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Evaluate my dogs

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by spencerpits, Oct 4, 2004.

  1. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    I got some front and side pics of everyone (except Blackie). Please give your opinions on their conformation. I tried to get them as straight on as possible, but some of them are not the best. I'll try to get better ones soon.

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  2. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Okay I'm going to give it a try.

    Looks a little straight stifled. I'm not sure if he's throwing his elbow out or not? Its hard to tell from the pic. He also looks flat backed. Almost sway backed, lacking a real topline. Doesn't seem to have much of an arched neck-seems alittle short.

    BJ I couldn't tell much from BJ's pics, its the way she's standing. Maybe the elbows could be a little tighter, but that could just be her picture.

    shallow chest and elbows are loose, doesn't have much shoulder development, low pasterns, splay feet.

    In the front pic she looks too straight, under developed shoulders, narrow chest, toes are pointing outward. Her muzzle looks like its on the snippy side, something I can't put my fingure on, in the topline/arch department...lol

    Elbow looks a little out, its hard to tell much from the pic, because of the way she's standing, like she's trying to move. Badly sway backed, elbow out, shortneck/no arch, no roach (b/c of sway back) lacks rear angulation, straight stifled,
  3. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    Im glad someone said it first. Also are APBT faulted for Dewlaps? I prefer to see skin tight around the neck. Maybe the way BJ is standing but her shoulder seem extremly forward. Try a quick stack/drop stack, While the dog is standing and you have the lead take your other hand under the head and lift the dog off the ground about three inches and then set them back down. may require two hands.

    Great looking dog!

    He doesnt use his hand.

    Use a different collar/choker to stack with, consider pulling maggie from your breeding program if you have one. That topline is not something you want to see in any future puppies and im not partial to the dewlap.
    Are Gage and BJ related?
  4. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Please explain what you mean by straight stifled. I don't even know what the stifle is. On his elbow, I'm pretty sure it's because he's in the very beginning of picking that leg up. Also why his chest looks crooked. LOL. He is flat-backed - not sure if it's as bad as it looks, and his neck is short and not arched. He toes out some too.

    Not sure on her elbows - I'll definitely have to get better pics of her.

    Definitely shallow-chested, defintely loose elbows, and I think they're turned out a little too. Please explain the shoulder developement thing. And of course, slayed, flat feet and low pasterns! Oh, and a snipey muzzle (in my opinion).

    Too straight, like her legs should be under her more, or what? Again, please expain what under-developed shoulders are. Muzzle is snipey, but not as bad as Gauge (in my opinion, anyway). As for the topline - if this makes any sense, her withers seem to far back, for one thing. I might be wrong, but that's what I think.

    Not sure about her elbow(s). The way her back looks in that pic really bugged me, so I went to take a look at her to see if I had just missed that all these years. I don't know what happened, but she's not nearly like that. What probably happened is I was having a difficult time getting her to stand up; she might have been moving to start to sit - I don't remember. Just like Sammy, she does have a short neck lacking an arch to it. Again, please explin about the straight stifle. Is that the upper rear leg???

    Thanks for taking a look/giving your opinion. I'll try to get better pics of them sometime this week. I'd love to hear other's comments.
  5. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    Put a little treat in front of them while they are stacked, make them lean into it just a little.
  6. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Yes, they are faulted for dewlaps, not sure how big of a penalty it would be. Maybe someone could weigh in on that. I'm not sure if BJ's shoulder is as bad as it looks in the pic, but I think her shoulder is set too far forward. While I'm not working, I'm planning to work with them on 'show training'. I've also got to get a regular choker for each of them. Like I said in reply to True_Pits, Maggie's topline isn't anywhere near as bad as it looks in the pic. I believe she actually has a little better topline than Sammy. They're just so used to sitting whenever I want them to stay still, that it was all I could do to get them to stand up. I'm definitely going to try to get better stacked pics later this week. No, Gauge and BJ aren't related. They are both bred oddly - having game-bred dogs on the topside of their pedigree and show-bred dogs/ASTs on the bottom-side. Both have some Ruffian on the bottom side of their peds (Ruffian just keeps coming up...lol).

    Oh, and the treat idea is great. Any other hints/tips/tricks/suggestions/whatever (lol) for training them to stack/show? I know it would have been easier to train them from a young age, but the 3 adults, I bought as adults, and I've always been working too much to try to show them anyway. Any help would be appreciated.
  7. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Max Yes APBTs do have dewlaps, which means they wouldn't be faulted for having one. AST shouldn't I know, but they are diff breed, diff standard. Also don't think they should have wrinkles on their face (AST that is)? I thought it was the way BJ is standing that she looks like that.
    I'd like to see a pic of her stacked. I think she'd look really good, that one spencerpits PM'd me she looked good IMO. The way she is standing makes her looks like that. From the front she looks pretty good, head/chest ratio, legs, feet, shoulders.

    Stifle. Hard to explain, easier to show.
    The area circled in red is what I'm looking at.

    Basically he should have more shoulder, but he doesn't. The head/chest ratio should be 2:3, but since he has under developed shoulders his chest/shoulder width is almost the same as his head. He is almost straight up and down if that makes any sense. Its probably made worse visually by him throwing his elbows out.

    She actually looks a little out at the elbows. Its hard to tell on her shoulders, it would be the same as gauge. But since her legs are so straight that could be effecting how the shoulders look too. See how the other dogs go in and have shape where hers go almost straight and staigh up and down. I agree possibly on the whithers. Her shoulders might be okay, its so hard to tell with pics and her legs like that. Looking again her head/chest do seem in proportion but its really hard to tell with her not looking straight.

    see above stifle info
  8. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    I see what you mean about Sammy and Maggie's stifles. That's what I thought, but wasn't quite sure. I also see what you mean about Gauge's shoulders, as well as him and Jasmine being very straight in the front. Do you think things like the shoulders/chest will change as they mature and fill out some? I actually didn't know that APBTs were allowed dewlaps. Of course, I'd imagine that it's only accepted to a certain degree (ie: not like a Mastiff). Here's a pic of Maggie from a couple of weeks ago that shows her topline better. She is a little sway-back, but not anything like shown in her 1st pic.


    Also, is it just me, or do Sammy and Maggie both look too long for their height or too short for their length (if that makes any sense)? Thanks again for your help.
  9. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    lol I didn't even know you replied until today, I must have took so long writing and been so tired I just replied and thats it. APBTs do have dewlaps, but not like mastiffs, theres a difference between dewlaps and huge delaps/jowls. If a dog had loose skin hanging off their face/neck they would be penalized. But yours look good. Its better to have dewlaps then tight skin, where in combat the other dog has nothing to grab onto without the delaps except the neck and skin that would be tight.

    I think as they grow some of their faults might go away, as they fill out more. Sometimes when they are young, as they grow some faults will clear up. Another thing I noticed about Jasimine is her back legs appear too long and they are spread out. Maybe Gauge's are too? They might grow out of that as well. I've seen some do so.

    Maggie looks a lot different in that pic..lol Thats whats hard about judging pics, it can just be the way they are standing that adds or hides a fault. She is flat backed and a little sway backed, but nothing like in the first picture. I would still agree and pull her from my breeding program, maybe sammy too. I think they do look a little long, I thought Sammy did anyway but its hard to tell from the picture.

    I'd like to see some good ones of BJ. I think she looks very good.

    You just have to give them time to grow and see what happens. A lot of the time they're faults will be decreased. From the front BJ really looks good. If Gauge fills out some I think he'll look nice conformationally, I think he already looks nice. I also like his ear set lol. He might have a snippy muzzle but that isn't always a big issue when showing a dog, if everything else looks get its not a big deal. They all (except Gauge of course) appear to have nice feet, tight and compact.
  10. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    Wrinkles on forehead acceptable, esp. when ears are held at attention. (AST)
  11. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    ok, I was wrong..lol I wasn't sure. Maybe it is the UKC standard for APBT that wants tight skin?
  12. goob

    goob New Member

    Too add to what's already been said, and keeping in mind that A. I'm no expert, and B. pics aren't nearly as good for telling how a dog is built as compared to actually seeing them and being able to touch them to tell for yourself, that's why people go to shows :wink: ...
    Sammy- he looks to be a bit cowhocked (hocks, or ankles on the back legs turned in towards each other), which isn't too big of a fault (at least not in a mild case, it can be a sign of joint probs, and the dog tryign to shift weight), and is debated upon as to whether slight cowhocks are actually a help or hinderence to a dog. He is long in body, which is more acceptable in females than in males. Something about his hindquarters is bothering me, but I can't quite describe what it is, the best way to put it is that they don't look attached quite right for an APBT, though that could be due to his being a bit up in the rear or just from the angle of the pic. His back legs are underangulated, stifle hard to pick out. Chest not deep enough, it should drop to the elbows. Kinda easty-westy, but that's common in dogs with "bulldoggy" fronts (shoulders set far forward on body).

    BJ- Not stacked very well, and it makes her look up in the rear as well as throws off her front. I think if she was shown in a better stack, she'd probably look pretty good. She looks to be young as well, which means that her chest still has time to drop, and her muzzle will probably widen as well.

    Gauge- Well angulated in the rear, but not as well in the front, better for a dog to be underangulated in both front and rear than having dramatically different angulations of the two. Shoulders set far forward, and he elbows out (another trait common with bulldoggy fronts). Again, he's young, and his chest and head will probably fill in as he matures.

    Jasmine- Cowhocked. shoulders a bit far forward, but not as bad as some of the others. She looks to have pretty balanced angulation, and her topline is pretty good for the ADBA style dogs (I think?). Muzzle is snipy, but could fill in with time.

    Maggie- Cowhocked. Straight in front. Hard to tell how her rear angulation is because of how she's standing. She's also long, and has the same thing going with the rear looking set onto her strangelt as Sammy does. Maybe it's because they're kinda long in body, I dunno.

    Keep in mind that a dog will stand naturally however is comfortable. If you have to do some sort of super manipulation to get your dog to stack nicely, chances are it's not comfy (may even be painful) for them to stand that way.

    The other day I was watching obedience class at the training facility I take the hot dog to for tracking for a bit, and kept noticing one rotty (she's young still, maybe 9 or 10 months) sitting on her leg everytime they did halts at the heel, something common in dogs that have loose hips (dogs with good/decent hips can do it too occasionally, but if a dog does it consistently, it should be checked out). She'd right herself when corrected, then slide back over. She went back to what was most comfy for her, and since she was being corrected each time she did so, she had to have been pretty uncomfortable in a straight sit to be going back to a position she knew she'd be corrected for. I watched for 20 minutes or so, and sure enough, every sit, she either went straight to sitting on her leg, or sat straight before sliding over onto her leg. I wondered whether I should go and suggest to them that the dog might have a problem with its hips causing it to not want to sit like that, but after hearing them go on about how stubborn the dog was, I decided against it, they'd probably blow off a complete stranger coming up to tell them their stubborn dog might have another cause for its stubbornness.
  13. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Thanks Goob - this type of stuff is what I'm looking for. I understand everything you stated except about Sammy and Maggie's rears not being set on them well. Maybe you, or anyone, could explain that to me - words or pics. As for BJ - she turned 2 in May, so unfortunately, I doubt she's going to have anymore filling in to do. And as for getting them to stack - I don't think it's that they were in physically uncomfortable positions, it's just that they hear 'sit' so much that anytime their on a leash and not walking, they automatically want to sit - or they want to run around. So, I was trying to get them to stay still, but not sit, and we were having a difficult time with that. It showed me that I need to work on more than just their obedience before attempting to show. LOL. It wouldn't be good to go into the show ring and have them just plop their butts down. We've got to go to the petstore to get more food tomorrow, and I'm going to get some regular choke collars for them. They make choke collars in nylon, don't they? I'm thinking that maybe if I take them for a good long walk, or a good long play session, and then let them rest for just a little, that they might be less hyped up and a little more willing to just stand there for a minute. Just don't want to get them so tired that they plop down - I'm trying to walk a fine line here...lol.

    Anyone got any tips on show training? Like how to break them of constantly sitting when the leash is on. One thing for sure, is that the choke collar will only be used when trying to stack them - so maybe they'll associate the collar with stacking.
  14. goob

    goob New Member

    It's hard to explain what I meant because I don't know of any term for it, but his hindquarters seem a bit "set off" from his trunk, and don't flow as neatly into his body as they should. Looknig again, he also has a high tail set, which, coupled with his straight rear, could be making it look that way. I kinda reminds me of some great dane (and some mastiff)hindquarters, look at the 8th dog on this page: http://www.daneworld.com/dieter.htm , that's what I was reminded of when I saw that pic of him. Compare the side pic of Sammy to the dane, then to the side pic (3rd one down the page) of this dog: http://hartagold.com/junior.htm , and you might better see what I'm talking about.
  15. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Okay - now I understand what you mean. With Sammy, I think it looks worse because of the angle and how he's standing. I also think that with both Sammy and Maggie, their being long in the body makes it appear worse. Actually, they all kinda look that way to me, except BJ. I dunno - I'm going to have to study the standard and a lot of pics...lol.

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