Help me decide on my next breed..

Ok, Annie's dad and I are starting early..in about a year or so, we will have room for another dog..since I picked Annie without consulting Annie's dad first, it's his turn to pick a pup, but I certainly get a say..lol
We love pit bulls, but we're thinking of getting another breed.
The ones we're interested in right now are:
Doberman
Presa Canario
Boxer
German Shepherd(ok..this is all me..shepherds will always be near and dear to my heart)

If not the first year we have it, but maybe the next year, we will be on a farm...I need a dog that's respectful of horses..Annie's dad also loves protection breeds. So we're open to other breeds as well, we're in the research phase..I'd love to hear what you have to say about these dogs or any others you think might me a good match. Since we'll be in Texas, it has to handle heat well, even though it will be an indoor dog..I work outdoors and it will be with me most of the time.

 

If more people started researching their next dog early, I imagine there'd be a lot less misplaced dogs, and displeased ownerd, so it's definitely not a bad thing :lol:

Have you thought about an American Bulldog? They're a large breed, and depending on what they're bred for, can definitely fall under the protection category. In addition, there are a lot of breeders breeding both working(which can also make great pets for the right home) and show/pet line dogs, and many do at least some health testing (plus there are several large AB rescue groups in existence if you decided to go that route). There are several different "types" of AB, ranging in appearance from a leggy English Bulldog looking type to a large APBT looking type, with many falling between the two. There is enough variety in the breed that you could most likely find what you want easily, and because there's still a strong vein of breeders keeping the dogs in work, there is a good supply of dogs with good nerves/structure able to handle that if it's what you desire, whereas with some other more "mainstream" breeds, you'll have to look harder to find a good one. The only downfall might be with livestock, since they're descending from baiting dogs as well, the instinct is there. I would imagine that could be curbed or never even be an issue if the dog was exposed to livestock from a young age and taught how to behave around them, and I'm sure there are also some lines out there that have tamed down the instinct to grab and hold.

 

Concidering the area of the country you're living in, you might concider a Yellow Cur, also known as a Blackmouth Cur or Southern Cur. They're splendid dogs for farm and family. Large and atheletic, active but not hyperactive, smart, willing, and easily trained, and 100% loyal to their family.
They're natural protectors, make excellent stock dogs or hunting dogs, and because they aren't popular or shown in conformation, there is little if any dilution of their working ability.

The dog who protrayed Old Yeller, in the Disney movie, was a Yellow Cur, and typifies the breeds personality to a T.

I must confess, I'm particularly partial to the breed. Every single one I've known, and there have been more than a few, has been an outstanding working dog, while at the same time possessing an extremely bidable temprement. And they've all been superb with the kiddies, too.

 

The dog who portrayed Old Yeller was a lab... The dog who WAS old Yeller in the book was a Black Mouth Cur...

I still think that if you want a large breed you go with the Cane Corso or Boerboel......LOL

So...do tell what you decide when you do...

 

I actually have relatives in Texas that breed Curs. They use them for hog hunting. They are nice little dogs (little is relative of course..hehe).
But seeing as Annie's dad gets the choice this time, he really wants a large, dog that's beautiful to him, and his taste lies in the mastiff types, or the very muscular, athletic types...like the boxer and doberman..

hmm..AB..hadn't considered that one..I just don't know how easy it would be to find the type I'd want, but I've got a year right? hehe

Ok, another question for you Sara about BBs and anyone that knows Corso's..i'll repost this part on the other forum for Cattledog..
Since i have horses, and will be giving lessons, I don't want a dog that will herd them while people are on them, even if out of control...that's a huge liability for me..I think it would be great if I had a dog that could bring them up from pasture...I had an instructor with a German Shepherd that did that and it was great, but can I have it both ways? Because if I had to choose, I'd choose no herding whatsoever, simply because I can't afford a lawsuit if someone gets dumped while on their horse or one of mine.

 

I answered you on the other board...

AB's are really hard to find that don't have problems in the heat... They've got the problem because of the smushy face and have a soft pallat problem...many lines do and it'd take a lot of research to find a dog from the right line that didn't have the problem... Soft pallat is smaller and messes with air intake and when the dog is hot and panting...it uses nose AND mouth to intake air to cool... I'd NOT look at the AB unless you are really dedicated to the breed and to looking for the right dog...THAT would take lots of time and TONS of effort to weed out good breeders from bad who are willing to be honest about the problems that come with the AB's these days.

 

AB's are great additions if you already have animals as they have a much more relaxed temperament than pits. i would stay VERY far away from cane corsos because of their temperament.females are fairly trouble-free but the males can become extraordinarily territorial and aggressive even towards relatively well known individuals ,and yet they don't make good guard dogs because their aggression is based on the intruders reaction...most corsos will retreat when advanced upon, according to most gaurd dog trainers. ( i've asked quite a few professional trainers and pits and cane corsos are at the bottom of the list for gaurd work for lots of reasons). presa canario i have no idea about although are just incredible looking dogs...really beautiful. anyone ever owned one or had experience with them?

 

Presa's are very tough dogs and most trainers don't touch them because they are so hard...too hard... Aggressive to a fault, NOT like you describe Cane Corsos.

I've never heard or seen the information you relay about Cane Corso's so I wonder what kind of socialization and training the dogs in general got and what kind of breeding they came from... What you describe of the breed is not standard... They're territorial and CAN be aggressive but not fearfull... NO guardian or drover should be fearfull and that is a mark of bad socialization or bad breeding... AB's are good dogs...but health problems plague them and being in the heat of texas their main problem could pose serious issues if you don't do your homework (lots of it...)

When you talk to trainers it depends on what they are training for on how they will rate the dog. I know for sport the Boerboels are NOT ideal...they are not as committed as many of the more prey driven dogs are... They would be something to think about in terms of liability because they are controllable and don't use excess force... They test the situation before jumping all in there and they will not chase down something that is retreating beyond...their territory... I'd rather have intruder run and be safe than run and get mauled anyway... Deterrence is the key and if you want a livestock dog... Cane Corso's are not bad...

the KEY in all of this is finding the right breeder to get you the right dog for your situation...

I'm still thinking a BB or CC is better than the rest on your list... Visit breeders of each... and talk to owners of both. I've met several CC's and Presa's and my own Boerboels...as well as others and they're among the better breeds... It comes down to how strongly you feel you are capable being harsh on a dog etc... How often you feel you can assert dominance and how committed you want your dog to be in terms of YOU being master and end all for EVERYTHING it does... All three breeds are VERY Similar.

 

I've never heard or seen the information you relay about Cane Corso's so I wonder what kind of socialization and training the dogs in general got and what kind of breeding they came from... What you describe of the breed is not standard... They're territorial and CAN be aggressive but not fearfull...



never said they were fearfull..i said they retreat when advanced upon. if you speak to people who train dogs for gaurd work they will classify dogs based on their respones in situations. pits don't make good gaurd dogs #1 because they are either extremely friendly towards anyone or man shy and training them out of that goes against their nature. its not impossible to do it, it's just not practical. in much the same way a cane corso initial reaction would to be assertive, aggressive, and dominant...however they often will abandon this posture if the intruder or other animal continues to advance upon them. thus its not that they can't be good gaurd dogs its just that they are not preferred for it. as for the quality of the CC's in question they are very well bred show dogs that recieved quite a bit of socialization. as far as the standard goes i believe that territorial and aggressive would be in the practical description of them. i love my babies ( APBT) but i don't kid myself about what they are capable of...they are sweet and goofy all day long but just the same they are agressive and the males are VERY territorial.
now if you want something that people are going to run from the cc would be great but if you want a gaurd dog ask a local trainer what the most suitable dog would be.

 

I have a boxer and two pits. I own five acres. Boxers are awesome dogs but cannot stand heat for long periods of time. It is recommended that they are inside dogs, which mine is. She is awesome with children, the other two pits, the rabbit, the cats and any other thing she comes across. Last night she caught a turtle. She loves to chase her daddy on the 4wheeler and playing outside. She does have cardiomyapothy and she is on meds for it, but I couldn't ask for a better dog. She is very protective of me and our home. She knows how to be gentle with Blaze and how rough she can be with Honey. My husbands best friend has a bull mastiff and american bulldog mix, brindle. Gorgeous dog. Awesome dog. He is just as good if not better than our Sasha. Sorry, I am not too fond of Shephards, personal bad experience only. Goldren Retrievers are good dogs too. Let us know when you guys decide. Congrats on the new comer and may you have many wonderful memories with your new baby. :y_the_best:

 

If you talk to trainers you'll notice that a retreat would be a NON-Brave response...in essence a fearfull response to an attacker...running from a threat in any case...is generally classified as retreat based on fear or lack of confidence to engage the threat...

I've seen SEVERAL Cane Corso's on sleeve and doing protection work...like I said...it depends on the type of training you are doing and the type of dog you want. In this case...guardian and livestock duties are what is wanted here and I'm still sticking to my ideal that the CC or BB are better bets if you're looking at Mastiffs... I'm not sure what training you're talking about... ANY time a dog runs from a threat though is what a protection trainer would classify as weak nerves... If a dog doesn't want to engage a threat they are weak nerved and deemed "fearfull" in the protection training scheme of things. Socialization can help but you can still socialize a weak nerved dog all you want and you still can't have the outcome of a brave dog for guardian duties...

My guess is that a CC conducts himself in the same way as my Boerboels do... They are NOT trial and sport protectors and do not conduct themselves in that manner when "attacking"... GENERALLY you get a BIG display of "GET OUT OR ELSE"...a bite and retreat of sorts that generally serves the purpose of one more warning and then once the threat is deemed something WORTH biting and attacking (IE the threat keeps advancing etc...) the dog will attack full on...ONCE the threat is no longer threatening...IE leaving the scen, dropping the weapon, NOT advancing any longer...dog is done attacking the point of a guardian breed that was TRULY bred just to guard is to GET THE THREAT AWAY weather killing it does that or simply barking as the intruder runs away... THey dont' chase because at that point it would be a predatory response and they don't hold too well as that too is a predatory response...

ALSO keep in mind Mastiffs mature MUCH slower than our pits and other dogs... By the age of Two you might have a good male that will commit to attacking an intruder... MIGHT...likely you will but if you have a male dog...you can't count on them fully till they are fully mature...two or three years of age... FEMALEs are different...mature much faster and are generally more territorial accrossed the board... BUT the CC's you may have seen retreating...were either BAD reps. of the breed or were too young...

the Trainer also has a lot to do with the scenario...as I mentioned before...

MOST trainers for sport will tell you a GSD is the best guard dog or a Malinois... BUT those dogs switch from defense to prey drive quickly and often this can cause us civilian problems in the legal sense... If I have a GSD and a BB, an intruder comes and I am not there or unable to communicate to the dog...the GSD and BB will be able to keep threat at bay...say the guy decided he had better things to do...turns to head out the door...GSD will persue, BB will not... Difference??? GSD is more relying on predatory reactions (herders are prey driven) and the BB is not...defense is it's primary thought process and motivator...as with the CC a Guardian type dog... I'm going out on a limb here with the idea a CC is better suited at droving and livestock work than at being a trule guardian of the property...BUT this still can make a good guard dog and HAS in many instances...

I've talked to NUMEROUS trainers in the feild of BOTH sport work and personal protection as well as K9 police trainers... NEVER have I heard that a CC is generally going to run from a threat if correct in temperment.

 

Someday.....
Bottom line is this, dont get a breed your not comfortable with or cant handle. Take into account the other pets you have, your horses, if your doing riding lessons on your property there will be different people coming and going. Personally I wont have a dog that I am physically unable to control should a bad situation arise. Dogs are not robots and they can all have an 'off day'. (and Ive had GSD's, a 120# Rott and a variety of Pit type dogs so Im not exactly a wimp when it comes to handling them).
One example: 2 Presa Canarias tearing a woman to pieces in San Fransisco a few yours ago, the owner/handler was not able to do anything at all to stop them, they had been protection trained...
Researching a breed your thinking of getting is essential but keep in mind that just because 'the book' says one thing it doesnt mean that every dog of that breed will be that way.

 

VERY good point and is exactly part of the reason I'm not a fan of Presa's in particular... They are NOT easily controlled and are dominant... The woman with the dogs had no business taking two out much less one in that type of scenario...

They were NOT protection trained had they been protection trained the Second degree murder charge would not have been changed as it was... IF they were trained there wouldn't have been question one about charging them with second degree murder...

There is only one incidnet of a protection trained dog I've EVER seen reported on the news attacking ANYONE and it was two rotts that were bite trained (video clips)... Done correctly a Protection trained dog is going to be more controllable than a non-protection trained dog...

Not argueing just making sure the point is made that it's a control issue not a training issue.

I'm 5' 2" and have THREE Boerboels... I take ALL THREE out for walks at a time and have complete control over them and I'm not a screaming maniac... HOWEVER training and temperment have everything to do with THAT so... As you know... Keep all of that in mind...

My advice or information regarding both breeds comes from my own findings as the owner of Boerboels and researcher of CC's... I looked into both seriously before choosing one and dismissed the Presa... The breed I CHOSE to own is directly correlated with the ammount of control I wanted to have over the dog and how dominant the breed as a whole is supposed to be... THAT said, EVERY dog is different...and once you choose a breed you'll need to narrow it down to a dog by dog basis and look at bloodlines etc... With a LARGE dog that is protective you MUST do your homework as you are...

It's great to see you researching and learning..but just because you pick your breed doesn't mean you're done researching lines and behavior.

JMO...

 

Obviously concerning the 2 Presa's I read different early reports than you, but then again in this situation who would 'publically' own up to training 2 dogs that had just killed someone knowing that they could also be held accountable to a degree.

You did make a good point with this comment though:

"Done correctly a Protection trained dog is going to be more controllable than a non-protection trained dog..."
Problem is there are a lot of people out there passing themselves off as dog trainers and doing protection work, they're making a lot of money from people and creating more aggressive dogs because they're training methods are inadequate.
I would like to point out that just because you only know of one case where protection trained dogs have killed someone does not mean that its only happened one time.

Not argueing, just making sure the point is made that it IS a training and a control issue.

 

Yes I agree with both...

I beleive I mentioned above that it's the type of training that matters and the Trainer involved...

ULTIMATELY though even with tons of training, the RIGHT training some people are just not cut out for some breeds of dogs...

On a scale...if you were to put Drover/guardians in a list by dominance, aggression and controllability/trainability... I'm going to say that the two easier ones would in fact be the CC and BB and the Presa would be up at the top being one of the harder controlled dogs...

To me Control and training go hand in hand in most respects...but again...I know what kinds of dogs I can handle and what kind I can't, thus my choice, regardless of training... I'd not likely be capable of taking on a Mal. without supervision and HELP in even just the OB training... I'd not take the ownership of a Mal lightly etc...

I think you get my point and I'm positive we're going at it from the same point of view just different language is being used...

Someday I beleive has ample ammount of knowledge and recources to handle a Guardian Mastiff breed but one of the more docile ones... Simple concept really. To train requires control so...it basically comes down to control in chooseing what breed.

 

Sara- Oh, I completely agree that researching the breed is the first step...this is simply to find out where to start my researching. I fully plan on researching bloodlines, visiting with many representations of the breed and picking anyone's brains that I can find when I settle on a breed..or even two. I need to narrow it down to 1-2 breeds before I start this though because it would take far more than a year to do that for more than that many breeds.

As for feeling comfortable with large dogs...not a problem. I'm quite attracted to them, and am not worried about control. I will get a trainer to work with and am quite capable of training in the basic sense. Being only 5'0 and under 100lbs, most dogs are far stronger than I am, not to mention 1000lbs horses. Strength has no factor in it, you don't need to be strong to be in control. I don't mind the strong minded dogs..i enjoy the challenge, I've never been much for the golden retriever types..hehe

 

See I have had you pegged all along... Only reason I go against the Presa in this sense is because of the people coming and going and with such a strong dog it can be difficult to call away from what it thinks it needs to do... Training is great and a must and I think you're absolutely on the right track...

I CAN'T wait to hear who you're going to be really researching and what you finally choose...and pics of course... I always love pics...

 

Just wanted to clarify this comment I made:

I wasnt refering to the general strength of the dog, I was referring to a situation arising as with the 2 Presa's.

Another situation that comes to mind was with a 210# Mastiff a co worker had about 10 years ago, the dog was trained well, she had full off leash control, there had been some aggression problems early on but for over 3 years everything was fine then the dog suddenly turned on a neighbour that the dog had known for about 18 months, it happened in front of the owner, her husband and another friend, all 3 were unable to do anything to stop it, luckily someone had a gun and shot the dog or the guy would have been killed, a necropsy ruled out any medical cause for the attack. (brain tumour etc). As for the owner she was a respected breeder, had a good line of show dogs, mostly their personalities where excellent.
The Mastiff types that Ive worked with both in training and in the medical field I havent had a problem with, with a few it was a challenge both physically and mentally but all round a great experience, the toughest dog I ever trained was a 3# Maltese Terrier....thats was fun!!!!
So back to my comment, Ive been in situations where various breeds have for one reason or another (usually in the medical field and usually not with injured dogs) 'decided' to attack either the owner, the vet or a co-worker and when you see that happening it makes you think, do I need or want a dog that has the potential to kill me, my clients dogs that come to the house, kids that come over? Id rather not risk it. Its just my personal feeling on the subject. I dont know much about the Corsa or Boerbeols except what Ive read including what youve said about them Sara, and your love and respect for these dogs is clear, but I have a habit of seeing potential problems further down the road and to be honest just reading your posts it seems to me that both of these breeds are like ticking time bombs waiting to go off.

 

Hmmm... Well if you wanted to get into ticking time bombs and owning dogs that have the ability to kill you I'm not sure why you're on an APBT forum...

THAT said any dog can be dangerous and I'm not sure where your getting "Ticking Time Bombs" but I do have to say that your comment has offended me greatly especially comeing from an APBT owner... BOTH of these breeds are not NEW breeds mind you and they are BOTH respected in their feild and country of origin as WORKING dogs trustworthy to be working on farms with livestock etc...

There are over 700 Boerboel's Registered in the US and to date I have NEVER heard of one becoming a Killer without provocation and reason (medical or owner fault etc...) I am taken Aback quite a bit that you feel this way...and own pits...

Your comments about dogs being controllable etc...is to me something that is argueably one of THE most common reasons people don't own or tell other people not to own pits and THE most common reason people tend to give when supporting BSL... That said I'd assume you don't own an animal that out weighs you or even comes close to out weighing you? I also assume you must own a Pit without teeth perhaps??? My 40 lb pit has more potential to do more damage to me than my 120 lb Boerboel because of sheer bite power and determination... My 70lb Pit does as well and probably MORE potential when we're talking about strength and basic ability... I'd beleive that in MOST APBT's even the small ones... ANY dog has the potential to kill a person...even small dogs...there are delicate parts they can get at on a human that does not require size and strength... MANY labs are as big as my female Boerboel...I beleive the lab has AS MUCH if not MORE of a capability and reason for becoming a "ticking time bomb" as a Boerboel...for ONE the Lab has been overbred to the point that getting a dog with a bad temperment is MUCH more likely than in another more uncommon and less overbred breed... I feel the same way about GSD's as well... Malinois I think are also dangerously close to that line of being able or likely to snap MORE often than a Boerboel... IF that was the case...IF they were a Ticking Time Bomb I do beleive the Farmers in BOTH countries of Origin (who use the breeds for Livestock and FAMILY guardians) would have likely dismissed the breed before it even became recognized.

Sad to see that you assume this about breeds you know little about because they are new to you and large.

 

I'm still not sure why you consider them ticking time bombs? Temperment? Please clarify..