citronella collar and timing

Can a citronella collar be used successfully to curb aggression? A lady at the park had a remote one, where she presses a button to make it spray. There is also a button for an audible tone, so you send the tone and then the spray. The dog learns that the tone precedes the spray, so they leave off the behavior at the tone after the first couple of times. She was using it to stop her dog from charging up to other dogs at the park and barking hysterically at them. It worked.

Do you think I should give this a try with Nala and her random attacks on Bonnie? I know three years ago when I read up on cat chasing, they were saying you have to be really careful with timing so the dog doesn't believe the "bad thing" is coming from the cat and therefore takes it out on the cat. But I don't recall what the correct timing is!

I can usually tell when Nala is about to go off, now. She stares and then will start moving toward Bonnie while picking up speed. If I use the spray collar right as she starts moving, do you think it would work? It also depends on if it is a big enough deterrent for her, which I won't know until I try.

 

I have never actually used the citronella sprays (I use Bitter Apple but I have full control of it...meaning its in my hand when I use it not on the dog) I do know quite a few people that have used it, mostly for barking, Id say that most of them has said it works well but theres been a few that have said it seemed to really irritate the dog, made the dog 'antsy'.

As far as the idea though of the timing, I would say that would be the key, I use something called DogStopper which goes a bit further than any spray type deterrants, its actually an imprinting tool...again though its all in the timing, you have to 'read' the dog to get the time right so your breaking the thought process....meaning, like you said with Bonnie, you know by her actions, that look etc that shes going to go...with Dogstopper though while it can be a little harsh initially (you dont make any contact with the dog) the idea is to use it as a positive....once the intial 'session' is done the dog will then respond instantly when he/she hears it....and comes to you, tail wagging, not stressed out or ticked off that its just had something sprayed in its face.

My personal opinion of these sprays is there used because its nasty stuff that 'breaks or interupts the thought process' which is fine....but the thing is, once its been sprayed at the dogs face....it stays on the dogs face, so its like the dog is still receiving the 'negative'. This is why Ive never used them.

Ive had people bring up the fact that I use bitter apple though which is fair enough but with that I use it on 'items' that a dog might be chewing on, Ill spray it on my hands if theyre play biters, nippers and if theyre really adamant about biting then they might get a squirt in the mouth....it usually only takes a couple of squirts for even the most determined dogs.

Just my opinion.

 

Dogstopper just doesn't seem like much of a deterrent, but maybe it is? I should look at it again.

 

Jamiya:I would think the right timing would be the second she begins thinking about it...probably just as she begins to stare. If you can find an interrupter, preferably one that doesn't appear to be coming from you but from the environment, I think you'll have a good shot.


DeLaUK: Is the citronella actually intended to spray the dogs face though? I thought it was angled to spray just past the nose, not directly in/on the face. Maybe it depends on the position of the dogs head? I've never used one or seen one used except in ads, I'm just curious.
This is one of the ads I've seen that makes it appear to spray past the nose rather than in the face:



Also, can you give more details on the Dogstopper? I think I remember you posting a website about it a while back but I still wasn't really clear on what exactly it does.[/img]

 

Heres the link for DogStopper.

http://poochschool.com/shopping.htm

Its based on the old shaker can/throw chain idea (I used to do that years ago) but there is a method that has been devised to accompany it....its the method that makes the difference, its a serious imprinting tool. It comes with a DVD and its recommended that you watch that a couple of times, even practice (while the dog is out) your technique a few times, it needs to be done right the first time....you have to keep in mind the level of your voice and actions though depending on the dogs personality, meaning for a timid dog then you wont need to be as loud with it but it goes through that on the DVD.
My Akita mix, like I said she was extrememley dog aggressive, when I took her out there were dogs on either side of the fence, she would go at the dogs at the fence and try to fight with them (this is just one example), I used DogStopper on her and from day one (the day after Id done the session with her and the next time I let her out in this area) she ran at the fence to go for the Boxer again, I gave it a shake and she instantly turned around and came back....another time she went after a wild rabbit, she was gone so fast and as she was further away I didnt think it would work, wasnt sure if she would actually hear it, I gave it a shake, she didnt even slow her pace down, just did a u-turn and ran right back to me, tail waggin, ears up, that happy goofy look on her face.
They are a bit nervous when its used initially, like I said, it seems a little harsh to some people, I know of people that cant do the intial session but they will have someone else do it because theyve seen the results from its use... and you do have to spend some time (usually a day or so at most) reassuring the dog, building its confidence up a little because you want to be able to walk along the street with this in your pocket, its going to rattle a little and the dogs will know the difference between it rattling in your pocket and when you actually use it...again though all that is on the DVD.

I see what your saying with the citronella spray and like I said I dont use them, never have done, I know that the dogs do get it on their faces though, maybe thats an error on how its placed, maybe the movement in general from the dog can re-position it. I would just rather have control of any negative device that is going to be used on a dog.....with dog stopper another way I found it worked really well was with my Rott Babe, hated cats but due to the long hours I worked and the fact that she was diabetic (and partly for security reasons when I worked nights ) I would take her to work with me, we would have feline patients in cages and obviously its important that theyre not stressed out any more than they already are by being there....if Babe was around I would put a DogStopper near the cats cage, she would stay away....on the off chance that she knocked it or something....not a big deal, she came straight to me, not nervous or anything though....like I said its an imprinting tool so as long as you follow instructions from the DVD the idea is to get an automatic response where the dog doesnt actually need to think about what to do it just does it....comes back to you.

 

if nalas aggression is true aggression then i dont think its a good idea. by that i mean if nala is just being silly, stalking bonnie for fun, has no intention of hurting her but its taken the wrong way and things escalate, then thats not true aggression and it would work [like the dog at the park]. but if it is aggression, i worry that if you try to correct her for it using something negative, instead of thinking that fighting is bad, she will think that its the warning signs she use are bad [staring, running]. if she stops giving warning signs, how are you going to know when to stop a fight from happening?

 

DeLaUK - Could you give me a little more detail as to why this can is so scary?
I went to the link and read about the product but there isn't much detail as to how it exactly works.

I have found the shaker can very, very effective for certain behaviors. As a matter of fact - I have an old peanut butter jar with pennies on the the bottom step of the stairs that go to my second floor! I don't want my pup to go upstairs unless he is invited - and since the jar can make a terrible, horrible noise (sometimes!) he is afraid to go near it - so he isn't going upstairs! Wallah!! Good Puppy!

 

The 'scary' part is in the initial session with a day or so of being unsure of it, after that its actually a positive and not a negative when you use it, to leave it out, as I said with the cats in a cage, sure its a deterrent, the dog doesnt want to move it so it stays away so there is a slightly different repsonse between that and as I described with my Akita. The point is though that the dog is relaxed and can sit or lay right next to the dogstopper....but he/she wont touch it. You could leave one out in the middle of the floor and the dog will quite happily walk around it without fear of it, the dog knows that by walking around it its not moving.

I cant really expand on the method itself as the guy who devised it is a very good friend.....and hes a business man, (I worked for him and with him in CA and my training certification is from his company) its something that hes selling though, right now only through the website although they used to be available at Petsmart, they should going out on sale in a few other places soon, it took him a while to get the original video onto DVD.

Its used in his training programme (and other trainers in both US and Ireland and I believe England are using it), its sold in Europe although not recently so much, marketing reasons, Ive used it with every dog Ive trained over the the last 10 years both with his company or by myself and I can honestly say that I havent ever heard a complaint about it, only praise. Like I said its a major imprinting tool, not so much a 'deterrent', thats why its so successful and why its not something that I would want to describe in a website anyway, you have to watch the DVD so that you do it right the first time, theres no room for trial and error, you dont want to underdo it nor overdo it.....its not difficult you just need to know how to use it correctly.

 

Sorry DeLaUK -- I don't mean to be dense - but I still don't get it!
Is this device a type of can with something inside? You said that it won't move on its own? Is it initially tossed at the dog? Or rattled to give the dog a good initial scare?

 

Thanks for explaining Delauk. Sounds interesting.

 

The trainer came over last night to help me. He was able to "interrupt the cycle" and then keep Nala's attention. He showed me things to do, and suggested that I work trigger situations over and over again while I can control both dogs - like at first with them on leash, and then just with little leash tabs, and then collars only, etc. He ha dboth dogs lying facing each other about a foot apart with treats lined up in between them and they were ignoring both the treats and each other! I could do it with the trainer there, but by myself is different. I am to give him an update in a few days and he'll come back if I need him.

It sounds like what he is doing is what the Dogstopper does, although he didn't use a shaker can. But it's the same process - use something to break the cycle and get the dog's attention. I'm not clear on how the Dogstopper ends up being a positive thing. I may order one, but for now I am going to try it on my own.

I am a little nervous because I agreed to take a foster this weekend and it would be nice to have more time with just my two to get things under control, but the trainer said a foster would be fine and to call him if I have trouble. He didn't even charge me, except for gas. He volunteers a LOT of time at the shelter training dogs, and sees this sort of thing as an extension. What a great guy!

 

Thats great, keep us posted on how you progress. Good luck.