German Rottweilers registered in AKC as just Rottweilers?

I am getting a German Rottweiler and I was looking on the AKC site looking for info on German Rottweilers specifically but there are only Rottweilers. I know the breeder I am getting my dog from is registered with AKC but are they only registered as Rottweilers? Does anyone know of a site with lots of good info on German Rottweilers specifically?? I can only find breeder sites and they are mostly a description and pictures of stud dogs and stuff... Any sites would be helpful. I am also looking for a site to shop or my puppy, anyone know of a good shopping site? Thanks

 

Rottweillers, I believe, originated in Germany which might explain that. My nephew had, what he swore, was an Australian Boxer but he had a boxer - I was told they originated in Australia
people used to refer to poodles as French Poodles (anyone remember that)...but they were all Poodles.

 

Well German Rottweilers are bigger than the original Rottweiler the stud of the puppy I am getting stands 33" tall and weighs 181 lbs and the female stands 31" tall and weighs 169 lbs. The height of a male rottweiler is 22-27" I'm not sure about females but look at the difference. The range is 22-27" and the male is 3" under 3 ft!!! Thats a big dog! I don't know the weight ranges off the top of my head. I just have the 22-27" memorized. Maybe that is the reason there is no recognised "German" Rottweiler but I know there is a difference in size and weight.

 

Here's an interesting site: German vs. American Rottweilers
http://www.rckrotts.com/gva.html

 

found this
AKC Structure vs. European Type
a perspective

by Steve Wolfson

After spending many years on the AKC dog show circuit, learning and having fun an unusual feeling came over me. I became a bit disenchanted with that venue. I felt there wasn't enough feed back and learning for me; I wanted more than parading my dog around the ring, up and back, down and around. Coincidentally, at that same time a small band of Rottweiler enthusiasts had gotten together to form a new club which was based on the European style of showing their dogs.

This new style wasn't really "new", but here in the US it was a welcome alternative and caught on with tremendous popularity. The first show which I had attended touting this new style was the Berksiana Rottweiler Club back in 1990. It was a super show which included two German ADRK judges, 300 entries, ring size able to accommodate a specialty of this importance and much exuberance. This seemed to me a more precise way of judging my Rottweiler, and why not? The judges were from Germany, the homeland of the Rottweiler. Who could be more knowledgeable than they?

Now it is July, 2001, eleven years later, and my thinking has evolved! When attending shows both AKC and "European", ( see notation below) venues, I now place the most emphasis on the judge, including the style by which he/she administers their expertise, rather than only viewing the exhibits people bring. For me, the most important person at the show is the judge. This is the one we entrust our dogs to. Expecting and paying for an expert opinion on the quality, or the lack of in our breeding program is why we are there.

(Note: the term "German shows" is a misnomer. More correctly it is a European style of showing and judging not particular to Germany, or invented by the Germans, but used widely through out all of Europe.)

Every judge, no matter AKC or European, brings a personal style of judging and preference in breed type, to the ring. The style or "accents", where the judge places his/her emphasis on judging the exhibits is of major importance. For example:

Does the judge look for type in their placements?

Is the judge only a head hunter?

Is movement the only important element?

How much importance is placed on the down and back?

What is the judge's background, what is their original breed? These are some of the critical points which will determine the outcome of the placements.


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DIFFERING POINTS OF REFERENCE

AKC Emphasis on Structure / European Emphasis on Type

AKC Structure

Aside from the obvious difference in judging styles, i.e.: providing a written critique of the exhibit in the European show, the AKC / British style of judging has a fundamental difference. The goals are the same in each venue, picking the best specimens, however the AKC style of adjudicating the exhibits places emphasis in a different area than the European show.

A great preference in AKC is placed on soundness of structure demonstrated through canine gait. The reasoning for this is, and to me no argument here, "if the dog moves correctly it is reasonable to assume the dog has soundness of structure". If an all around judge is uncertain of what is correct breed tyke he/she merely has to select the best gaiting dog as a demonstration of quality. We see this at every AKC show all the time. Unfortunately this is sometimes taken to extremes by certain judges.

Many, judges will award ribbons to a dog/bitch simply on the fact that it was the best gaiting dog, no matter the dog had poor, or mediocre breed type. It moved reasonably well, it receives the points. At the all breed show some judges will move dogs up and back to ascertain which is the "cleanest" moving to a point of absurdity. At one event I comically observed a judge move each exhibit up and back, once for his initial inspection, then again after that inspection, then two more times after making his placements. It was a dizzying spectacle and became boring to say the least. Suddenly the judge pointed to the dog which was the poorest mover and gave it the nod. Why all this copious action when the final outcome had nothing to do with his request for the best demonstration of canine gait?

I attended a Colonial Rottweiler Club specialty years ago and the judge adjudicating males was an experienced pro with a background in Dobermans. (note: many Doberman judges receive Rottweiler assignments. Why? Perhaps the thinking is Rottweilers and Dobermans have attributes in common, in actuality they have very little. This premise is erroneous and consequently should not be the only determining consideration when picking judges with Doberman backgrounds). I'm not sure he was all that interested in breed type (perhaps he was not sure what correct type was) since he made each handler with their exhibit move up and back two and even three times. Possibly his preference was on clean, coming and going, trying to select the Rottweiler which moved up and back correctly? Perhaps he was looking for the best Rottweiler with exemplary reach and drive demonstrated in side gait? His eventual pick was an example of bias towards selecting dogs with the best canine gait. The winner's dog, which became Best of Breed, demonstrated excellent side gait, strong reach and drive, all good construction traits, yet from a Rottweiler specialty point of view, in my opinion had mediocre breed type.

I have often heard an expression at AKC shows and from other knowledgeable people "at a specialty, the judge looks for side gait on his/her placements and at all breed shows the best up and back movement". This leaves me with more questions to ask, such as: Why would side gait be more important at a specialty show and less important at an all breed show, and where did this expression come from? I'm not sure of its origin, but I have seen it come to fruition.

SIDE GAIT vs. UP AND BACK

THE UP AND BACK

Since a judge cannot measure the actual angulation of the rear, the actual lay back of shoulder on a live specimen in the ring, only a reasonable assumption about it's correctness of structure can be deduced simply by observing a dog move around the ring.

Many judges place a great deal of emphasis on the up and back movement and it is mutually agreed a good amount of information can be assessed about a dog's structure this way. Consequently we can ascertain a very close approximation of the correctness of the front and rear assembly. In his book the Dynamics of Canine Gait (1) Leon Hollenbeck states "Going away and coming back will immediately bring to the forefront the tracking tendencies and the manner of gait exhibited by the specimen and as these traits are directly related to overall make up, such as structure, proportion, character, etc., it is then up to the judge to decide whether these characteristics are those desired and to gauge them accordingly. Muscular control at elbows, blades, stifles, and hocks will be evident, and so will vertical columns of support. Here too in the approach will be very visible evidence of desirable or undesirable feet, as necessary for the dog as for

Even though the up and back examination reveals certain details about structure, other important factors are not. Where can further information about the structure of the dog be overtly examined?, through side gait.

SIDE GAIT

We can tell more about the structure of the dog through observing side gait than any other movement. Here is where the imbalances and problems become exposed. The lack of good angulation, problems with top line, neck set, hocks, feet etc. are revealed through side gait. At specialty shows side gait is emphasized and for good reason: the rings are much, much larger than the smaller shows, therefore problems with structure become more apparent. Additionally any encumbrances to reach and drive will also be highlighted if there are inequities in structure. Many judges feel more comfortable evaluating a dog's soundness of structure through this method and may even conclude most of their decisions about placement based solely how the dog propels itself through side gait. This is reasonable.

Unfortunately a key element is most often missing on evaluating an exhibit's worthiness for a ribbon in the AKC and that is correct breed type.

EUROPEAN EMPHASIS ON TYPE

The European emphasis on breed type places a different spin on the style of showing dogs than that of the AKC. Not that soundness of structure and gait are not important in the determination of a dog's worthiness, but to the Europeans, the elements of the dog's breed type must be abundantly evident first.

When attending this style of show you can see major differences in the type of dogs which are exhibited. Breed type faults which are tolerated and sometimes rewarded in the AKC show ring such as pink gums, light eyes, straw markings, and wetness of skin, are frowned upon and penalized greatly in this venue of showing. One trait in particular which is handled completely different in European showing is that of eye color. Light color of eyes such as 3b or lighter would certainly put you at the end of the line, possibly excused!

THE CRITIQUE AND CHARACTER

THE CRITIQUE

Having a judge verbally critique a dog and sign their name to it puts the judge in a more demanding role than that of the AKC. Not only does this require the judge to know and understand the fine details of the breed, but the critique can be used later for reference and holds the judge accountable for what comments they have made about the exhibit.

After the dog is evaluated by critique, the judge must determine a rating for the dog from unsatisfactory to excellent (ratings of U unsatisfactory - V excellent) according to the amount of faults the dog possesses, or conversely how close it comes to the perfection of the standard.

This process of critiquing a dog is not an easy task. A judge must serve an apprenticeship, be schooled in the methodology and most importantly must have a thorough understanding of the breed both in character and type. Interestingly, this process can reveal insights about the judge on a personal level. Simply by following the verbiage by which the judge uses to describe each exhibit, it exposes ones who "know the breed" and the ones who "don't know the breed." It is also a learning experience for all who attend the show, especially for the breeders and owners of the exhibits since they are the ones who can profit the most from a critique.

CHARACTER

Besides in depth knowledge of the breed concerning type, a judge must also be familiar with the "true" character of the Rottweiler. In addition to the assessment of the dog's structure and type, the judge is required to comment on the demeanor of the dog in the critique. We will often hear a judge saying such things as "friendly and alert", "sociable", "not friendly", "too aggressive", "shy", etc. These notations go on the critique and if a dog is too shy, too aggressive or belligerent, it should and will be purged from the ring.

We can also observe the character of the dog from its "Willingness to Perform" during the gaiting segment of the show. It is essential the dogs be able to gait under the pressure of competition for two reasons:

To determine the working character of the dog, (one must never underemphasize it is a working dog), a judge must evaluate "eagerness to work". This is ascertained by the exuberance which the exhibit shows or lads of it under the competitive pressures of the show ring. Many a dog that looked good standing still, fell far from the mark when it was seen being pushed and cajoled around the ring by the owner/handler.

Secondly, the opposite of this is the belligerent dog who only wants to fight with the other exhibits which is certainly not correct either. Working dog temperament demands a dog that is amiable and will run because it enjoys, freely, what the owner wishes it to do.

During prolonged exertion while running many laps around the ring, energy reserves dwindle, the dog (and handler) must reach down from within and maintain focus (much the same way an athlete will do when he/she is faced with stress). Not all dogs are capable of doing this consequently the judge can assess its "Rottweiler character." The lazy dog will slow down and refuse to endure; the spirited dog will push on.

STRUCTURE

The structure of the dog is determined best, by prolonged gaiting. Requiring a to dog gait only once around the ring we will see obvious problems which most likely were noted during the critique segment. To determine a hidden structural problem not apparent while the dog gaited in the up and back or side gait, one must observe the dog while it has expended greater amounts of energy.

Underlying faults and fine imbalances become obvious when it has traversed the ring 8 15 times! Hidden problems with joints, tendons or muscles will be brought to the surface when the dog is pushed to exert itself. The correctly built dog, overtly or covertly, will show no signs of problems even though it endured sustained running time.

IS ONE VENUE BETTER THAN THE OTHER?

I have spent many years in both venues competing and have wrangled with this problem over and over. Conclusively I don't think one is better than the other. Yet, more precisely, are different. Each style is to be respected on its approach for the evaluation of a dog's worthiness. Some exhibitors choose not to cross the line but stay in the arena they feel more comfortable with. Others have successfully crossed over to switch back and forth enjoying the different styles. This allows them to gain a wider perspective and profit from both.

I would like to see a "hybridization" of the two styles combining the best from each. To me, one is somewhat empty without the other. I have seen many AKC Rottweilers become champions which fit just minimally into the standard. Why this occurs is due primarily to the factors which I have previously stated. Judges are not combining the dog's breed type merits along with its ability to gait around the ring. This approach has gotten the breed into trouble since we now see serious type faults that were not abundant only 10 years ago. Along with this problem we have all-rounder judges adjudicating nationals and regionals which should not be allowed to do this. Not that they are without knowledge, but they see the breed through limited perspective in that they will never know the fine details which the breed was developed.

On the other view, some breeder specialists from foreign countries see the Rottweiler also with myopic vision, but with a different spin. They know breed type well, but somehow overlook balance and structure in the dog for sake of breed type. Faults which would not be passed over in the AKC ring such as cow hocks, slight easty westy, high in the rear, medium reach and drive, are forgiven simply because the dog had above average breed type. They often will penalize a good, typey dog which demonstrates reach and drive on the fact it has a 3a eye color! (2 See chart below)

I have attended and ring stewarded many of this type of show and conversed with judges. Frequently the judge has already made their mind up as to the merit of the dog after the critique has been made. Curiously I would ask them "Perhaps you will change your mind when you see the dog gait around the ring," their reply is, "I've already seen what I needed to know". Some will not changed their minds yet others have taken a second look.

At this time I don't see how to combine these two differing style of shows so that we could reap the best of both worlds. One possibility is to have the winners at a specialty receive a critique from the judge. I do know that many in the AKC venue have taken notice of their European counterparts' different style of show.

Possible suggestions to improve the AKC style of showing and heighten awareness of Breed Type:

1. Demand from judges a better knowledge of breed type through judges' education groups and seminars

2. Withhold entries on judges which ignore the breed type traits we hold important.

3. Demand from your local clubs, judges which are knowledgeable on breed type and correct Rottweiler gait

Possible suggestions to improve the European style of showing and heighten awareness of structure and correct Rottweiler gait:

1. Demand from judges a better knowledge of correct Rottweiler gait and soundness of structure

2. Withhold entries on judges which ignore gait and pick them standing still

3. Demand from your local clubs judges which are knowledgeable on breed type and correct Rottweiler gait

 

More than likely, German Rottweilers are simply considered a different strain of Rott.

With German Shepherds, there are American lines and German lines, but they're both registered as GSDs.

 

sorry that was about shows and I couldn't delete it

here's a site http://www.bigskyrottrescue.org/GermanVSAmerican.htm

 

German Rott is in reference to a dog from original German stock that has not been bred down in size....its the same as the German Shepherd, about 20 something years ago...the only time I ever paid for full breed I specifically went out looking for a German bred GSD, I like the larger size, bigger head etc, although I wanted a long haired also which at that time in UK would have disqualified from it showing....I wasnt interested in showing though, I just really prefer the bigger stock. My Rott Babe (the one that had diabetes/bone cancer) was from German stock, bred and bought in either Malibu or Pacific Palisades area, she weighed about 105-110# and wasnt overweight.).

 

I also prefer the bigger dogs with bigger heads and everything. I knew someone that had a German Rottweiler and I fell in live with his dog. I already wanted a Rottie but now I was looking for a German Rottie. I am buying it from Michigan though. It's no-where that far away. If I want to show my German Rottie is the long hair going to disqualify it for showing? because I do want to show or at least in agility competitions. I still need to find a show in Oregon or in Washington next to the OR border. And an agility training place with all the equipment. I'll worry about that later. I know that the pup will be papered when I get it, so I won't need to go through the trouble. I was just wondering if on the papers if it'll say Rottweiler or German Rottweiler. Thats okay though either one is okay. I just want a BIG dog. This will also be my first Rottweiler and purebred alone so I am worried about hip displasia and other diseases common in the Rottweiler breed. The pups are getting tested for hip displasia before I get it, so I think I'm safe on that. What other diseases are common in Rotties? Anyone know?

 

Yes, AKC rotties are only registered as Rottweilers. I'm concerned that you haven't already discussed medical issues and your hopes of showing with the breeder, but it's great that you're thinking of this before you actually get the pup. AKC registration isn't a stamp of quality -- there's plenty of AKC registered dogs that are genetic messes. I'd be especially careful with a popular breed such as the rottweiler; many backyard breeders breed pups without concern for the quality of the stock. Please be sure to be certain that the breeder of your dog is knowledgable about medical conditions that rotties are predisposed to and has gotten the appropiate certifications. There are quite a few serious ones: Sub-Aortic Stenosis, Hip Dysplasia, Hypothroidism, Osteosarcoma, Juvenile Cataracts, Elbow Dysplasia. http://www.amrottclub.org/health.htm

I would contact the club to check up on whether the breeder is a member in good standing. HD is definitely a concern (are the parents tested as well as the pups?), but I would also be sure the breeder is aware of other conditions such as subaortic stenosis (a serious heart condition), osteosarcoma (bone cancer), etc.

And yes, a long coat will totally disqualify your dog from the conformation ring. In fact, being too large or small is a serious fault, too: "Dogs--24 inches to 27 inches. Bitches--22 inches to 25 inches, with preferred size being mid-range of each sex. Correct proportion is of primary importance, as long as size is within the standard's range." http://www.akc.org/breeds/rottweiler/index.cfm However, I'm pretty sure that you can compete in other AKC sanctioned competitions (agility, obedience, herding trials, etc.). If the breeder is advertising his or her dogs as being 'oversized', I would be VERY concerned that the breeder is a backyard breeder.

 

If you're paying for any sort of 'testing' for HD in a puppy; Don't. It won't tell you much, and isn't worth it. HD is a degenerative condition that developes over time, and pups with normal looking hips can show severe dysplasia at 2 years, which is why OFA doesn't certify puppies.

And be aware that two OFA excellent parents can still have puppies that have HD. There aren't any guarantees.

 

Thanks for the clarification, Shineillusion. When I read that the breeder was having the pups tested for HD, I wondered about that myself. Do you happen to know how common it is for offspring of OFA excellent parents to develop HD?

 

As far as I know, the parents are both tested for HD. The breeder is having them tested as puppies but if my dog has any trouble later I will have her tested again. Thanks for all the other info I needed more diseases that are common in rottweilers so I can do some research. I'm more interested in showing for agility rather than showmanship and thats where the disqualification would come in. I know these pups will be bigger than the standard sizes because the stud is 33" tall 181 lbs and the bitch is 31" and 169 lbs. So that could be another disqualification like you said about size. This breeder I am getting my pup from also breeds Labradors, I'm not sure what color but they have 5 Rotties and 2 Labs. And as far as I know, the other 3 rotties are pups from their breeding pair. I think they only breed the 2 Rotties not all 5.

 

Great to hear that you're planning to give your dog a 'job' to do and that you're continuing to research.

The American Rottweiler Club has a great FAQ that discusses more of the medical conditions that the breed is prone to encountering and also has info on behavior, temperament, and training. http://www.amrottclub.org/rottweilers.htm

I would also check out a Rottweiler-specific forum like www.rottweiler.net -- that way you can ask experienced Rottie people for advice about choosing a puppy, the breeder's credentials, health issues, training, etc.

Good luck with your pup!

 

Agree with shine on the OFA x-rays, we wouldnt do them until minimum 18 months old usually a little older to get a true picture.
Another disease to look for is diabetes, I dont know if this is just around LA but Ive seen a vast increase in Rotts with this over the last few years. Also I know the history of my Rott Babe, I know the original owner and the guy who had researched the history etc...everything was done right, all the testing had been done there was no trace of osteosarcoma or diabetes in there, she was diagnosed with diabetes after a bad case of pancreatitis where she almost died, 2 years later she had osteosarcoma.

 

Well I will find out if the breeder has any guarantee or if they pay for vets bills up to acertain age if something goes wrong, or if they will take the dog back for whatever reason.

 

German Rots vs American Rots

This may explain the Rots my brother described. He purchased a pup about a year ago. The male and female were over 170lbs with the male coming in around 200lbs. He said both were a lot larger and taller than other Rots he had ever seen. The breeder told him that they were referred by some as the King Rot...This must have been a German Bred Rot...

 

A good reputabnle breeder will want the dog back if things dont work out....at least the ones that I know always do.

 

The problem with the type of health guarantees where they will replace the dog is that I would never be able to part with the dog! Then I would be stuck with all the vet bills and emotional trauma. It's not like it's a car and you can just trade it in if it turns out to be a lemon.

However, a good breeder usually will take the dog back at any point in its life for whatever reason. So, say something happens and you can no longer care for the dog - like you get really sick or something - then the breeder will take it back and keep it or rehome it.