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Crossbreeds good or bad and why?

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by thedogguy, Feb 19, 2005.

  1. thedogguy

    thedogguy New Member

    Long time reader/observer, first time post,

    this techincally isn't directed toward pit bull owners/breeders, or the breed directly...more so, most working dogs in general.....

    I was doing research on a specific bred kind of Doberman....they call it the "Warlock" doberman.It all goes back to a specific dog back in the 60's...so forth and so forth. Basically they are "Over-sized",,,or as I like to say, "Bigger than normal Doberman Pinchers" ranging from 90-120 pounds and much taller than the breed standard. I noticed to on multiple boards that I read regularly(esp this one), there is the same borderline debate going on.There seems to be more Breeders(assumption) on this board, so I thought I would start posting this question first on this board.

    The argument with these "Warlock" Dobermans, was that 1."They dont exist" and of course 2."Sure they do". Infact if you do a google search or Yahoo search on "warlock dobermans" , most of the first search results will look something like "Warlock Dobermans? Doberman FAQ". Most would start off by saying they infact do not exist. While yet others , they DO. upon further investigation, it's just that certain breeders/breeder types dont like to recognize these Hybrid dogs as "Dobermans". Warlock Dobermans for a fact DO exist, one of my best buddies has one. and they are INFACT oversized Dobermans. Of course down the line though they had to have been cross bred with a bigger dog (Dane i believe), but they do exist, and they ARE Dobermans, not Standard ones but ones none the less. SO why do some dispute the Warlock Doberman crossbreed?

    The same thing i've noticed is with the APBT breed. Theres a group that tries to .....reinforce the 'standard' of the breed, and in there own way try to discredit any and everything else. But does the fact that a dog is crossbred for it to serve a purpose make it less of a Doberman/Pit Bull/Rott/etc??

    Another part of that dispute with the Warlock dobermans is that they aren't good dogs because they are bigger and thus slower and aren't as agile as the Doberman standard....obviously these people havn't played with one. Sure a v10(standard) might be faster than a v8(warlock), but a v8 still smokes a four cylinder(human) anyday.

    I dont know, i guess my question is, why is it that the breeder types try to discredit cross breeds? , I mean obviously the two different types of breeders have different goals, one to preserve the original 'standard', the other to provide a dog to serve the purpose of his/her consumer, wether it be a bigger/larger Doberman/Rott/Pit/and so on.

    What makes the second breeder so bad?

    Dog Man 2005
  2. Shineillusion

    Shineillusion New Member

    Well, first let's start with the Doberman. The breed was developed by one man, who had a definate vision and goal in what he wanted to produce. His vision included a specific type of animal, a specific function, and a specific size. The breed standard was written to preserve the vision of the original developer of the Doberman breed. Those individuals who have undertaken the breeding of Dobermans did so, for the most part, to preserve and produce animals that represent the standard, improve the bloodstock, and perpetuate the ideal Doberman.

    Bigger is not always better. Especially if breeding for bigger means sacrificing soundness, temperment or breed type. I'm not saying that the "Warlock" Dobermans aren't sound in body or temperment, maybe yes, maybe no. But they most certainly lack breed type, as type includes size, along with the other characteristics that make a dog a Doberman. Oversized dogs in any breed are typically coarser than dogs of a correct size. Dobermans should be an elegant and refined dog in appearance.

    When people start altering a breed's type to suit their own taste, they often do so without paying close attention to problems that may result when one breeds for one characteristic at the expense of the whole dog. Breeding for exaggerations of size often produces skeletal anomalies, genetic defects, and a general lack of hardiness because too much emphasis is placed on size, rather than the total dog. This is true whether one is breeding a giant representation of the breed, or a tiny toy.

    Breeders of the historic Dobermans are breeding because they have a passion for the breed. They value the refinement and elegance of the breed, and they see them as already perfect. The breed doesn't need improvement, other than to breed as closely as possible to the standard. They aren't breeding MinPins, German Pinscers or Great Danes. They're breeding Dobermans.

    Another problem with giant breeds is they typically have shorter lifespans, more orthopedic problems, more heart/lung problems and are generally less hardy than their smaller counterparts. A ten year old Warlock Doberman is physiologically older than a ten year old Doberman of correct size.

    Now, when it comes to crossbreeding; If one thinks they can create an improvement in function by crossing two or more breeds for a specific purpose, then need to do so with a carefully thought out vision of what they wish to produce. You can't just go about it willy-nilly and expect to have any measure of success.

    Read the history of the Cesky terrier to see a perfect example of a man who had a vision and set out to produce a dog that fit that vision.

    You question if a dog is crossbred to serve a purpose makes it less of a Doberman, Pit or Rott. Of course it does. If it's not a purebred Doberman, Pit or Rott, it's a mixed breed. That doesn't mean it's not a good dog, or that it's less able ot fulfill it's function. But it's a mixed breed dog, just the same.

    There are many, many so-called breeders of mixed breed dogs who are doing it for one purpose only. Money. They appeal to a certain segment of the population, and they get away with charging outrageous sums of money for what usually amounts to substandard dogs. They aren't health testing. They aren't breeding outstanding bloodstock. They aren't doing anything but putting two dogs together and charging premium prices of less than premium animals.

    It never ceases to amaze me how much money some people spend to buy a mixed breed dog, but aren't willing to pay half that amount for a well bred, purebred dog from top bloodstock.

    Ripley said it best: "There's a sucker born every minute".
  3. goob

    goob New Member

    There's nothing wrong with crossbreeds. There is something wrong with crossbreeding and passing the crossbred dogs off as of purebred dogs of one of their component breeds. The point of purebred dogs is that the breed true, and have certain traits, physical and mental, that can generally be expected of their breed. When you toss something else into the mix, you lose that "type", which in effect, takes away the purpose of having a purebred dog.

    If people want to mix mastiff into their pit bulls, fine. But don't call them pit bulls, because they're not (refer back to above, about losing type). They're pit bull mastiff mixes. If you don't want to call them that, give them their own name, but don't try to pass them off as something they're not. If people want to breed 300 lb dobie looking dogs, that's fine, but why call them something they're not.

    Likewise, I don't understand why people cannot find what they want in pre-existing dogs and breeds. Since you like car analogies, here's one for you... you could probably take a sports car, and with a lot of work and money, turn it into a armored vehicle or all terrain vehicle. Granted, you wouldn't be able to have the fasted car anymore, since you'd comromise that for either better handling or better protection. And why waste so much time and money to turn fix something not suited for those jobs when you could just as easily get something from the start that could do them. The same holds true in the purebred/crossbred issue... yeah, people can go to all the trouble of taking one breed and "turning it into" what they want (something entirely different), but it would be much easier to just get something that suits their needs from the beginning. I don't know why they don't, maybe just trading on the name and reputation.
  4. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    I have to agree with goob. Breed what ever you want, people are going to do it anyway. Buy when the APBT was created it wasnt under any allusions about it still being a bull terrier or stafford bull terrier or an english bull dog or white english terrier and so on. The people who bred it said "look, we have developed a dog that will reproduce with consistency based on other exsisting breeds but its not any ONE of those breeds, and it PREFORMS better because of it. Its called the American Pit BUll Terrier (not an actual historic account)" They wanted their own Identity for what they created.

    Seems to me the people breeding crosses have discredited themselves and the breeds their trying to pawn their dogs off as. If those dogs are so great then why not call them American Doberman's or whatever, hold them up to a certain distinction, and give a full account of their exsistence starting with the first one bred, by who, and why.

    TAKING YOUR CROSS BRED STUFF AND RUINING SOMEONE ELSES REGISTRY, HARD WORK, BREED AND TRADITION??? That reaks of cowardice because they are either scared or ashamed of the dog they have made. If its not either one of those then what is it? Why defend these actions?

    This statement is at war with itself, If down the line they are crossed then they are INFACT NOT Dobermans. A standard is not a mild suggestion, its a rule by which, in order to maintain a breed as a breed, all later generations are to follow. If there was something wrong with the doberman that you had to muck it up with another dog then why still call it a doberman? Or perhaps slapping on a generic and trite name in front of doberman makes everone feel like they have done something more than cross breed a dog and then hang the papers on the puppies, an irepairable injustice on the lineage of the Doberman.

    This goes for everyone doing this in any breed, Your cross may be able to pull dump trucks, fly and shoot laser beams from it eyes, but call it the "Magical flying laserbeam Pinscher" and leave everyones elses dogs alone and the way you found them because thats what we like.

    I like the way it used to be, the people crossing dogs were cowards and just tried to peddel their dogs, now they are intent on defending their actions!!?!?!?!?

    Sorry for ranting, thedogguy, you may have just been asking a simple question.
    I'll answer that with another question, Why are the cross breeders discrediting the breed? Remeber the word, look it up, and take heed, STANDARD. Welcome to the Auspet Pitbull Forum! And thanks for the action, this thing can get boring sometimes! :lol:
  5. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    Well put Goob. I like the simplicity of the statement, it cuts right down to it.

    Also very well said...
  6. thedogguy

    thedogguy New Member

    :) I think I understand now.

    I agree and i think thats the 'problem'...that there is no registered name for these bigger/more muscular dogs yet... Why do we still call them 'Dobermans' /Pit Bulls/etc?? because thats still their major characteristics. These dogs still with the exception of size have the same features/confirmation(generality) as their predicesors(sp?).And until there is a name...these dogs will still be called Dobermans/etc. Laberdoodles for instance visually/temperment/etc share characteristics between two different dogs. It LOOKS like a poodle/lab love child.

    A 'big-boned' Pit Bull ,or a Warlock Doberman...doesn't look like a Great Dane/doberman or Mastiff/Pit Bull Love child(if bred correctly)...most likely because the resulting love child was bred with another pitbull/doberman until finally they took on the look of the its original breed.(im not a breeder just logistically thinking)

    thats why us crossbreed owners call them "dobermans" or "pitbulls". When there is a name, Trust me I sure we'll all be proud to use them! I dont think it has anything to do with Shame...cause i know im sure proud of my dogs! :y_the_best:

    Yeah i agree this has been the most productive discussion i've ever had on a "heated" subject!!!
  7. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    Well if you are a "Crossbreeder" then its up to you to start the name game, stop registering Know crossbreeds as pure, and stop riding on the kudos of those dogs.
    I like "American Pinscher". "American Doberman", "American Black and Tan Pinscher", "Warlock Pinscher". But for now there are several names you can use, Mutt, Heinz 57, Crossbreed, mixed, Because that's what every dedicated, hard working purebred dog owner is calling it until someone says different.
    Ask youself, Are you interested in being know for breaking a standard or making one??
    And hey, you should love your dogs. Its the least they deserve!
  8. Shineillusion

    Shineillusion New Member

    Well, let's be honest. All of our 'purebred' dogs started out somewhere in time as cross breds. It took someone with a vision of what they wanted to produce to set an ideal of what the dogs should be. It also took many generations of carefully planned litters and culling of pups that showed undesirable characteristics from the breeding stock.

    Dachshunds, for example. Three sizes, three coat types, same basic dog, bred for hunting and earthwork. I'm sure at some time, the developers of the longhaired and wirehaired variety faced some opposition to what they were trying to do. But they had a vision and a goal; to produce a true dachshund that differed only in coat from the original smooth.

    There was probably some opposition to the three size developements too. But the goal was the same; to produce a smaller version of the breed that would be able to work in closer cover.

    The Labradoodle is a good example of a breeding ideal gone bad. The breeders of Labradoodles don't all have the same goal. For many, it's just a moneymaking opportunity. Some breeders are telling buyers they don't shed and require minimal grooming. Half of then DO shed, just like a Lab. And ALL of them require major grooming. Not only that, but breeding a Labradoodle to a Labradoodle doesn't produce a true type. It's a mixed bag of tricks. Some resemble their parents, some have short coats, some have poodle coats. There's no continuity from one generation to the next. There's no vision. And the only goal is how much you can get people to pay for a mixed breed puppy.

    So if you're crossing breeds, have a goal. Have vision. What do you want the dog to do? What is your vision of how the ideal 'whatever breed' should look? Learn about conformation and how it affects not only the workability of the dog, but his overall health and wellbeing. Knowing what work you want the dog to do, and knowing how conformation affects the ability to do that work is just the begining, but at lease it IS a begining. Form has to follow function. The standard should be set first, with provisions for correct conformation, soundness and temperment. Then breeding can become a journey on a path to perfection.
  9. thedogguy

    thedogguy New Member

    indeed MaxKelly this has to be the best thread i've read in a long time!
  10. goob

    goob New Member

    wrong thread
  11. Sara

    Sara New Member

    I skimmed the last part...but wanted to make a comment... THERE IS A NAME For CROSSBRED DOGS that were created for a purpose WITHIN the working dog community and that name is

    BANDOG... GENERALLY it's a masstiff (Neo specifically) Pit Bull cross bred for protection in most cases... ANYMORE people are taking the Pit Bull to Mastiffs to create a healtheir mastiff type with the staying power and desire of the APBT in catch dogs... AB and Mastiff crosses are used as well...and a FEW people are starting to call Whopper Pits Oklahoma Bulldogs (good name if you ask me...)

    There are Donovan's pinchers (Duch shepherd breeds crossed with Bullies and are beginning to start breeding true through several generations)...

    There are others out there with their own names... but the most common and known name for a mixed breed working dog...mixed for a purpose is a Bandog... The people NOT using this term for their mixed breed dogs are cheating and using other registries for their own purpose in making money off of breeding their dogs.
  12. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Thats contradictions, they aren't infact dobermans, they are infact a mixed breed, a Doberman is a Doberman a pure bred dog, a "warlock doberman" or pit bull/mastiff is just that a cross or mix. Yes they exist but they are not a pure Doberman or Pit. No matter how you cut it hanging papers is dishonest, even if the dog is pure, but especially if its a cross.

    I don't know if agree, what do you mean bred correctly? A lot of the pit/mastiff crosses look like just that, it might not be their goal to make it look like a pure pit, they don't really care if it looks like one or not or that it isn't one, they just want to use the name. The dogs have mastiff faces, drool, droop and have big bone and huge feet, Hip Dysplsia becomes more common, the dogs life shorter life spans because they are larger and that puts more strain on their heart.

    I agree and that is the proper way to start a new breed, and be responsible about it. However when a new breed was started, like the Labradoodle the breeders didnt call them Labs or Poodles and they didn't register them as purebred Poodles and try to pass them off as that. Most breeds of dogs do come from crossing and mixing, but they have thir individual breed names not the name of one of the breeds in them.
  13. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    I dont know what the latter part of that statement was supposed to mean, but I live in Oklahoma and dont know of anyone who is using that term.
    Then again I dont run in those circles.... by that I mean any of the following, Bandog folks, weight pullers, mutt makers or the like.

    We actually have some pretty good dogs around here if you know where to look, the APBT in particular.
  14. Sara

    Sara New Member

    A couple people who pull whopper pit Bulls in Colorado at least are starting to call them Oklahoma bulldogs... The Whopper line originated in Oklahoma with FIRST John Blackwell breeding the AB x DDB cross and sending one to Eddington and one to Mark Landers in Colorado... Eddington's dog is the Iwannabe awhopper I bet I spelled that all wrong YET AGAIN...my memory seems to be failing and I'm not even thirty yet...

    John Blackwell is also in OK so...the name is suiting...and MIGHT catch on... Whopper Pits are more common in Weight pulling... Eddington is also known for the Wilhe Makit line and they are small correct pure bred ADBA pits...and should be... Whopper pits are ADBA too...but it's well known that they are not purebred...

    Does that help any?
  15. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    Helps much, thanks!
  16. thedogguy

    thedogguy New Member

    Yeah I'm considering breeding perhaps. I'm still in my research stage. Besides breed study, im looking into the different Kennel Clubs, the registration process..." and all that Jazz ...". I'm slowly tranforming a nice sized section of my large backyard into a kennel. But I'm taking it slow. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. I'm reasearching other breeds as well like Mastiff and Boxer(i've ran across a couple of Pit Boxer mixes...great mix). Dunno..again..still reasearching. I dont see the point in breeding a dog that would not be a good dog... SPEAKING OF WHICH!!!!

    I was reading the paper and was glancing over the Classifieds and i saw the silliest/stupidest thing.... it was called...

    a PITDOODLE!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :x

    Who in there right mind breeded a poodle with a APBT! that doesn't even make sense! :x
  17. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    There are a lot of the big Bandog mutts in OK and a lot of the weight pull breeders and they are going with a more generic name (Oklahoma Bulldog) then a breed specific name.
  18. Sara

    Sara New Member

    TONS of research goes into breeding and picking the right breed to do it with too... To do it responsibly is really tough... I've researched breeding now for about 4 years... Three of those spent researching the breed I am going to breed (Boerboel) and only now do I feel confident I'm ready for my first litter...

    Make sure you do it all responsibly with health tests etc...

    Breeding mixed breeds IMO should be left to the old hats at breeding who feel they need a change for the better in working ability and a goal in mind as well as a LOT of knowledge on bloodlines and backgrounds of each breed being used.
  19. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    :m39: :lol: :lol: :lol:
    thats even better than a shnoodle :lol:
  20. thedogguy

    thedogguy New Member

    hmm not to fimiliar with boerboel...will have to look those up.

    I like Mastiffs and Rottwielers (or as one post said..."rockwilers" ahhaa :lol: ) and Pit Bulls. Dunno i Have a fascination with Gentle Giants..

    Pitdoodle :

    at this rate there'll be TeaCup Pitbulls (chihuahua/pit mix) !...jeez :roll:

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