation is good and you can slowly increase if they do okay. Liver is very important to feed - but you CAN OVERDOSE on liver. As I said before, 10% of the diet should be organ meats, so with my dogs eating 16-20 ounces per day, I generally give about 4 ounces of organ meats every other day. I figure a chicken liver or beef liver cut to the size of a chicken liver is a good size, and then I throw in whatever other organs I have - beef kidney, heart, etc. After the first week if your dogs are doing well, you can start adding in other kinds of meat. Their stool should be MUCH smaller after a day or two of feeding raw. They will also probably drink a lot less water since they will be getting more water in their food.

What's even better is to feed whole prey. Throw a chicken (plucked or unplucked) at the dog and let him go nuts! Then they get everything - eyes, brains, organs, etc - in the right proportions. Then feed less the next day or two if the chicken was large. Some dogs will eat it all, and some will bury it for later.

As for cost, it can be expensive at grocery stores. I tend to use things like chicken leg quarters (37 cents per pound) 2-3 times per week which allows me to spend a little more on other things. Talk to the meat counter guy and see if you can order some stuff in bulk. Sometimes things like chicken backs just get thrown away and you can get them for cheap or for free. Same with most organs. If you can find meat processors or restaurant suppliers in your area, they can be a great source. Ask local hunters who butchers their meat and talk to that guy. Find local farms and fairs. Look for ethnic markets. And look for a local raw feeders co-op - if you have one of those you are set!

Also, I used to weigh everything so I had a general idea how much I was feeding. Once I got used to the cuts I used and the sizes they are, I don't weigh anymore. I just eyeball it and call it good. If the dogs start to plump up, I cut back. I have found that I need to feed them less in the summer as well.

One thing to remember is that you are not trying to provide a totally balanced meal at every feeding. It should all average out in the end. So, say someone gives you a whole deer for some reason. Go ahead and feed nothing but venison until it is gone, but then go back to your variety after that.

I highly recommend the Yahoo rawfeeding group when you are getting started. It's scary to start feeding this way because we have been taught that we are too stupid to possibly be able to feed our dogs ourselves. But when you stop to realize that we feed our KIDS without having a "scientifically formulated, completely balanced" kibble, then you have to think that perhaps we have just been brainwashed...
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Jamiya · Sep 7, 2005

More:

In my opinion, raw food is the best possible nutrition for your dog. It is the way they were intended by nature to eat. Dry kibble and canned food compromise the immune system, introduce poisons into the system, and are the cause of many health problems that often don't appear until later in life. Poor dental health is an obvious one that leads to many other conditions if not corrected. Food allergies are also on the rise, due to the practice of feeding your dog the exact same food day in and day out - a food that often is not highly utilized by your dog's body. As for cooked food - this is not appropriate for dogs. Cooking destroys some nutrients and changes others. Also, cooked bones should not be fed, and meat alone is NOT a balanced diet for your dog. Meat alone will HARM your dog very quickly, especially puppies.

I feed raw according to the prey model - meaning as close as possible to how a dog would eat prey in the wild. Since I don't have access to whole carcasses, I feed a variety of raw MEATY bones to my dogs - pork ribs, pork necks, chicken leg quarters, beef cuts, turkey legs and wings, rabbits, etc. Bones should be RAW and 75% meat/25% bone. I also feed organ meats, which comprise about 10% of the total diet - beef and chicken livers, kidney, heart, etc. The more variety, the merrier. I also feed whole raw fish and supplement with wild fish oil capsules for the extra omega-3's. A whole egg a couple times a week rounds out the diet.

Cooked bones should NOT be fed to your dog. They can splinter and cause many problems inside your dog. Many people also say to not feed the marrow bones of large animals (weight-bearing bones) because they may cause teeth to break.

Raw feeding promotes a healthy immune system which makes other interventions - such as antibiotics, pesticides, etc - not needed. Raw meaty bones keep the teeth clean, so that dental work is never needed. It improves the musculature of the neck and shoulders. It provides mental and physical exercise for the dog, who actually has to work to eat rather than just snarfing down a bowl full of dry kibble. Bloat does not occur in rawfed dogs (to my knowledge). It also has other benefits like less smelly dogs, and small well-formed and almost odorless stool. To me, this is the definitive proof that the diet is good for the dog. The huge, squishy, stinky stool produced by kibble-fed dogs shows you that the food is mostly fillers that the dog's body cannot process. On a raw diet, the majority of the food is actually used by the dog, making the stool small and firm. In a couple days it dries up completely and blows away - we never have to pooper scooper our yard anymore.

And also - dogs LOVE it! They are excited about eating and it takes up time and energy, which those of us with hyper dogs really appreciate!

Here are a couple links you can look at for more info:

http://www.bullovedbulldogs.com/sarf.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/rawdog/
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Jamiya · Sep 7, 2005

And another:

And here's EXACTLY what I do.

Remember, I am not an authority. I have been feeding this way for less than 2 years. This is just what works for me, and there are many other acceptable ways to do it. I am more regimented than some, but that's just how I am.

I go to Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market. I buy a 10-lb. bag of chicken leg quarters for $3.70 (can't beat 37 cents per pound). I buy pork - usually pork ribs in a big slab (pricier) or sometimes strips of bone-in pork shoulder (I think that's what they are). Any meat that is reduced (usually because it is close to the expiration date) and has bone in it, I buy. I buy whole raw, whole tilapia (they come two to a package). Then I look for whatever else I can find - turkey legs are usually pretty cheap, game hens aren't too bad, I once found lamb really cheap (I bought all they had, LOL). I buy chicken gizzards and hearts, chicken livers, beef liver, beef heart, beef kidney, beef tongue, beef cheekmeat. Sometimes I use these beef items for the small morning meal so they are getting beef proteins since I can't afford many cuts of bone-in beef. Lately I have been getting "meaty" beef ribs, although there really isn't much meat on them. I avoid soup bones. Sometimes I get things like pork feet, pork tails, pork stomach - these are things I would feed for the small morning meal. I also get canned Alaska salmon, canned sardines (in water, no salt added), and canned Jack Mackerel. I used to get canned tuna (in water, no salt) but Bonnie threw it up twice so I stopped.

I go home. I open the bag of chicken leg quarters and bag them in gallon bags - two leg quarters in each bag, because I have two dogs. I put these in the downstairs extra freezer. I cut the pork ribs, usually in portions containing two ribs since this is about the right size for my dogs. If I bought pork already cut, I put it in gallon bags, each bag containing enough to feed both dogs. I put turkey legs in gallon bags, two to a bag.....get the picture? Basically, I just portion everything up all at once and then bag them so that each bag contains enough for both dogs for one meal. Then they all get frozen.

Morning meal items (organs, other odds and ends) usually just get dumped into a plastic container and frozen that way. For instance, beef heart I put in a container and then when I use it I can just use a fork to take out enough for each dog for that morning. I use it every morning until it is gone, and then I pick something else for morning meals. Liver gets fed almost every day, in small amounts. I don't feed the canned fish very often. Usually once a week.

From the freezer, I take out enough food for 2-3 days and put it in the refrigerator. I actually have one of those dorm refrigerators that I use exclusively for pet food now, since I refrigerate things for the dogs, birds, possum, etc. I feed the food thawed. In the morning, I put food in dog bowls (organ meats or other odds and ends or canned fish), put Nala's outside the back door and Bonnie eats inside the back door. For the evening meal, both dogs eat outside - Nala tied to a chain and Bonnie loose on the other side of the deck. This is to prevent Nala from hogging all the food. I just ask the dogs to sit, toss the food on the ground, and then release them to eat.

I feed the fish oil and garlic supplements in the morning, usually every day although sometimes I forget. If I can't remember if I fed them, I skip it.

I usually only go buy food every couple weeks or so. Or sometimes I go more often but only buy a few things so I don't have as much to package when I get home. It really doesn't take long, though.

Did I leave anything out??
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ilovemycockatiels · Sep 7, 2005

my vet told me that salmon and trout are bad, I'm not sure about tuna or any others. She said they can get an infection from eating salmon or trout and it enlarges their lymph nodes, so I don't know...

Jamiya · Sep 7, 2005

Pacific Northwest salmon can carry a parasite whose name I forget. It has to be deep frozen for something like 6 months before feeding it. I just don't feed it at all, just in case. I feed whole, raw tilapia and the tuna and other fish are canned so there is no problem with that. I don't feed canned fish very often, though. It's not as good because it is processed and there are no bones and often there is salt added. I feed it about once a week for variety for breakfast and the sardines I get don't have salt.

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