I Can't Tell if Duke is overly aggressive or just defensive.

Every time I take the boys to the dog park I have been monitoring Duke closely but I'm not sure if he is actually being aggressive or just overly defensive. I don't worry about Freckles at all. Every time Freckles meets a dog he drops down on his front elbows, butt in the air, tail wagging, wanting to play. Duke on the other hand will stand straight, ears slightly back waiting for the other dog to react to him. It's like he is saying to the other dog "Want to play or fight, it doesn't matter to me." If the other dog launches into a play mode Duke romps off happy to play, but if the other dog snaps then Duke retaliates in kind but more in the mock aggression where it looks and sounds bad but neither dog actually making contact. When a minor confrontation occurs, as soon as I call Duke he lopes away in a happy smiling mood as if nothing had happened. He always breaks away when I call.
We go to the park twice every weekend for at least an hour at a time. Last weekend I counted 70 dogs at the park but at 15 acres they are spread out.

I have learned to anticipate when I see a possible conflict so I can distract Duke away before any meeting occurs. For instance, when other dogs ahead are growling at each other then we bypass that group. If I didn't Duke would head right into the middle of it.
If a dog runs up to Duke in a playful mood Duke goes off to play without hesitation.
It's almost a Jekyll and Hyde personality but with a rather nice Mr. Hyde. Can anyone tell me what's going on in that canine brain of his.

 

I think it sounds like he is acting appropriately. He stops to wait for the other dog to see what the other guy's personality is like. He wants to play but he's willing to stand up for himself if necessary. Since you can always call him away, that's a very good thing. And since he goes for the showy stuff and doesn't jump in and REALLY fight, that sounds appropriate as well.

When he stops and is waiting for another dog to approach, is he staring at the other dog head on, or standing sort of sideways or head down and avoiding eye contact? Nala freezes when she sees a dog she is unsure of and waits to see what they will do. But she's more of a run away dog than a snap back dog. So is Bonnie. But Bonnie WILL stand up for herself if pushed or if she can't get away.

I think it sounds like this is just Duke's personality. With your excellent monitoring and intervention, hopefully you won't have any problems.

 

My old dog was like that, unfortuantely alot of people took that to mean she was mean and would pull on their dogs collar/harness things and then the dogs posture would go into "fighting mood posture" (something like that,asked some vet about it) It is more likely to happen if the dog wears a harness (what they said) so the other dog thinks oh no I need to defend myself type thing, I don't think I am explaining it that well though.
But other friends dogs do it to I think it is just the way some dogs are, but it isn't bad.
Luther will sit with his tail wagging when he sees someone.

 

Sounds to me like Duke is an alpha dog. He's acting appropriately for the roll. he wants to make sure that the otherdogs are going to be submissive or challenge him.

I would keep a close eye on him and call him off in confretation occurs or you feel like there isn't good chemestry there.

 

Sam,
I forgot about the alpha role. Duke for the most part "allows" Freckles to be the alpha at home. He will allow Freckles to take a chew bone away from him, he lets Freckles assume a position next to me on the couch, and in general he defers to what ever Freckles wants. I know he is intentionally doing this because whenever they mock play fight he can toss Freckles over on his back in a wink and hold him there by his throat as if to prove to the little squirt that he really is the alpha dog.
Maybe all of his "patience" is released toward other dogs at the park. Maybe it's like "I have to take all this s**t at home but I don't have to here!"

 

What you might THINK of him as "allowing" Freckes to take things away, and be next to you, isn't quite what you think.

Initially Duke is ALLWAYS alpha. PERIOD. He rewards Freckles and "allows" him to do certain tasks. At his disgression.

Smokey would allow Char to take his toys as an "offering" so to speak of freindship and loyalty.

At home he see's no reason to be defensive, or scared of competition for top dog.

At the dog park, he's making sure ALL the new dogs KNOW he's top dog. He'll play with them if they take on a submissive roll, But if they try to challenge him, he's going to assume the alpha roll, and fight for it.

 

HELLO! I'll jump right in here... You've seen dominant behavior in Duke...this is the "posturing" he's exibiting at the park with new dogs... He only postures, no hackles in fear or defense and he's not actively growling or even looking eye to eye I would imagine. My monty is like this...he's aggressive in that he doesn't allow much time for a dog to submit to him before he starts in... Mounting is a more aggressive show of dominance and that is usually what your stranger dog who is dominant as well is likely going to try with Duke... So strange dog tries mounting Duke and your "mock" spat between dogs happen...basically it's about respect at this point...Duke expects respect as alpha and will argue to get it...

NOW outright aggression is VERY different... Honijade is outright aggressive with other dogs where she does no type of posturing whatsoever. She simply runs up on them...mounts at the shoulder (that's as close to posturing she gets) with the bigger dogs and with the smaller dogs the first thing she does is roll them... Basically like mounting at the shoulder only with the smaller dogs she HEAVS to roll them over to stand above them...only...no standing on her part...her teeth come out by this time... On leash we can keep her away...but no ammount of obedience curbs her and she'd bent on this behavior with other dogs... Not exactly for any kind of respect but more as a display that she is tough crap and doesn't want the company of other dogs. Monty she doesn't do this with...he's also been posturing at her since she was small...he loves playign with her but WILL posture from time to time...

Duke is top dog...

On thing too is that alpha rolls in domestic dogs are often situational...someone posted about this on this very board a long while back... What you see at home is not an accurate view of the dog and his motivation and behavior out at the park with strangers...

Duke is not acting out of aggression or defense... DEFENSE is charactarized by hackles, lips pulled back, ears back and eyes squinty... That would be the FIRST sign of a defensive behavior on it's way... Generally defensive dogs are shy dogs and would not approach a strange dog much less approach one with an upright and brave posture.

 

I agree that Duke's behavior is dominance rather than aggression. But at the same time it sounds like he's defering to you as pack leader, both at home and at the park. That's great. I've seen too many dogs that are pretty well behaved at home, but turn into bullies out in public.

 

He sounds exactly like my dog. Ranger will put his ears back, and his tail at alert when another dog comes up, and if the dog wants to play, his butt goes in the air, his tail wags, and he runs off happily. If the other dog isn't quite as playful, he snifs their butt and is usually happy to go off with me, if not, I make him. He thinks he is my knight in shining armor at times

 

kumas exactly the same as duke too. if a dog is nice to her she will be nice back. if a dog isnt nice, she wont stand for any BS from the dog. i can usually tell which dogs will be a problem. ive also managed to get her to come back if other dogs are having fights near us. once upon a time she use to run off and get involved but now she freezes as soon as i say 'stop'.

lil96, almost every dog fight i have seen has been with dogs on leashes. most dogs feel very threatenened when they are leashed and they are approached by another dog. i always let kuma go if an unleashed dog comes up to her if she is leashed. there is no way i can get the other dog to go away so its my only choice.

 

i have noticed the same thing too. my old dog (an australian shepherd) was the same way, when i finally figured out what it was, i would drop the leash, and this dog, who we had always thought never got along with other dogs, would start wagging her tail and was very happy to see the other dog. we have worked on ranger though, so that he is not threatened even on a leash.

 

i cant take my buffy out in pulic at all she goes nuts at the site of another dog no matter what there doing.

i got her at 8 weeks and at 10 i took her to work with me where she decided to attack a full grown lab (my bosses dog) so she was banned from work lol

to fix this and for some other reasons i got bruiser at 10 weeks so she could see other dogs and socialize but she attacked him everytime i turned around really hurting him.(bruiser is anything but interested in fighting i can take him anywhere)

eventually she got used to bruiser even though she still bullies him sometimes .i took her back to work a few months ago and i held her when the lab approached and they seemed to be getting along but as soon as i stood up she attacked him

ive learned to live with the way buffy acts but what the hell ill ask is it possible to train her to be friendly with other dogs ....keep in mind i cant really try making her play with other dogs because she can really hurt them i thought of muzzling her and putting her with friends dogs but damb thats kinda harsh isnt it?

 

maxkicker,
For that kind of a severe agression problem I would consult with a behavior specialist. In my local yellow pages under Dog Training there are some ads that say "Agression specialist". Check your listings for something similar and talk to the specialist first and perhaps obtain some references.
The "Dog Whisperer" on the National Geographic Channel, Cesar Milan, has "cured" several really bad agressive dogs so there is hope indeed, no matter the age of the dog. I would be concerned about liability issues that might arise if your dog attacks and hurts another dog.
Keep us posted if you find a specialist.
Good Luck

 

i will deffinently look into that. i dont get out much cause im working alot to build a new business but as soon as thing are going better for me i will surely do that id love to be able to take buffy out and not worry

i had some ppl over this weekend and they had small kids with them. i was really confused by this but when the kids aproached her she ran away and hid downstairs other than that she loves ppl unless another dog was around you wouldnt think she had a nasty bone in her body..

ps. the vet told me most pits are like that kidna y i just accepted it

 

NEVER expect a pit to get along with other dogs... EXPECT a pit to respond to obedience so that you can take her out in public on leash... NEVER expect pits not to fight and I really hope they are not left alone together un-attended... NEVER allow one pit to bully another it won't last like that forever...rarely does it and when it doesn't...well No one wants to go there.

Pits should never be shy and likely your pit was badly bred and needs to really get socialization... I hope I don't sound harsh...but decided to respond quickly...and to the point... Your female could very well turn into a fear biter if you do not get her aggression and fear under control. It is VERY possible to OB train them to interact with other dogs on lead but never off and never expect that it will go fine... ESPECIALLY considering her past...

I would go on the Pit Bull board and inquire as to what you should and could do to help in your situation... I hope my to the point post doesn't get taken as anything but stating the facts... I hope you can get it under control and MANY people out there know how to deal with this stuff...especially in pits... Sooo...find some pit people out there to visit with...

I'd be happy to visit about multiple dog households and pit bull dog aggression if you want to drop me an email... or start another thread...

 

maxkicker
It's true that many pits are naturally dog agressive, however, even dog agressive dogs can be trained to behave polietely around other dogs. I'm struggling with it now..it's a lot of hard work...the more obediance work the better! She may never be able to play off leash with other dogs, but you should be able to go in public with her without her acting wild. I agree with duke's dad...see an agression specialist or a trainer that has experience dealing with dog agressive dogs.

 

i do leave buffy and bruiser alone all the time there best friends hes not like any other pit he is just like that cartoon droopy just lays around without a care

when i say she bullies him i mean if he has a toy hes playing with she will walk up to him without growling or anything and just take the toy .he doesnt even try to keep the toy im not a trainer or anything by far lol but i used to be like buffy NO! and give it back to bruiser but by then he wants nothing to do with the toy and he goes to sleep lol

i was still thinking about y she ran away from the kids and it accured to me she has never seen a human child b4 that i can think off maby she was confused or just havin a bad day

anyway i totally agree with all of you and i will look into it as soon as i get a chance

one last question guys i am keeping a puppy from her litter and my girl friend can spend some time with it cause its small (vickie my gf cant handle buffy because vicks only 5ft somethin 85 pounds buffy is too much for her) but she can train the pup because i uterly failed at training buffy

im sure she can handle potty training it but can u guys give me a few important sugestions on how to get on the right foot with having a well rounded pit thanks alot guys

 

You bred Buffy??? How old is she? Do you know how many pits there are in shelters??? How many are euthed EVERY day or EVERY hour for that matter?

There's a saying with dogmen and bulldog owners of all kinds... it's
"never expect a bulldog not to fight" sometimes it takes years for them to turn on sometimes no time at all... Your dog is dog aggressive and to leave her alone with another dog is irresponsible!!! if you can't handle her you should not breed her and should not have bred her...

YOU need to take your dog to a trainer and listen to comments people make on this board regarding APBT's and temperment and fighting rather than saying she's a pit but not really...

Your girlfriend needs to take the dog to obedience, puppy class first and then on to others... You need to crate train all the dogs or one of these days you'll LIKELY come home to a bloody mess and hopefully NOT a dead dog...but it's HIGHLY possible... Even good dogmen and women lose dogs to "yard accidents" let alone situations that you put your dogs in...

Are your dogs registered at least?

 

One more thing... if you don't know enough about pit bulls to assume that what your vet said about normal behavior is right and then decide..."what the hell" and ask a message board about it...you shouldn't be breeding...

Sorry for coming down but HAVE YOU SEEN THE DOGS IN RESCUE???

 

sara, you always have such a negative attitude towards dog aggressive breeds.