Innoculations / Antibiotics causing epilepsy?

Hi everyone

I have a question. My five year old Border Collie had her annual innoculations a few months ago. The next day, she was very listless, so I took her to the vet who could find nothing wrong with her, besides a slight temperature. He gave her a course of antibiotics "just incase".

When she had finished the course, the night that she finished them, she had an epileptic shock. This is the first one that she has had, and has not had another one.

Now, could any of this be related? Has anyone heard of epilepsy being caused by innoculations / antibiotics. I read up on epilepsy and it did say that it can start in dogs when they are around 5, so it could "just be that".

However, a friend of mine is convinced that it was the innoculations "they are awful and I refuse to have my dogs done again...". Now, before I go to that extent, I would like some other opinions. There is also a vet that does homeopathic innoculations - not sure what that is, but it could be an option?

My dogs go everywhere with me - camping, hiking, etc, so not innoculating them is not an option, unless I plan on leaving them at home from now on.

Any ideas??

Thanks

Jean

 

I havnt heard of antiobiotics or innoculations giving epilepsy but have heard and had experiece with reactions to shots. Wylie had a very bad reaction to kennel cough a few years ago, so I dont give it anymore, because she really isnt exposed much to where kennel cough is exposed. but she does get the rest of her shots.

 

Yes, the vaccinations could have caused the seizure. We WAY over-vaccinate our dogs. The yearly boosters are NOT necessary as one shot gives immunity for at LEAST 7 years - see duration of immunity info here: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-VAC-LEGISL.HTM

Here is a very informative site about seizures, including what can cause them: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/site_map.htm

Here is a quote from the book "Current Veterinary Therapy XI", which is a standard at most vet schools:

Check out this page: http://www.weim.net/homeovet/English/Vaccine.htm

And here is Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccination recommendations: http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

Another good page for vaccination protocols and information (with links about halfway down the page to other very good pages as well): http://www.tollwest.com/vaccine.html

 

My in-laws have an inbred pet store shih tzu. They have to take the dog into the vet a day before innoculations to have an injection of some sort to counteract the side effects of the vaccines.

The dog has become very ill from vaccines (they weren't able to determine which one, or ones, in particular) and has had siezures!

Now that the dog is older, they go in only once a year so it isn't such a hassle --- but when the dog was a puppy, it was a mess! With one set of boosters - I thought they were going to loose the little thing because it was so sick.

Check with your vet about epilepsy!!!

I personally have had an experience with epilepsy. Our golden used to have a couple of siezures a year. The first few were the scariest. After a while, I would time them, keep a journal of what activities were happening around that time, what the dog ate...... anything that might help me see a pattern. His siezues lasted only a few minutes and as the years went by, there were only 3 or 4 a year. Not enough to warrant medications (thank goodness).

I eventually saw a pattern. When there was an excessive amount of activity or stress, his brain overloaded and he would have a siezure. Things that overloaded him were parties at our house or being boarded. So, I never boarded him again, and we were very careful to slowly let him join our parties. He stopped having siezures altogether when he was about 10 years old.

 

Why would they keep vaccinating if the dog has such bad reactions to vaccinations?? Once a dog has reacted badly to a vaccine, they should NEVER get that one again. You can be excused from mandatory ones for this reason as well.

 

Well, I think they felt that because the dog needs to be groomed they needed the bordetella (sp?) and rabies is required. The vet was also selling them the lymes, giardia (sp?) as "add-ons". The dog didn't need these vaccines - it lives in the house and is on a leash in the yard when it goes outside to relieve itself!

I honestly don't know why they didn't change vets and try another type or brand of vaccine! Probably because they are older folks and are sort of set in their ways - even though I think their vet is a jerk for selling unnecessary vaccines!

I do know that certain breeds of dogs are more prone to reactions from vaccines. It's probably from too much inbreeding and poor bloodlines!

 

It's really silly that they require bordatella for grooming and boarding. If it worked, then shelter dogs wouldn't all get kennel cough! I know foster people who vaccinate every 3-6 months for bordatella because their dogs catch kennel cough from their fosters. They just keep vaccinating more and more and more and the dog keeps getting sick - go figure! I have never vaccinated for kennel cough and I have had fosters with kennel cough and my dogs have never caught it. I know several people in our group who have been fostering for years and don't use the kennel cough vaccine and their dogs have never got it either. I gave the bordatella nasal vaccine to my foster puppies last month, so they were shedding live virus for the next several days - and my dogs never got it.

 

Just wanted to mention here, with bordatella....it doesnt cover every disease that can cause 'kennel cough' just bordatella which is the most common (parainfluenza, adenovirus and distemper also cause 'kennel cough') and whether a dog comes down with URI depends also on the dog. I had one dog that was asthmatic that would get it if another dog with it so much as looked at her, she ended up getting the vaccine about twice a year from about 5 or 6 years old up until the last couple of years....she was PTS at almost 17 due to bladder cancer. Other dogs I had in the house when she had it never got any symptoms of it, they would all start with a full set of vaccines for everything when I first got them and then it would be around 3 years in between...sometimes longer.

With boarding kennels and groomers etc, the policies are usually geared to give all dogs some protection, theyre not all on healthy diets (which Im sure youll agree that does makes a difference) and some dont have good immune systems for a variety of reasons. The vaccine does work for the infection it covers, it doesnt always stop the infection completely but the chances are that if a dog does come down with an infection it will be much milder than it would have been had they not had the vaccine.

Theres a lot of causes of seizures in dogs and while theres no doubt that over vaccinating can cause them so can certain foods, sometimes its genetic (two types of seizures in dogs, less common than idopathic epilepsy have been discovered), some breeds are more likely to have seizures....Miniature Poodles, GSD's, Pointers among others. Sometimes an immediate seizure will occur within minutes or less of a dog getting vaccinated, this is not the same as vaccines given over a period of a couple of years resulting in seizures, this is due to anaphylactic shock where the effects can range anywhere from basically feinting to coma, seizure and death, this is why dogs that are known to have a reaction like this are treated with an antihistamine and steroids before being vaccinated, mainly its the Rabies vaccine (which from what Ive seen it is in dogs, FELv and Rabies are the ones Ive noticed it in with cats).

I think the idea of not ever giving vaccines to dogs again is great, however its not just a matter of skipping the shots, theres a bit more to it than that, titer tests cost more than the shots, unhealthy food is fed to dogs, theyre already seeing cases of distemper over here now in dogs whos owners read a little bit about adverse effects of vaccinating and decided not to have them done, a year ago when I came here the vet I talked to was concerned about this, he was right.
Like they say, 'just enough knowledge to be dangerous'..!!!

(not meaning you Jamiya, or anyone in here, I know you have everything covered but theres a lot of people around who only bother to read up on parts of it and some who make a diagnosis themselves without ever even consutling a vet, either homeopthic or traditional).

 

I don't think I would totally skip shots. If I had control over puppy shots, I would follow Jean Dodd's protocol or the Tollwest kennels protocol (1 or 2 shots for distemper and parvo, most likely given in separate shots a few weeks apart), and then a rabies shot at 6 months. Maybe boosters at a year, but probably not. And that's it!

I know adult dogs are less likely to get parvo than puppies, but Nala's last parvo shot was at approximately 16 weeks and she didn't get it when I had the parvo pups, so she must be covered. I don't do titers.

 

What the major concern is that people are reading up on the dangers of vaccines and not getting any at all which from what Ive read myself is fine if your going to titer test, at least with distemper and parvo.

I agree with your protocol though, I remember back in the 80's in UK, my vet then was telling me that distemper vaccine wasnt necessary every year, I think he had come up with once every 5 years to be on the safe side but I dont think they were even testing or questioning vaccine protocols then, parvo hadnt been around that long at the time.

I can say that based on personal experience Ive never seen a dog over 2 years old with parvo whether they had puppy vaccines or not, I have heard of one or two old dogs that were suspected of having it. Years ago they used to vaccinate every year against Corona virus, its now shown that its only a puppy disease and is not usually a killer, its not necessary after the one year booster.

 

Yeah, if you are not going to get ANY puppy shots, you have to be very careful about where you take those puppies. You can't just trot them out to the dog park or the pet store and then be shocked when they get sick. Of course, you can't do that immediately after a vaccination, either. People don't understand that a shot can take 2-3 weeks to stimulate immunity, and if there were still maternal antibodies present it wouldn't have taken effect at all. That's why vaccinating earlier is not the solution either.

With my own puppies, I would probably also use homeopathic nosodes if there was any danger they had been exposed to something. The kennel cough nosode has been shown to actually prevent dogs from getting kennel cough during an epidemic at a boarding kennel, whereas almost all the dogs who got the bordatella vaccine got sick.

 

What exactly is that Jamiya? Wouldnt mind looking into that, I didnt know there was anything around that could actually prevent it completely.

Thanks.

 

Here is a brief introduction to nosodes:
http://www.kitsnk9s.com/NatCAREHome.htm and click on "Vaccinosis and Toxicity" in the left navigation frame. Then you can click on the "Homeoprophylaxis - Nosodes" link. You can also explore the question of heartworms here. This is an excellent site and well worth exploring.

Here is a giant article on using homeopathy to prevent diseases: http://www.drpitcairn.com/talks/vaccine_alternatives.html. It starts out talking about humans but animals are discussed further down. The section on canine distemper has a nice story about a vet trying it out who exposed two puppies and even injected them with the virus and they were fine.

Here is another article: http://www.miccant.com/Informer/Informer012006.htm

Shirley's Wellness Cafe has a lot of links: http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nosodes.htm

Homeopathy can be confusing because the remedies come in different potencies and the dosing is unusual compared to conventional medicine. Many vets also get it wrong. You will also find a ton of conflicting information, partly because homeopathy is supposed to be tailored - both dose and remedy - to individual patients.

I am going to start using the heartworm nosode to more actively protect my dogs from heartworm. They have not been on preventive for over two years now, and I have been relying on overall health, diet, and garlic tablets to deter mosquitoes. I have them tested twice a year, but I have been feeling increasingly nervous about it so I am going to start them on the nosode as soon as it comes in the mail. This clinic has had good results with using it for prevention and they are in Florida which has a LOT of mosquitoes:
http://www.nbwi.org/holisticheartworm.html. I am going to use the nosode in 30C, once a day for a week, once a week for a month, and then monthly after that. I'm not sure if next year I will repeat the whole protocol or just continue giving it monthly - I will research it before then.

 

Thanks for all this info Jamiya, I will look at the sites (lifes a bit crazy here right now but Ive bookmarked them).

This is why Ive never got into learning much about them, with working in hopsitals where only the usual drugs etc are used, keeping up with all of them....just hadnt really had the time to put into learning about homeopathic treatments, and like you say the vets arent all clued up on them either, the way they are altered to suit the patient, its a little confusing....Ive done a little reading on it since working at the local shelter here as they are using them when they can, like theres something they give to all the dogs prior to going in for surgery as it makes the healing process faster (for sterile surgeries, they dont use it if dogs have been bitten and they need to drain wounds....cant remember the name of though, begins with A , my friend has also used it before going in for a minor surgery on her inner ear, the healing time was supposed to take about 10 days, with taking this 'item' she was fine after only 3 days (shed had the procedure done before, said it was really painful afterwards....not the case this time though).

Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

You might be thinking of Arnica. A common protocol is Phosphorous before surgery (controls bleeding) and Arnica after surgery for bruising and swelling. Bellis Perennis is a good one to use after a spay - helps with deep tissue injury. Phosphorous can also be used after surgery for bad effects of anesthesia. Calendula is also useful after surgery to prevent infection, and it can even be used in a topical form directly on the incision, although there is controversy over that and it is rarely needed anyway.

For people, if you know you are going to be overdoing it in some activity, you can take 3 dry pellets of Arnica 30C before the activity and 3 dry pellets after. My son did this before he went on a scout shotgun shooting campout. He shot over 40 rounds and experienced NO soreness at all.

 

Your dog is well-protected. He doesn't need yearly boosters. If you're not convinced and don't mind spending the money, you can get a titer done next year for whichever disease you are worried about. Most of them are usually not dangerous for adults dogs anyway. Also, a lot of cities will accept a rabies titer in lieu of vaccination if your vet will also write a letter saying your dog experienced an adverse reaction to the vaccine.

Think of it this way - do YOU get a measles shot every year? Nope. Are you afraid to go to the mall or the local park because you might get measles? Nope.

Currently, as some of the links I posted before show, there are tests which show that vaccines are lasting for at LEAST seven years in dogs. The studies are on-going so that duration could get longer as the tests proceed.

 

Arnica....thats it, thanks.

 

There are a couple of problems with relying on titer testing. First of all, titer levels aren't always indicative of immunity levels. A dog with a high titer may or may not have better immunity than a dog with a low titer. Of course, a dog with no titer probably has no immunity.

One reason for this is because titer testing only measures humoral immunity. It doesn't measure mucosal immunity or cell mediated immunity. You really need all three types for a dog (or cat, horse, human) to have adequate protection against disease.

A titer test shows that the dog was exposed to a particular disease causing organism, and responded by producing antibodies. It doesn't show that the individual cells also mounted a response, and 'remembers' the organism, or how to protect itself from future exposure. There is a test to measure cell mediated immunity, but it's difficult and very expensive.

Working in a kennel/grooming shop environment, I have to add that the major reason we ask that dogs be vaccinated against kennel cough is mostly one of liability. Should a boarding or grooming dog become ill with kennel cough and the owner decides to sue us, we have to be able to prove we have taken every reasonable and customary precaution available in order to defend ourselves.

Yes, there are viruses and bacteria we cannot vaccinate against, and that cause kennel cough. But if we can't state that we require whatever protection there is available, we can't defend our case as easily. Judges and juries aren't interested in excuses. And judges decide cases based of case law. If the judge feels that vaccinations are reasonable and customary, and you can't demonstrate you took reasonable and customary precautions, you lose.

 

Shine - you are absolutely right! Bordatella vaccines are required pretty much for liability reasons. I do have to respect the groomers and kennels for that! This is such a sue-happy society - they need to take all reasonable precations.
We used to live in Cook and Will county. What part of Illinois are you in?

I am now in Lake Co. Indiana and our dogs are required to have a Lepto vaccine to participate in 4-H. Lake Co., from what my vet said has not seen Lepto - but other parts of Indiana have had problems with that virus.

I also discussed rabies with my vet - he is very conservative and explained that I could skip the vaccine if my dogs were absolutely house dogs and there was absolutely no possibility of anyone getting even accidentally bit at any time - but since we to take them out and about he recommended, for liability reasons, to get the vaccine. Besides, there are a few cases of rabies each year (animal and human) in Indiana.

 

Isnt it law there to have it done every 3 years? That goes with the license in California, you have to have a license if you have a dog, you cant get the license without proof of Rabies vax (so I was told by the city anyway when my dog was late on her Rabies....and if you dont have a license you get a fine).
There are some cases where a letter from the vet to excuse the dog from the vax will cover it but its usually older dogs or dogs that have some severe medical problem that would be made worse by the vaccine. The most cases of Rabies that I know of (according to animal control) in the area I lived in are bats, the ones they had and had tested were bats that had come mostly inside someones garage or actually into the house so any dogs in the house would be at risk....no?

I worked with a stray cat years ago that had all the symptoms of Rabies, then keeled over, seized and died, a womans dog had found the cat in their yard, the dog had been scratched and bitten but was vaccinated, had it not been vaccinated she could have been 'ordered' to board the dog for 10 days at her expense (some dogs are allowed to stay home for the 10 days, depends on whos dealing with the case)....unfortunately people are not generally vaccinated against it, I had open scratches on my hands from another cat and while working with the stray, it had been drooling a lot, I was also giving it oral medication, the saliva had got on my hands....that 10 day wait to find out if the cat was actually rabid was not fun !!!!