Kabuki bitten by rattle snake.

Yesterday was just flat out hectic.
I let the girls outside for their morning potty break and to run for
a while and play before we started doing some training. As soon as
they got to the bottom of the porch steps, I heard the rattling in
the grass. I didn't have time to call out to them or anything. Both
girls just pounced on it and began shaking and tugging with it. IT
ended up in two parts and they were shaking them back and forth. I'm
assuming Kabuki had the head end of it and as she shook it it bit
her. She whelped loudly and began killing it more. Then went to the
door and laid down.

This was all within a matter of seconds. I was so stunned I didn't
know what to do. I was trying to get Precious away, and it was just
crazy.
I rushed her to the vet and she spent the day getting injections and
under observation.
They gave Precious a new "snake vaccine" that is supposed to be for
rattlers and vipers.
Kabuki is doing good today. She's got some funniness in her hind
end, more on the left side. The vet thinks that its just temporary
and will go away.

Anyone ever had any snake bite experiences with their dogs?
Especially Rattle snakes? She's on a steroid cream for the bite
site and Rimadyl for inflammation.
She's not wanting to eat anything. I'm assuming that's normal, and
her stomach is upset. I'm sure mine would be._._,_.___


this is the website I got for the "snake vaccine". THey gave it to Precious as a preventative and Kabuki will get it later after she feels better. http://www.redrockbiologics.com/risks.html

 

OMG!!!
I'm glad that's something I don't have to worry over

 

I've not had any experience with snake bites, but I think I know which vaccine you're talking about. We give that out at work now, and we highly reccomend it for hunting dogs. I haven't had my dogs vaccinated with it, but I'm thinking about. Let us now how Kabuki's doing!

 

Yeah, they've been bad out here and summer just started!

This is the third snake we've killed in the past month.


She's doing good now. The vet said she didn't think the leg issue was from the bite. Thinks that maybe she could have sprained something while "wrastlin'" the snake. She went in for x-rays today and it showed nothing. She doesn't have any looseness or anything which is good. but was tender when they bent it at the hock.
I think she'll be ok.

Her chest is still puffy. and they lanced the spot on her shoulder to let it drain. Its yucky. But she's not bothering it. Precious is being her "mommy" and taking good care of her! LOL

 

OMG poor girl , Well i know she will make a full recovery she has a great owner .

When i read the topic heading i didnt really wanna have a look incase it was a sad ending but glad i looked now, Just goes to show that they would put there life on the line to make sure your safe.

Good on them for killing it but awful kabuki got bitten, I hate snakes i have only seen then in exotic petstores ooh my skin is crawling justthinking about them lol.

Big hugs to kabuki get well soon

Mike

 

Ohhhhh Goodness me :shock: :shock: :cry:
Thank god everything worked out ok...
Im with charmedagain, I hate them too.. They certainly do make ya skin crawl..Ewwww.

 

Glad to hear shes okay.
The only snake bites Im familiar with are Diamondbacks and Mojave Greens, ones venom is a hemotoxin and the Mojaves is a neurotoxin, with Diamonback bites most of the dogs did well but they are extremely painful, lot of swelling, sometimes theres some tissue necrosis, wed usually set them up on IV fluids as if the swelling is around the face or neck (most common area for strikes) then they cant eat or drink for a couple days, for painkillers usually they got morphine and they go on antibiotics......occasionally wed lose a dog through this venom but it was mostly in snub nosed breeds and if the owner didnt get the to the hospital quick enough, the swelling would interfer with the breathing.
The Mojaves were nasty though and I have to admit in 5 years there was only one that we managed to save, mainly thats because there is minimal(if any) swelling so often the owners would either not know the dog had been bitten or if they saw it because there was no swelling would assume it was a dry strike.
The one we did save was a Pit Bull and the guy brought her in immediately, she walked into the hospital and shortly after started staggering, wed hooked her up to fluids and were just about to start pumping in antivenin when she crashed (respiratory arrest), we got her back but...well to keep it short, she was in a coma from the Sunday evening until Thursday afternoon, she went home the following Sunday night, she was walking again but was very uncoordinated-......the guy brought her in about a month later to visit us, she wasnt back to normal, unbalanced and seemed 'spacey' but he said there were small improvements every day.

I havent heard of the vaccine, there are a couple of people around that do snake aversion training, theres one that works out of San Bernadino in CA, he has a great success rate Ill see if I can find a link.

 

Not sure what kind this was. i'm deathly afraid of them. I mean, I'll knock things over, and break stuff trying to get away from them!!!


A cop friend of min here in Victoria came over and she found pieces of it. From what she could tell it was problaby either diamond or timber. But it was so chewed it was hard to tell. We saved the head of it, and took it to the vets clinic. They sent it off.

Apparently this type was a hemotoxin in which the tissues and blood are effected. The blood will clot and necrosis sets in. Theres a really nice person on the boerboel board I visit frequently. THey've been alot of help. I belive he/she works in a Vet ER.

She still has a big knott on her shoulder and they lanced a small spot to allow it to drain. THey said it had gone down a bit, but I don't see it. Its very painful. They gave me some metacam to give her every 12 hrs. I really don't like using it. Its the same stuff I had for Precious when she had her surgery. It really zonks her out and she just sleeps 24/7. It doesn't seem to bother her any other time unless she bumps it or something. So I really don't want to give it to her unless she needs it.

She has started drooling alot. (And with me being such a worry wart, I bothered Dr. again! LOL) She said its normal. Dogs will salivate and respirate harder and more than normal when they are nervous or in pain.
SO I guess that just means more drool rags!! LOL.


The puncture area seems to look red and flakey. I've been putting the cream on it and putting some cool packs. Do yall think there is anything thing else that could help it? Maybe some hydro therapy or massaging?

 

Yep, pain will cause hypersalivation, panting, restlessness.

As far as what to do to make her more comfortable, to be honest theres been so many different opinions from different vets on that over the years, some say use cold packs some say dont, some say use cream on the area some say dont......I would just run it by your vet and see what your vet thinks.
The only thing I would say not to do is the massaging, thats due to the pain. I have been told by vets before when there is a lot of pus draining to just use warm water and very, VERY gently hose the area clean if the dog will tolerate it. Some wont like it but Ive seen some that seem to get some relief from it.

 

Holy crap! I'm terrified of snakes too! I hope she's doing better.

I think I've asked this before, but don't dogs get anti-venin? Just wondering...and the hemotoxin means the blood won't clot. In people, they can bleed out from the snakebites...rarely, but we get usually some work from the bite victims in the blood bank.

 

Dogs do get anti venin, at the last e-clinic I worked at though we didnt give it to the dogs that were affected by hemotoxins, they did well without it....you have to be careful with the timing as well, antivenin loses its effectiveness the longer its been since the bite, I think if its over 12 hours (maybe less) then its only something like 50% chance of working....something like that, Id have to check up on it again. We always used it on the dogs bitten by Mojaves though, on the Pit I mentioned we went through 4 vials of it, unfortunately at the time the vets couldnt get it as it was in short supply but we talked a local human hospital into selling us some, over $400 a vial....you should have seen the owners bill !!!

Hematoxins can disrupt blood clotting but in the cases Ive seen there hasnt been a lot of blood loss but what it also does is destroy the blood cells and tissue in the area of the bite, there can be permament damage from it but again in most cases Ive seen the dogs recover well, there may be some permanent damage done but I dont recall seeing anything that left a dog with a dissability.
Brown recluses (spider) are bad for that though, Id rather be bitten by a Mojave than a recluse, there is no anti venin for recluse toxin and Ive seen a couple of dogs lose their body parts after being bitten by one, what 'seems' to happen (and Im not like errr.....spider-ologist or anything) but from what Ive seen and be told by a couple of vets is the bite is usually not painful, there can be some initial swelling but then it goes down (which is what most pet owners have said...that they thought the pet was okay because the swelling had gone) but at this point the toxin is causing irreperable damage internally.....and then it swells up and opens up, is extremely painful at this point....one of the worst cases I saw of this was on a 6 month old GSD pup, by the time he was brought to the hospital a fair part of his lower jaw on one side had rotted away, we had to take out part of that side of his jaw bone. He went on to a specialist after the surgery so I dont know what they did.....if they did some kind of reconstruction or something.

My daughters friend was bitten by a recluse on the inside of her upper arm, she ended up having surgery there and lost part of the muscle in her arm.

 

glad ot hear kabuki is doing okay/
can someone telll me about not treating bites? I hav heard around here sometime sthey dont treat the bite depending on where it is. this is every vague, just something I remember hearing nay insights on this?

 

You mean not treating that actual location of the bite? The treatment for hematoxin bites are the bite areas are generally left alone but the dogs do need strong painkillers as the pain can be really bad and then antibiotics to head off any infection on top of the bite and if possible/if needed then IV fluids also. We never used to actually do anything to the bite site apart from very gently hosing the area to remove the gunk that drains. It didnt make any difference where the bite was though.
I have heard of some dogs have to have necrotic tissue surgically removed a few days later but Ive never personally seen any or worked with any where thats needed to be done.

With Mojave bites, sometimes you can even find the bite site, I remember a little daschund that got bitten by one, the dog had passed away on their way to the hospital, the owners had no idea what caused the dog to die but they had seen Mojaves on their property, it was the right time of year so we started looking thoroughly at the dog, we found a tiny spot of blood and tiny puncture on the nose so we were looking for the other fang mark, it was inside the dogs eyelid, no swelling at all though.

This is all based on what Ive seen myself and been instructed by vets with when working with snake bite dogs though, other vets may have different ways of managing the bites.

Sometimes snakes will give a dry bite, they dont inject any venom so all you might see is the fang marks and the dog is generally fine, maybe just a bit sore from the punctures, what Ive seen happen sometimes is that people will see their dog bitten by a snake but dont know what kind of snake it is and they wait until theres swelling before taking the dog to the vet, assuming that if theres no swelling then it must have been a dry strike....only turns out to be a Mojave bite.
baby snakes are the worst as it takes them a while to learn how to 'regulate' the amount of venom they inject.

 

Holy smokers, glad that there is going to a happy ending, poor snokums.
We had our experience back in September 2005 i think it was.

http://www.auspet.com/forum/about11918. ... t=pyrenees

She has since recovered and has the 3 inch scar on her nose to prove it. Had some sleepness nights then but pulled through.

 

OK, I'm not going back out in my yard...EVER! I guess I'll have to litter box train the dogs.

 

Do you have red racers out there? apprantly theyre great at keeping the venomous snakes away, keep down the rodent population and theyre harmless to people, very shy....they can still bite but from what Ive been told you would really have to be mean to one to make it bite you. (my friends words not mine)

 

I know that we have black racers down here...I chopped one up once before I knew what it was. The last snake I saw here was a garter snake. It had a big bulge in it from eating something but I still didn't go back out in the back yard for a few days. King snakes will eat venomous snakes too. I know they're down here somewhere, but I've never seen one in my yard.

 

Oh man snake fear running rampent here. I have no fear of snakes, and have been bit 2 times by rattlers. One was a southern pacific that was 9 feet long, it bit through the web between my thumb and forefinger causing some slight discoleration. The other was a mojave green that really only scratched my calf but caused a 3 inch burn like wound from the ejected venom, it was only about 2 feet long.

I am glad Kabuki is doing well, and praise your dogs for preventing the snake from getting to you.

Education wise, Mojave Greens have multiple types of venom ranging from Neuro Toxic, Hemo toxic, and a combination of both.
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic541.htm
http://www.vtc.net/~buffalo/mojave.html
Also not all Mojave Rattlers are green, and can be mistaken for a Pacific Rattler.

I wish people would have less fear of snakes and just learn to respect them. I have rasied many different types of snakes including rattlers and mojave rattlers and even sold venom to Loma Linda research facility.

 

Mike, do you have any updated info on the 'suspected' mutation of the Majoves venom ? when I left CA I was watching....is it Dr Sean Burns?? at Loma Linda and there was guy who had been bitten by a Mojave but had symptoms of both the neuro and hematoxins....they were talking about further investigation on it (I think they actually had the snake as proof it was a Mjove as they had killed it)...then I left CA and I havent kept up with it.

Also do you know the name of the guy in the area that does the snake aversion classes for dogs ? I cant find the site, cant remember his name (Im getting old I think :shock: )

Thanks.

 

It has not been documented but most venomnists believe that mojave venom is both Hemo and Neuro toxic. Which makes it the most dangerous snake in the US/North America.
Several cases of Rattler bites have shown the venom was attacking both tissue and the nervous system causing bit site necrosis and respitory function failures. Bite site necrosis is common of western rattlers typical of venom type B (hemotoxic). Type A (neurotoxic) venom attacks central nervous system actions causing heart, respitory, brain function failure and muscle spasms. Like a Cobra or a Coral snake.

Now they even call the Venom of a Mojave Rattler "Mojave Toxin" as a classification.