dogs and "that time of the month"

We have a french mastiff and she is 8 months old. She just started her first period. I was wondering if that is normal for her to start that young? Also how long will it last and how often will she be getting it? I know some dogs only get it a few time a year so I am hoping that will be the case with her. Thanks for the info!

 

I think 6 - 8 months is the average age for first heat, it usually lasts around 3wks and generally occurs about twice a year but this can also vary depending on the individual dog. If you have no plans to breed her this would be a good age to have her spayed.

 

Well according to the contract with the breeder we got her from we have to breed her at least once and she gets to pick the male and gets the frist litter since she gave us a little discount. So we can't have her spayed yet. Thanks for the info though!!

 

So the breeder get's the whole litter? That is such crap!

 

Gina, my neighbor is doing the same thing. They got a big discount, and the agreement was the breeder got the puppies. I dont think that is either, but its sounds like its done mroe than we think


honeybear

 

Hi i am sorry but the breeder can not ask for the full litter and you as the owner of the dog do not have to breed from her at all.

THis breeder and any other breeder that states this in there agreement is only out for money.
I breed german shepherds and it states that any female bred from i have to be informed before the mating and i want to know the sire which is going to be used and is full pedigree background and all information on any genetic problems or anything like that in the sire's bloodline.

If you want to spay your pup then you have the right to do so as no breeder has the rights to ask for the full litter.
Yes the pick of the litter if you get a breeders discount but not the whole litter.

I was wondering could you scan the agreement and send me a copy so i can read through it please this is if you dont mind.

As this is total rubbish what this breeder is saying to you.
What is the establishment like do you know how many males and females this breeder has and how many litters they have a year.

A true breeder will be able to show you this as all pedigree litters must be registered before the breeder can even state anything about breeding from the pups.

Also this is your pups first heat and she should be allowed to have 3heat cycles before breeding anyway so she should be 2year old before its done.

Please have your pup spayed this breeder is after money and not the welfare of the litters or the females involved

mike

 

I think the reason she said the full litter is because with these types of dogs the first littler is almost always just one pup. I have to disagree that she is just out for money. She has been breeding and showing these types of dogs for over twenty years. She is very very pickie as to who she sells these dogs to. She even turned down a offer for more money because she did not feel the pup would get a good home. So she sold her to us after many visit to her and by her to our home. I HIGHLY doubt she did all that to sell us this pup at a discount to "make money" off of one pup.

"THis breeder and any other breeder that states this in there agreement is only out for money. "

Statements like this really should not be made unless you know for a fact that it is true and well you just can't say that about this breeder.


"As this is total rubbish what this breeder is saying to you.
What is the establishment like do you know how many males and females this breeder has and how many litters they have a year."

She has many males and females and she has the blood lines of all her dogs. She has be handling these types for over twenty years. In shows and breeding. She has about one littler a year from only one female per year. She never has more then one female pg and she never breeds the same female year after year.

"A true breeder will be able to show you this as all pedigree litters must be registered before the breeder can even state anything about breeding from the pups. "

She has giving us all our puppy's blood line and she is reg. with several groups in this country and abroad.

"Also this is your pups first heat and she should be allowed to have 3heat cycles before breeding anyway so she should be 2year old before its done. "


She has told us she would not breed her until she was at least 2 but she would like to wait until she was 3 or 4 because pg is very hard on these dogs and she would like the dogs to be strong with she begins breeding.


"Please have your pup spayed this breeder is after money and not the welfare of the litters or the females involved "


Again you have no right to say something like when you don't really know. To tell someone to break a legal contract (which this is as I had it looked over by a lawyer before I signed anything) is just not very responsible of you at all. People can get into a lot of trouble by breaking a legal contract and it is not right for you to tell someone to do just that.

 

I don't breed puppie, so I can't comment. Just a question, though. Anyone can answer if they breed puppies, but what happens if things don't go as planned with the first litter. God forbid they should die or have a genetic defect? Is the contract void? Do you have to promise the second litter? What happens to the puppy/puppies that should have a genetic disorder? Does she take responsibility for it or is it up to you?

It seem really easy to draw contracts and hope everything turns out for the best, but that's not always the case. Is it in the contract to make provisions for sick puppies?

I'm just curious.

 

Hi a female gives birth to a litter with genetic defects, or any other health issue then there must be a problem with either the sire or dam's bloodline, But if both where checked out thoroughly by a vet before breeding and the whole bloodline checked this should not happen.

If the females produce a litter with defects or the puppies die during birth or never get past 2days then this female should not be bred from again.
Problems do happen with litters that no-one has any control over.

If Someone breeds from any animal with a history of defects such as cleft palate, Hip dysplasia, Fading puppy syndrome and many other defects and there litters go on to do the same then the contract becomes void.
All bloodlines and genetic defects have to be reported well here in the uk they do to the kennel club and they wont register a litter with these problems.

I show all my dogs vet checks, vaccination cards, worming cards, New owners even get to see my the bloodline.


kellimc123 Sorry but something sounds a miss as no breeder asks for the full litter and to say that these dogs usually only have 1pup in the first litter is jumping the gun abit as all females dogs are very different just because this is what happens generally does not mean this will be the case for your female.

But i am sorry its a case of your going to put your female through this your going to raise this litter make sure they are well cared for and then hand them all over to this breeder sorry but like i say something aint right.

Another thing whats 20years of breeding and showing got to do with anything.
There is alot of people out there that have breeding years and have loads of dams and sires and dont know the first thing about the breed the gentics or breeding in gerenral most of them just stick a male and female together and hope for the best.

What is this breeder going to do if your female never concieves?
What is this breeder going to do if your female keeps aborting her litter?
Whats the breeder going to do if she kills her litter?
Whats the breeder going to do if your female dies during the pregnancy or during whelping?
Whats this breeder going to do if your female gives birth to a litter later to find they all have genetic problems which would ruin her line if the females where bred from?

What you and this breeder have to realise is most dams are dominant and never fall pregnant yes this will have a phantom pregnancy but never have a litter.
Your saying she was saying the whole litter because they usually only have one in the first litter so if your female lets say has 10 then you have to hand them all over????

What a load of C**P

My opinion so no need to get on your high horse.
This breeder is going to let you breed this female when you have no knowledge at all.
If this breeder is as good as you say why come here for advice on heat cycle's and the age they are when they first have there heat.

Are you aware that even though your little girl is 8months old if she is left unattended outside and a male dog gets to her she may still fall pregnant.
If this ever happend god forbid would you abort this litter or allow the poor girl to go ahead and have the litter as this would be her first even though it risks her health and life????

So in my opinion and thats all it is this breeder cant be all that if you have had to come on here and ask for advice about a females cycle why not go straight to her as you will be in contact with her since you are going to breed from this dog.

With every heat cycle and litter a female has the chances of ovarian cancer, mammary tumours rises.

mike

 

I just have a few comments and questions too, some have already been mentioned, but I want to remention them. What happens when a random dog gets her pregnant? or she gets pregnant by another mastiff and you think ok thats done and then another random dog get up on it too? What happens if she does meet up with a mastiff now and gets pregnant at 8 months, hey why not do that give her the one week baby, put your dog in danger, but that way you have it out of the way, in case you also want to breed her, of course for the betterment of the breed, or you could have the preganancy out of the way and get her desexed. I had redneck friends with 20 hunting type dogs(I can'T remember what type) and they had been showing in their family forever, and always winning awards on how good their dogs were, but that didn'T mean that they knew anything about it. If she isn'T in it for the $$ then why does she want a puppy back at all? Why did she sell it at all? why not give it away for free? What was the money for? Dogs make puppies for free, so why pay, if it isn'T about the $$, oh yea maybe that was to reimburse for the shots and all that crap and the food of the mother for the past year. And what do you mena a discount, was it in the 1/2 price bin because you swear away the first litter? What happens if your dog is hit by a bus and never produces a litter who is responsible then? Does this lady live near you? Does she use your vet? Can you just say, I don'T know she never comes in heat (because really she is desexed).
Ok you said she would bereed her, what if you find a better guy out their? I would say if you went somewhere else the chances of inbreeding would be lower. I don'T understand why you signed this contract when you don'T know much about dogs in the first place. Why do you have this dog? What is the actual reasoning behind going to this lady and no one else? Never trust someone who makes you sign a legal contract.
Why did she decide on picking you and not the other people? Becuase I feel you don'T know much about dogs and if I were a breeder, especially one who wanted the puppies back I would make sure that person is knows a wealth of knowledge on breeding. Something else I just thought about is that you say she only breeds one of her dogs and only has one preg at a time, that is because she doesn'T have to, because everyone else is doing the breeding work for her! I really you come back again and learn about breeding dogs before you just do it.

 

Well congrats on your new pup (i LOVE French Mastiff's)
whats her name?

Although she may be a good breeder it does sound like in the long run you are worst off let me explain my views.

say you payed the dicount price of $1000 (just a guess it doesnt have to be accurate).
you pay for the vet examination test to make sure she is fit to breed final price $250
She choses the male you pay the stud fee of lets say $300 (i'm English so i'm guessing the dollor money here).
you pay for the check ups through out the pregnacy $200
you pay for all the exta's such as whelping box, etc $150
you worm/vaccinate etc all the pups (may 2/3/4 pups) untill ready to live mum $250
calculate it all up and you paid $2150 for may 2/3/4 pups.
Then you give her 2/3/4 pups that you could sell for may $1500 each
in the end she gets 2/3/4 pups worth $1500 each
plus the $1000 that you paid for the dicount bitch
no fee's (you allready paid them)
she gets in totall for one bitch and 2/3/4 pups $5500 (based on 3 pups)

WOW that breeders will be rich if she can do that to each costumer
My prices are all rough guess and not including complications etc.

Please dont say but she is paying for all the vet checks/stud fees worming the pups etc becuase she may as well of keep the bitch herself to breed etc.

My thoughts only NOT a critasism

Ps good luck with what ever you desided YOUR dog YOUR chose
Ky

 

Well said lil69 and rio_and_me.
So i am not going mad, And what i have been saying is right there is something not right about this discount pup situation.

I am glad there is other people out there with the same views on this matter.

In the long run its the breeder who is gonna come out on top everytime and its the pup thats is going to suffer in the long run, Because of the trauma of mating and then missing or giving birth to a still born or even having the puppies for a couple of days and then them die 1 by 1.

As for the breeder picking the sire who is to say it is not the pups actual father that she uses and just says she picked it out and you end up paying someone from her family pretending to be the owner of this male dog.

Risky if you ask me.

But at the end of the day there is always a way out of a contract and if you had it looked over by anyone in the legal profession they would have told you that especially if you dont want to breed this pup.

Go back to the breeder tell her you dont want to risk your little girls health and are willing to pay the rest of the money that you would have paid for the dog originally and get another contract drawn up.

But sounds like your wanting to breed this dog anyway.

But at the end of the day your pup your choice.
Lets just hope nothing goes wrong.

mike

 

"What is this breeder going to do if your female never concieves?"

The breeder gives her 3 times to get pg if she does not with those three times then the contract is filled and any litter after that (if we choose) is our to keep or sell.

"What is this breeder going to do if your female keeps aborting her litter?"

It says in the contract if she aborts the first pg then the contract is filled and any other litter is ours.


"Whats the breeder going to do if she kills her litter?"

Same statement.


"Whats the breeder going to do if your female dies during the pregnancy or during whelping?"

If our pup dies during the pg or whelping then we have a choice of either a refund of 50% of our money or a new pup from her next litter.


"Whats this breeder going to do if your female gives birth to a litter later to find they all have genetic problems which would ruin her line if the females where bred from? "

see your answer about problems with genetics

"What you and this breeder have to realise is most dams are dominant and never fall pregnant yes this will have a phantom pregnancy but never have a litter.
Your saying she was saying the whole litter because they usually only have one in the first litter so if your female lets say has 10 then you have to hand them all over???? "

This type of dog has never giving birth to 10 pup on their first litter so that point is nothing we have to look at. Every book and Vet I have spoke to have said that almost always this type of dog only gives birth to one pup the first time at the most 2.





"If this breeder is as good as you say why come here for advice on heat cycle's and the age they are when they first have there heat."

Sorry for asking for advice here but I thought that was what this forum was for? Am I wrong? I did try to call the breeder but she is out of town right now and I just thought I could come here for some answers to a few questions. Sorry for the bother but I "thought" that was one of the reason for this forum. I wont bother you again with my questions if this is how you want to act.

"Are you aware that even though your little girl is 8months old if she is left unattended outside and a male dog gets to her she may still fall pregnant.
If this ever happend god forbid would you abort this litter or allow the poor girl to go ahead and have the litter as this would be her first even though it risks her health and life????"


Hmmm I NEVER NEVER NEVER leave her outside alone at all! So that would NEVER happen.

"So in my opinion and thats all it is this breeder cant be all that if you have had to come on here and ask for advice about a females cycle why not go straight to her as you will be in contact with her since you are going to breed from this dog. "

Again I am so sorry to bother you but I thought that is what this forum was for to give and share information. But with this statemenet you have set me straight on that. I wont bother you with my questions any more. God forbid a breeder go out of town and someone has a question they would like an answer to. Better not come here other wise the breeder is not "all that" in your words "what a load of C**P.

 

kelli, issues like this around here are really hot buttons, because many times people come with questions like yours and we dont know the background and then you will get rude comments. Even though I dont agree with these type of practices, It sounds like you have everything in writing and know what you are doing with keeping her out of harms way while she is in heat.

Mike, I think the breeders do it here proably because it sounds like a rare dog. My neighbors dog comes from a good hunting line and thats the brdders specialty.

Mike again, question for you
"All bloodlines and genetic defects have to be reported well here in the uk they do to the kennel club and they wont register a litter with these problems."

Jake my lab has an overbite that is genetic. The breeder told me about it, he was less money and he didnt give us papers because of this.
On his 1st check up, the vet YOU ARE GETTNG HIM FIXED arent you. I said yes. But I could very well have become a BYB and passed this along.

So my question is, I had the lines going back 15 years on the dads side, but nothing on the moms. his overbite had to come from her or does something like this come in generations.

Honeybear

 

Judgements before hearing the whole story folks...

You're alienating a good person here and you're badmouthing a person you know nothing about based on some comments made about a puppy CONTRACT.

How many of the people that bad mouthed this breeder are actual breeders?

MANY breeders, especially of rare breeds, will do odd contracts like that one. I have my male Riot from a breeder (she imported the dog but then sold him to me later) and I got him a half price (half of what she was asking which was a VERY low number in the first place) and I got him with the agreement that she could use him as stud and I would have no pick of any pups from at least the first two litters he produces from her Bitches. If he had been a female and her yard had been small (which was the case) but she still wanted to use the dog as a breeding dog...but HAD to sell because of space etc... Then I would imagine that a deal with a contract where she could have offspring from that female would be IDEAL and to have ALL the offspring would be even better... There are all kinds of things that breeders of rare breeds have to think about when they work out their breeding strategies and the betterment of the breed does come with a price... If that price is to require the buyer of an exceptional female to give up that females entire litter then so be it... THe problem with Rare breeds is that exceptional animals are hard to find and puppymills are all around specializing in these "rare" breeds...

This is a Dogo De Bordeux correct? Rare breed that is probably in danger of ruination because of quick popularity and people breeding "to make their money back" etc... People sell these dogs and breed them for $$$ because they can ask a ton for them. This is also a way for the Breeder to keep tabs on this Bitch and to keep tabs on who she's bred with, where her puppies go and how responsibly her new owners are with her... I think this contract is actually VERY beneficial for all parties involved... I wish there were more breeders out there who did this kind of thing for the rare breeds... At least to keep the pups out of questionable hands and to keep the adult safe in the hands of her new owners...

This breeder will be with this owner every step of the way through a breeding, pregnancy, and whelping... Which is better than I can say for most other breeders.

Heat cycles last about 3 weeks (bleeding) but for safe measures it's best to keep the bitch out of harms way for a week or two after bleeding stops... I have males to help me know when they are about a week away from starting and THAT's when I keep my females up in crates and inside away from males... I wait till bleeding stops and then another week and if the males are still tantalized by her I keep her up for another week and so on... Generally heats are 6 months between. Mark your calendar for safe measures.

 

Sorry to say so if your pup fails to conceive after 3 cycles then your contract is fulfilled.

Well sorry but it all sounds abit funny to me.

You are more than welcome to come here and ask your questions all i am saying is that if your planning on breeding from this pup yet you know nothing about cycles you dont know how long they last and how many they have.

All i am saying is dont breed from her tell the breeder you have changed your mind and come to some other arrangment as in the long run this breeder is going to make money out of you.

If she wanted the litter i agree with the others why didnt she just keep the dam herself.

 

Kellimc:

I don't know anything about breeders/breeding etc. that's why I don't do it.

I am only going to answer the questions you asked.

Yes, its pretty normal for her to go into first heat at 8 months. My AmStaff Harley went into first heat at 9 months. We didn't have time to sapy her because it happened 2 days after we adopted her.

It lasted about 28 days. We used little boy undies and a maxi pad for her. Just an idea, not sure what you're using.

Also, the cycle is 2 times per year.

I personally think the breeder is being responsible in saying she shouldn't be bred until 3-4 yrs. old. 2 yrs. IMO is still to young.

I hope that you stay on the forum. Its actually quite informative. Everyone here is just looking out for the dogs best interest, and I'm sure did not mean to insult you.

Good luck with everything. I would love to see pics of her if you have any!

 

Kelli, it sounds like the breeder is responsible and the two of you have everything worked out in the contract. I personally would never do this for a discount, because having a female go through heat cycles for 3-4 years and then breeding her and caring for her during the pregnancy and raising the pups is not worth a discount to ME. But obviously it is to YOU and in a way it all works out - if you have always wanted to have a litter of puppies, this seems like a great way to do it and know that the pups will be placed in good homes by the breeder. My worst fear would be that something would happen to the mommy dog, who you would be very attached to by then.

In the meantime, you should learn everything you can about heat cycles, pregnancy, breeding and birth. You have years to get ready, which is ideal. Maybe some of the breeders here can recommend a good book or two to get her started? Anyone?

Please continue to post here. You sound like a responsible dog owner and we'd love to see pictures of your new baby!


Jamiya

 

very well said Sarah and Jimiya

honeybeaer

 

Honestly the best way to learn about heat cycles and all the stuff that comes with breeding dogs is learned by another responsible breeder. I think that learning from the breeder you bought the dog from is an EXELLENT idea and asking questions on forums like this is another way to get ideas and learn things from. It's by no means an authority but message boards can help answer some questions.

I feel your contract is well written and IS for the betterment of the breed myself...

I have 3 Boerboels (South African Mastiff) so if you have "mastiff" type questions feel free! My website is below at the "www" button. My newest addition hasn't been added yet.

Good luck and learn as much as you can. Find some DDB forums to frequent so you can learn what things you'll need to screen your female for before breeding and all that. I've learned so much from the breeder I work with and from breed specific forums... There's a lot to know. Have fun researching and learning and have fun with your dog!