Casper - raw food info

I am going to cut and paste since I am at work. Some of this info will probably repeat itself, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I'll put the info in several replies...

 

In my opinion, raw food is the best possible nutrition for your dog. It is the way they were intended by nature to eat. Dry kibble and canned food compromise the immune system, introduce poisons into the system, and are the cause of many health problems that often don't appear until later in life. Poor dental health is an obvious one that leads to many other conditions if not corrected. Food allergies are also on the rise, due to the practice of feeding your dog the exact same food day in and day out - a food that often is not highly utilized by your dog's body. As for cooked food - this is not appropriate for dogs. Cooking destroys some nutrients and changes others. Also, cooked bones should not be fed, and meat alone is NOT a balanced diet for your dog. Meat alone will HARM your dog very quickly, especially puppies.

I feed raw according to the prey model - meaning as close as possible to how a dog would eat prey in the wild. Since I don't have access to whole carcasses, I feed a variety of raw MEATY bones to my dogs - pork ribs, pork necks, chicken leg quarters, beef cuts, turkey legs and wings, rabbits, etc. Bones should be RAW and 75% meat/25% bone. I also feed organ meats, which comprise about 10% of the total diet - beef and chicken livers, kidney, heart, etc. The more variety, the merrier. I also feed whole raw fish and supplement with wild fish oil capsules for the extra omega-3's. A whole egg a couple times a week rounds out the diet.

Cooked bones should NOT be fed to your dog. They can splinter and cause many problems inside your dog. Many people also say to not feed the marrow bones of large animals (weight-bearing bones) because they may cause teeth to break.

Raw feeding promotes a healthy immune system which makes other interventions - such as antibiotics, pesticides, etc - not needed. Raw meaty bones keep the teeth clean, so that dental work is never needed. It improves the musculature of the neck and shoulders. It provides mental and physical exercise for the dog, who actually has to work to eat rather than just snarfing down a bowl full of dry kibble. Bloat does not occur in rawfed dogs (to my knowledge). It also has other benefits like less smelly dogs, and small well-formed and almost odorless stool. To me, this is the definitive proof that the diet is good for the dog. The huge, squishy, stinky stool produced by kibble-fed dogs shows you that the food is mostly fillers that the dog's body cannot process. On a raw diet, the majority of the food is actually used by the dog, making the stool small and firm. In a couple days it dries up completely and blows away - we never have to pooper scooper our yard anymore.

And also - dogs LOVE it! They are excited about eating and it takes up time and energy, which those of us with hyper dogs really appreciate!

Here are a couple links you can look at for more info:

http://www.bullovedbulldogs.com/sarf.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/rawdog/

 

A good rule of thumb to start off with is to feed the dog 2-3% of their ideal adult weight per day. Then you adjust up or down based on how the dog looks and acts. You should be able to feel the ribs easily but not see them and there should be a narrowing at the waist when you look down from above.

I am less certain about amounts for the pup. Raw is definitely safe for puppies - in fact, weaning them directly to raw is awesome! I have heard 10% of their current weight, and also 2-3% of the ideal ADULT weight. You might want to join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/ and ask there - many have fed pups. With a large breed dog like a Shepherd, it's better to feed less than more - you don't want him to grow too quickly and end up with joint and bone problems.

Any kind of raw meaty bones are safe. Some say to avoid the large marrow-filled weight-bearing bones of ungulates because they are too hard and can cause tooth breakage. Others say it is fine. Things I regularly feed my dogs are pork ribs, pork necks, chicken leg quarters, whole chickens hacked up into appropriate-sized chunks, any cut of beef I can afford, turkey legs, turkey wings, rabbit, whole raw fish. You also need to feed organ meats, which should comprise about 10% of the diet. It's pretty easy to find chicken hearts, gizzards (not an organ but still a good food), and liver; and beef liver, kidney, and heart. Sometimes I can find turkey giblets. My rabbits come with the organs included. I recently found pork stomachs and the dogs loved it! Green tripe is also a really good food, but it's hard to find. What you find in stores has been bleached - you don't want that.

Bigger pieces are better - the more the dog has to tear and rip and crunch, the better! Some people feed on the "gorge and fast" method, which they feel simulates how a dog eats in the wild. In the wild, a dog (or pack) may bring down a kill on one day and feast on it. The next day they would clean up the leftovers. Then it might be a day or two before they bring down a new kill. So people who feed this way will feed a huge meal one day, fast the next and maybe feed light meals for a day or two. They aren't really strict about it, but they try to make sure that a week averages out to the right amount of food, in general. Most of these people feed once daily. Most of them also swear by fasting your dog for one day a week.

I do better with more structure and I like to feed twice. I feed my dogs a very small meal in the morning - organ meats or canned fish (I don't have much access to whole raw fish in Kansas). I also give them a whole organic egg a few times a week in the morning. This is great fun - take them outside and hand them an egg and see what they do with it! Nala was hysterical the first time she was trying to figure out what it was. Now she gently takes it from my hand and goes to lie down in her favorite spot. Then she very delicately punctures the egg with a canine tooth and then laps the egg up from inside the shell. Sometimes she eats the shell and sometimes she doesn't. Bonnie rolls the egg around with her nose and paws at it. It take her forever to puncture it and eat it!

The second meal I feed in the evenings. This is their raw meaty bone and comprises the bulk of their diet. My dogs are about 40-50 pounds. They eat 16-20 ounces per day, so usually their dinner is about 10-16 ounces. Some foods, like beef I can afford, don't have much bone, so I feed things with more bone on the next day. Things like chicken wings and backs have too much bone, so if you feed them you should feed more meat from some other source either at the same time or the next day. Remember, none of this is written in stone. Chicken wings and necks are terribly small for most dogs - I don't feed them at all unless they are attached to the rest of the bird.

Generally, I will give them a raw meaty bone in the evening that is about a pound, give or take. Then the next day or two, I will give them one that's more like 10 ounces. Nala tends to plump up, so I watch her more closely. Often I feed her less than Bonnie (even though she is a bigger dog than Bonnie) because she tends to fat, whereas Bonnie could probably eat a buffalo every day and not show an ounce of it.

More variety is better. You want as many different protein sources and cuts as you can manage - beef, chicken, duck, turkey, game hen, buffalo, rabbit, deer, goat, etc. However, you should start slowly. Start with chicken and feed only chicken for the first week. Watch the organ meats - start out with very small amounts. Organ meats can give some dogs the runs, so moderation is good and you can slowly increase if they do okay. Liver is very important to feed - but you CAN OVERDOSE on liver. As I said before, 10% of the diet should be organ meats, so with my dogs eating 16-20 ounces per day, I generally give about 4 ounces of organ meats every other day. I figure a chicken liver or beef liver cut to the size of a chicken liver is a good size, and then I throw in whatever other organs I have - beef kidney, heart, etc. After the first week if your dogs are doing well, you can start adding in other kinds of meat. Their stool should be MUCH smaller after a day or two of feeding raw. They will also probably drink a lot less water since they will be getting more water in their food.

What's even better is to feed whole prey. Throw a chicken (plucked or unplucked) at the dog and let him go nuts! Then they get everything - eyes, brains, organs, etc - in the right proportions. Then feed less the next day or two if the chicken was large. Some dogs will eat it all, and some will bury it for later.

As for cost, it can be expensive at grocery stores. I tend to use things like chicken leg quarters (37 cents per pound) 2-3 times per week which allows me to spend a little more on other things. Talk to the meat counter guy and see if you can order some stuff in bulk. Sometimes things like chicken backs just get thrown away and you can get them for cheap or for free. Same with most organs. If you can find meat processors or restaurant suppliers in your area, they can be a great source. Ask local hunters who butchers their meat and talk to that guy. Find local farms and fairs. Look for ethnic markets. And look for a local raw feeders co-op - if you have one of those you are set!

 

In answer to myths about raw feeding:

Nothing in life is without risk. Dogs can choke and die eating kibble. Dogs can bloat and die eating kibble. Some dogs have contracted e.coli from kibble and died. You can be walking your dog on the sidewalk when a car swerves, runs up on the sidewalk and kills you both. The trick is to weigh pros and cons, benefits and risks (and the relative likelihood of each), and choose the best course for you and your family (pets included).

Dogs are at a lower risk for getting sick from bacteria that may be in raw food - their digestive tracts are shorter and more acidic than ours are. Let's not forget, they lick their own butts. People could get very sick if they tried to do that!

As for bones being dangerous - COOKED bones can splinter and get stuck. RAW bones are generally safe. Again, nothing is 100%. Dogs have choked on kibble and died. Rawhide kills many dogs as well. Some people say to avoid the large marrow bones because they can break teeth and some dogs have managed to get a lower jaw wedged inside the center of the bones. Then again, some dogs manage to get their heads stuck in fences - right, Sarge?!

As for cooked food - this is not appropriate for dogs. Cooking destroys some nutrients and changes others. Also, cooked bones should not be fed, and meat alone is NOT a balanced diet for your dog. Meat alone will HARM your dog very quickly, especially puppies.

Now let's think about what we know about people food. Do you think that vitamin-fortified cereal is a good substitute for fresh fruits and vegetables? How many times have you heard that fresh foods are better than taking a vitamin tablet? How many times have scientists decided that this food or that food is good or bad? How many times have they revised their "recommended daily allowances"? Do you REALLY think scientists know exactly what nutrients every person needs in the exact amounts in order to be healthy? Of course not! It's the same for dogs.

There is a difference between "adequate" nutrition and "optimum" nutrition. Adequate nutrition will keep your dog alive and reasonably healthy for a number of years. As the dog ages, it will get arthritis and possibly kidney disease, blindness, thyroid problems, or even cancer. Along the way, he may develop food allergies and need to be on some specialty food.

With optimum nutrition, your dog has everything they need for a healthy immune system. A healthy immune system means less antibitoics and pesticides are needed to keep your dog healthy. The diseases of aging are less frequent and often absent in dogs that have received optimal nutrition their whole lives. Some dogs already suffering from arthritis, or epilepsy, or some other disease, have seen a reverse in their conditions when going on a raw diet. Some that are allergic to chicken in kibble, for example, can eat chicken raw without a problem.

Dogs evolved in the wild to eat raw food. They are genetically identical to wolves. Raw meaty bones keep the teeth clean and the immune system healthy.

Many of the diseases that dogs and cats frequently get now were not present 60 years ago, before kibble was widely available. Australian vets have seen this transformation more recently, as kibble only became popular there about 30 years ago. Dr. Ian Billinghurst noticed his dogs started getting all sorts of diseases when he started them on kibble. He didn't connect it at first, but later he did and when he switched his dogs back to raw foods, they were healthy again! Cats only recently became more popular as indoor pets. At that time, people brought them in from the barn and started feeding them kibble and vaccinating them every year, etc. Now cats are getting many of the diseases that dogs are, that were unheard of when they were mostly barn cats that hunted for themselves!

Here is a site where you can check out answers to common myths about raw feeding: http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/rawdog/

Another site that explains it well is here: http://www.bullovedbulldogs.com/sarf.htm

You can also read "Raw Meaty Bones" by Tom Lonsdale for more info on why raw is better.

 

If you decide to go with a better kibble, things to look for are all natural ingredients, no chemical preservatives, not too much filler, no corn, etc. This page will help you get started: http://www.naturapet.com/. It is Innova's site, so of course they will say their food is the best. But you have to judge for yourself and see what works for you and your dogs. Specifically, look for the "Site Tools" on the lower right side of that home page. The Food Comparison gives you some brands to look at, and the Ingredients section tells you what the names on the bags REALLY mean.

This is Canidae's site and it has some good info also: http://www.canidae.com/. Specifically, look at the "meat vs. meal" link.

This is a scary page about kibble that will give you a lot of info: http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm.

And a journal that I have found helpful many times is Whole Dog Journal (http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/). You can get a 14-day free trial online. They do ratings of dry and canned food every year that are helpful (if you feed kibble or canned).

 

Jamaya,
One question I have is where do you feed your dogs. From this post I assume it's outside. I feed the boys inside right now which I assume would not be real smart with a raw diet. I also have a large wood deck that could turn into a mess if I fed them there. How do you handle the mess. I would think the dogs would clean themeselves like a cat would do after eating.
I just have this vision of my wood deck eventually looking gross.

 

Good question!

For one thing, I have to keep the dogs separate when they eat or Nala will steal all the food and Bonnie lets her. Eventually I'm sure Bonnie would fight back, so I just avoid the situation by keeping them apart.

Their raw, meaty bones I feed outside in the yard. I used to put them both on tie out lines in their favorite places to eat. The lines stay out 24/7 so I don't have to set them up every day. Nala's is attached to a tree and Bonnie's to the swingset. Now I don't bother with Bonnie's because she pretty much stays and eats wherever you put her.

I snap on Nala's collar, take them outside, put Nala on the tie out, give her a command or two which she must obey right away, then have her sit, dump the food on the ground, then release her to eat. Then I walk with Bonnie to her spot, have her sit, dump the food on the ground, and release her to eat.

On very nasty days, I have been known to stand with an umbrella over Nala but that was before we got Bonnie. Now I will sometimes feed Bonnie on the deck so she doesn't get all muddy.

They consume ALL the bones, so there is nothing left over. The exception would be very hard bones like beef bones. Oh, and the whole deer legs I got from a hunter (ick ick ick) were not consumed either. They sure are clean now, though, and provide good recreation. Egg on the deck isn't a good idea, although if it was well waterproofed it would be fine. As it is, the egg soaks into the wood and then the dogs keep licking at it and I worry they will chew the deck apart now that it is flavored. I try to avoid that.

For "breakfast" I put it in their bowls since it is squishy organ meats or canned fish, mostly. For that, I put Nala's bowl down right outside the back door on the deck. Bonnie stays inside to eat. They don't make a mess with that stuff so it's okay.

Other people have different solutions. Some train the dog to stay in a corner of the kitchen or on a towel (the "eating towel") or feed in a crate. I tried the crate thing with Nala on a really snowy, cold day a few times, but it doesn't work for her. She doesn't like to eat in her crate so it turns into a whole production. And then I have to clean the crate pan. And once I put a towel down outside so she wouldn't have to lie in the snow, but she carefully avoided it. I think she likes to lie in snow.

Nala lies down when she eats and gnaws on her meat and bones while it rests on the ground or between her paws. Even when I hand her an egg on the deck, she will carry it to her "spot" and lie down to eat it. Bonnie stands up and puts a foot on her food and rips and tears at it. I really need to video them in action sometime. Maybe on fish day - they eat the heads first. Ick.

 

Jimiya, I recently read be careful giving dogs and cats canned fish, depending how often you feed them because of the mercury content

honeybear

 

I haven't read your entire post yet but am posting question as I go.

You're positive bones won't harm my dogs? My vet told me of an incident where small dog got hold of a bone and it went through his esophagus (not sure if it was cooked or not though). I've never given them small bones since.

On a side note, on an odd occasion, buy really big cow bones that have been cooked. They're a no-no?

 

Where does one go about getting this stuff? I normally go to the local IGA only and so I would think that the cost would be prohibitive. Are they all frozen when you buy it ? do you feed it frozen?

 

Very cute.

I have a dumb question: no cholesterol worries? I know if a human eats too many eggs regularly, they'll get cholesterol problems later on in life...

 

This phrase just reminded me of something: my dog Bishop found a rabbit the other day and I'm pretty sure he was about to kill it b/c I heard it 'scream' but I made him leave it. It hopped away so I think it was ok.

Let him hunt next time??

 

Vets will almost always tell you bones are dangerous. COOKED bones ARE dangerous. Raw bones are fine. Dogs are different than people in the way they eat. We chew our food to break it down and start the digestive process. Dogs do not have the enzymes in their saliva that people do (amylase) so their chewing is purely mechanical to make it small enough to go down. Therefore, dogs chew things just enough so that it fits down their throat rather than grinding it to a pulp like humans. As a rule, if you give your dog a slab of bone-in meat that is bigger than his head, he will chew it up just fine. Small things like chicken wings and necks are too small to be feeding anyway.

Yes, and also the salt content. They don't get that much - I'm careful with it.

Groceries stores can be expensive. I find good buys at Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market, like the 37 cents per pound chicken leg quarters. I also look for meat on sale because it is near the expiration date - dogs don't care about that. If it's a really good price, I stock up on it. I keep their food in a spare freezer downstairs. Everything is put in meal-sized zip-lock bags. I take out enough food for a couple days and thaw it in the refrigerator. I feed it straight out of the fridge, or if it's not done thawing I throw it in some warm water for a while. Sometimes I leave it out on the counter for half a day or so if I forgot to take it out of the freezer. If I am short on time, I give it to them partially thawed. Some people feed frozen, but I think warmer food is nicer for their tummies, although that may be my human bias. Then again, a fresh kill is very warm.

It is MUCH cheaper if you can find a raw food co-op or other suppliers of meat. Many butchers will give you stuff humans don't want. I buy some things from local farmers and they give me "leftovers" for free - sheep heart, deer heart and legs (this was a hunter), etc. I got the name of a local butcher who does all the hunters' stuff and I am going to call him and see if I can get a deal on buying things in bulk, like organ meats and necks and things like that. If you are resourceful, you can feed raw very economically. The Yahoo "rawfeeding" list and "carnivore feed suppliers" list are good places to find out how to do this.

That's a myth. A great book on human nutrition is "Eat, Drink and Be Healthy: The Harvard Medical School Guide to Healthy Eating," by Walter C. Willett, M.D. It's one of the only food studies based on real data rather than assumptions. He writes:

There's more, but I'm too lazy to type it. Also, I only feed 2-3 eggs a week, so it's not like it's their whole diet.

I don't encourage my dogs to hunt because I have cats that I would rather not be thought of as food. However, if my dog did kill a rabbit I would probably let her eat it. On the other hand, you never know how healthy a "city rabbit" is. You can go in circles with these things. The best and most nutrients are found in naturally raised, organic plants and animals free from pesticides and antibiotics, etc. For instance, if you could feed your dog meat from grass-fed cattle and other animals, they would get all the omega-3's they need from their diet. But because for most of us it is prohibitively expensive to obtain these meats, we do the best we can and supplement if necessary. The only supplement I give is wild fish oil gelcaps, and in mosquito season I give garlic tablets to ward away ticks and mosquitos since I don't use heartworm preventive anymore or any kind of Frontline, etc.

Feeding raw food will NOT make your dog aggressive or any more likely to hunt and kill animals. My dogs do not associate their lump of raw meat with a living animal. And I know people with hunting dogs whose dogs regularly eat things like quail for dinner, yet will retrieve a bird when hunting and not consider it food. If your bird dog is eating the bird it is supposed to be bringing back it is a function of its training and not its diet.

One final note. Many people are so worried about feeding their dogs this way because they are afraid the dog won't get everything they need. They are used to looking at a bag of kibble as "complete nutrition." Well, how do we feed our kids?? Do we feed them exact ratios of nutrients in just the right amounts for optimal nutrition? Do we even know what those nutrients are and how much we need of them? I find it is significant that since we started to feed dogs "scientifically" they have become LESS healthy and now get all the same diseases that humans do - cancer, diabetes, kidney, thyroid, heart disease, etc. Do you think it is better to get your nutrition from a vitamin-fortified cereal or from fresh fruits, vegetables, and meats? It works the same for your dog.

 

Quote:
J"imiya, I recently read be careful giving dogs and cats canned fish, depending how often you feed them because of the mercury content


Yes, and also the salt content. They don't get that much - I'm careful with it.
"

I know you kknew that

I love Dr Willet, I have only read read excerpts but love his philosphy


as usual great info, now if I can just make the plunge and make it myself at .37 a pund that is great. I am paying almost 1.75 a # but that has everything in it

 

Well only the leg quarters are 37 cents a pound. It evens out with the more expensive stuff. I try to average out at about a dollar a pound, but I'm sure I go over. I could do much better if I would get off my lazy butt and call that butcher guy.