Just a Hello...

Thought I would pop in and say hello to all.
We have decided to let Elise keep Annie so now we have four dogs. Annie is the biggest handful of all our dogs, but she is getting better. I did a little digging and found out that although she just turned two..she has had at leaste four homes and that is not including the pound stays in between each owner. I keep wondering if she is thinking this is just another stop along the way or if she knows she has finally found home. She is neurotic about water..if I can't find her I check the bathroom first because she always stands in the tub staring at the faucet. If she is being too hyper, we often fill the tub with about 4" of water and she will play in that for a very long time. We usually end up making her get out. We took her to the beach last weekend and to a lake, the dog swam non-stop. She took in so much water that when she peed it was absolutely clear. The good thing about it is that Witt has been watching her and he will now get into the tub, (still relunctantly) when I call him. No more paws to the walls struggle to get him through the bathroom door! Yay! Elise will start an obedience class with her eiher at the end of this month or early fall, when she is done with that she wants to do agility with her and given her love for water we have been looking into a doggie diving club...does anyone know what that sport is actually called? I am also taking Elise to watch a herding trial at the end of the month so we can see whats thats like. Annie has extreme herding drive, the person who evaluated her said she would do awesome at that. I'm just not sure if thats a great idea as Annie will herd people...and it's something we are trying to teacxh her NOT to do. It is a challenge to say the leaste to get a dog at two years of age, there is so much advantage in getting a 9 or 10 week old pup!

I have pictures to post of her, but PhotoIsland won't do the link thing right now..not sure why. I'll post some later when hopefully it will be working.
Hope you all are well =)

 

Maiesy! Good to see you again!

It sounds like things are going well with Annie. I, too, am trying to decide if I should try Nala's hand (or paw?) at herding. I was going to do it at the beginning of the summer, but things got too busy. I have heard from border collie people, though, that once you turn a dog on to herding, you can never shut them off again! Given the ongoing cat-chasing struggles in our house, I'm not sure if I should let her try it or not!

I know what you mean about getting an adult dog versus a puppy. With Bonnie, since she is so calm, in a way it has been MUCH easier than raising Nala has been. But at the same time, she has many issues that I know she would not have if I had raised her myself from puppyhood. Just the difference in confidence alone is very telling, although it's possible that Bonnie was just born timid.

Great to have you back (even briefly) and we are looking forward to seeing pictures! Have you done a dogster page for Annie yet?

 

Hi Maisey, I was just thinking about you and wondering how everything is. glad to hear Annie is fitting in and cant wait to see the pics

honeybear

 

I have dogster pages for all of them ...but it says it's overloaded again and I can't access my pages.

Annie will take lots and lots of work. Right now we are just working on some basics. I have talked to a couple of people about the herding, but I get conflicting opinions. My question is always..If she learns the commands for herding..including being able to call her off and get her to stop...will that also work in a situation where she is trying to herd a person? Will honing the commands and skill make her easier to control...or will it make her even more apt to herd people? I think before we ever get into that I want to see how much control we gain with obedience and distraction work. The times she has done the herding of people always seems to be a protection thing first but the way she behaves when doing it is very much like herding. She saw three people walking down the street in front of our house at 11:30 at night and took off for the front yard, jumping the fence and then running around them barking keeping them bunched up in the middle of the road. She was only keeping them bunched until the man started kicking her, then she started nipping at ankles. The whole time this was happening Elise was screaming for the dog to come to her, stop, down, sit anything to try and get her attention and under control, but to no avail. Annie didn't hear a word. When I got there I tried the same, also to no avail. Shawn ran out right behind me and he was able to grab her by the scruff of the neck, once he had hands on her she stopped immediately. It was like she went "Oh..it's you" We were lucky the neighbors didn't report it, they were very mad and absolutely know nothing about dogs, they think she is viscious and crazy and should be put down. This happened shortly after we brought her home, since then she doesn't go outside without a lead on until the fence is completed. So while I understand the behavior...we need help in changing it, which is why Elise will be working with a trainer. I am sure this behavior is one of the why's..Annie has been dumped time and time again. She is filled with drive, very protective, high energy and high maintenace! We are hoping that we can make all that be a possitive thing for her...direct it, and in the proccess..Keep Elise..our teenager on track and out of trouble =)

 

Exactly! If you find out the answers to these questions, let me know! Although I DO know that the working border collies I have seen are absolute ANGELS - they listen to their owners quickly and easily. Then again, Nala is more stubborn and much less compliant than a purebred Border Collie is supposed to be!

Nala also goes totally deaf when she is busy chasing a cat, like Annie with the people she herded. It's actually quite a funny image, I hate to say. I'm glad they didn't report her. I know how scary it is to be herded by a dog that you think is being aggressive - I used to be scared of Nala when she was just a puppy!

When Elise has Annie under control, perhaps she can come train Nala for me. Nala is doing well, but I fail time and again at setting aside enough time to really work with her. Bonnie is also coming along slowly, again due to my lack of consistency. But I do have a trainer coming to the house now, which helps with the motivation!

 

Nice to hear from you Maisey. =P~

 

Hey Maisey so nice to hear from you! I used to be 3Dogsihave but we have added another puppy to the mix so now I am 4! Our newsest addition is a rescued border collie from a dump. Not sure if she is a mix or not but she is deffinatly alot of border collie and at 9 weeks she is trying to herd everything. Which is pretty funny with her toys. But anyway enough about us! Good luck with Annie and I hope all settle in once she gets through her classes!

 

Herding dogs that are properly trained will only herd on command. There are the dogs that have "Thick" skulls and have to be reminded and go back to basics every once in a while.

Herding is a sport for a dog with a VERY strong will to herd. A dog that only acts fairly intrested in it, usually ends up the problem dog.
But like I said, the proper training will usually yeild to a good herding dog that will not revert into herding your children, cats, and other animals.

You have to remember that you can't just train a dog to herd, then not keep up with it. Once you teach them, its a daily upkeep. NO just stopping and going to something else.

Cattle dogs live to herd. You can't take that out of them. You can train them to control their instincts, but its never going to leave.

Just remember its a great and fun sport to be involved in, but once you start, its VERY hard if not impossible to stop.

 

So Sams, if you don't personally have stock to work, it might not be a good idea to try the sport?

 

WEll, thats iffy. They do have trials where you take your dog and they provide the calves or sheep (and the cheap SOB's use goats)

But if you don't have stock. Its hard to train your dog. And like I said. I'ts a every day deal. IT takes ALOT of time Money and training. Smokey took 2 years before he could herd on his own. We spent probably 2500$$ training him. Now he just rides on the back of daddys truck, and stays at home. When we ride in the pastures I'll give him a "play time herding" and let him do it for a while. But its not calf season, and not time to work cattle so he's off until spring.
And let me tell you, if you don't burn that energy for at least 4-5 hours a day of straight hard playing and running. Ugh!!!!

IF its something you Really want to do. Find a farmer around your area that is into it, and hopefully he'll let you come out and use his livestock.

 

There's a guy about 45 minutes from here that starts stock dogs. He uses ducks and sheep. He takes clients and teaches you how to do it. I assumed you only went like once a week, like agility. Perhaps it is better if I don't try it...

 

I think Bonnie and Nala would be excellent at adgility or flyball!!!! That would give them a really good work out, plus something that would be easy at home!

 

Yes, Nala does agility. I am going to eventually start Bonnie in agility just for confidence building, but I am waiting for now. It's too much for me to take them both, with an hour drive to get there, an hour for each class, and an hour wait between Bonnie's class and Nala's class. Besides, that's my special bonding time with Nala.

I'm not sure how Bonnie will do in agility. She is very timid about new things. She also does not jump. She CAN, but she doesn't. I have to pick her up to stick her in the car.

 

You know how sometimes it is easier to teach a dog to do something first in order to teach him what not to do later? Like Dooley..I had to teach him to "speak" before I was able to teach him "Hush". I guess in my head I was wondering if teaching Annie to herd would make it easier to teach her when or what NOT to herd. I have heard some people who use herding dogs say yes that was correct..and others have said what you said Sams. I have horses and where I keep them there are ducks, chickens, geese, two cows and a host of other poultry type animals. I do not want her herding them. I have been successful in teaching Dooley and Witt to "leave it" when it comes to those animals, but Annie is different, perhaps because she hasn't learned to make myself or Elise her prime "above all else" focus. I don't think I would have too much trouble finding stock to work her on, there are several herding clubs around here and a five minute drive would put me into livestock area..it's just a matter of do I really have to or want to keep up with it once the skills have been learned. My main reason for wanting to do it..is to eventually teach her what she CANNOT herd. Perhaps the trainer will have some alternative ways to do that. This dog is not doing it because she is bored..trust me she is getting tons of excersise, it starts as a protection/gaurding thing, only when she is off leash. If she is playing in water..she has no interest in anything else, I truely think someone could attack me and she wouldn't notice if she were swimming. I think our main issue may be more along the lines of her desire to protect whats hers..and the way she does that once started looks like herding. On leash..she is excellent, she only becomes gaurdy if we have remained in one place for too long and she has claimed it as her spot..or if we are in a closed in small area. Like while we were at the beach, Shawn and I walked off the main route into a stairwell to have a smoke. Several people came around to use the stairs and she barked at them. She was not out of control, just warning them. In her old home she was not contained at all, she daily jumped their fence and would herd up the children and adults alike in the neighborhood. She only nipped when the person being herded would start kicking. That is how I ended up with her on such short notice, the neighbors finally threatened to call he police and she called me hysterical, so I went and got the dog. So Annie has been allowed to partake in this behavior quite a bit. Which makes it so much more difficult to break. The person who evaluatd her says she is displaying herding behavior..and he specializes in training herding dogs, so I feel weird dsagreeing with him, and it's not so much that I disagree..but I question her motivation for the behavior. I don't think it has been so much a desire to herd...as it is to protect/gaurd.
She is very protective of Elise. Elise was at the park with her and some teen boy tried to flirt with her..he sort of pushed at her shoulder playfully and Annie came unglued, she let him know in a very vocal way that he ought not touch Elise again. Of course..I was thrilled with that, lol, but it raises it's own issues and of course reinforces to me that her motivation in her behavor may be more about gaurding. OK I am done thinking outloud...yes I have been drinking coffee =)

 

LOL! Take a breath, Maisey....

I bet the trainer you are working with for Witt would have some good ideas for Annie. Is Elise going to work with the same trainer?

I'm sure you already know these books, but in case you missed one - good books for resource guarding issues are "Dogs are From Neptune" by Jean Donaldson and "Feisty Fido" by Patricia McConnell. Oh, and "Mine" also by Jean Donaldson.

 

Yes, same trainer. Elise has gone with me to some of Witt's sessions and she really meshes with the trainer as I do. The other trainer that works there is also awesome, more into absolute possitive training methods..and things seem to take longer, which would be fine with me, but with some of Witt's issues I didn't have time to play around. Lisa is a possitive trainer as well, but she is not against using some correction/punishment..example: When Dooley was suddenly starting to jump other dogs as they passed in flyball(because he didn't want them to get the ball) we arranged for me to be standing at the pass point and when he did it I immediately yelled "NO!" and hauled his little butt to his nearby crate where he got to watch everyone else play flyball but he wasn't allowed to. Boy did he get the message clearly and quickly. "If you can't play nice..you don't play" The other trainer ONLY uses possitive..no yelling, no correction like that. She would only reward good behavior and ignore bad behavior. Which works wonderful for many..I just don't have that kind of patience yet. Plus in that situation, I'm not sure the owner of the other dog would be all that thrilled about me ignoring my dog jumping hers =)