my little pitty

hi everyone, im new here. I have a 14 week old amstaff named Avary. She is white with large brindle spots. Too cute. She is very loving and loyal, but she is also very dominant. She was starting to growl at me (and even snapped once) when I tried to move her off her spot on the couch or bed. She is NOT food aggressive at all, but she is dominant like I said.
Well, I had a behaviorist (one of the best around) come to my house on Saturday afternoon to check it out. She said it will be no problem training her, but she was glad I took action now. She said Avary was trying to become the alpha and part of the problem was that I got her when she was only 6 weeks old. So, anyway, she did a temperment test and at one point Avary got really mad and flipped out, so the behaviorist 'alpha rolled' her. She held her down until Avary submitted. Then she put Avary through a mini-boot camp with sit-down-sit-down being the two commands she used.

Well.....Avary seems like a different dog. She is still the loving energetic dog I have had, but now she is more humble. NO GROWLING for the last two days, and she is not play biting at all either. I am so happy. The behavorist said Avary will probably forget and revert back soon and we will have to repeat the procedure, but eventually it will set in and be for good.

I am so happy.

 

welcome, sounds like Avery is a cutie. Glad you got a behaviorist to help you out. Could be her problmes stem from leaving mom too early. because from 6-8 weeks mom plays an important part in basicly discipline and socialization skills.

good luck honeybear

 

You may want to post for advice on the pitbull forum.

The only thing I would be cautionary about is alpha-rolling a dog. She is a puppy now so it may be fine but it can (at least some ppl believe) make a dog more aggressive. I would try to work with her without the alpha-roll.

 

good idea eliza, please go to the pit bull forum, they are the experts on PBs

honeybear

 

Is there a "crazy shepherd puppy" forum too! :lol:

 

I do not agree with the alpha roll. I think it can be extremely harmful to the relationship between dog and owner. I feel like the Alpha Roll will make a dog more and more defensive/tempermental! Even the people who originally came up with the idea of the Alpha Roll and recommended that maneuver in their books have changed their position on it some years later, but unfortunately people keep teaching it, and doing it.

 

I agree about the alpha roll. Most things I have read say that the alpha roll will make an aggressive dog MORE aggressive.

Puppy boot camp is a good thing, though. I use the sit-down-sit-down method still. Also look into NILIF - "nothing in life is free." Make your pup sit or down or do some other trick before she gets ANYTHING she wants - a toy, going outside, food, going for a walk, whatever. That goes a long way in establishing who is in control.

Some people say you should not let a dog on the furniture because they then think they are alpha. I don't agree with this either. However, you DO need to make sure the dog will leave the furniture on request. Some people only let the dog on the couch if they are first INVITED on the couch, and the dog can be asked to get down at any time. I read an example about how to do this once.....and I can't remember where. It may be an example used in "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" by Suzanne CLothier, but I could be wrong.


Jamiya

 

We are doing that with Sarge. He only gets up on the couch when we invite him and he gets down when I tell him to. So far, it is working pretty good. Though he will still try the "slink slowly un-noticed onto the couch" trick!

 

i have heard the standpoints of both positions on the alpha roll. Good...no...bad...and i wasnt very keen on the idea myself. well, it seems to have worked with my dog so far. The lady that came over ($75/hr) is the most respected in the city of Rochester and she said it needs to be done to dogs who have decided they want to be the 'alpha'. I trust her opinion, because she took me outside and showed me a dog she had just trained. A pitbull mix that only 2 mos ago was very aggressive and defensive. She commanded it too come out of the car, down, stay and even when it saw my dog it wouldnt move.

I mean, I am trying my best here with my dog. I will spend all my money just to make sure she is properly trained and becomes a great girl. I love her very much so all opinions are appreciated.
thanks

 

Hopefully by nipping this in the bud, you won't have a need for the alpha roll in the future. Then you don't have to make a decision!


Jamiya

 

I was told the alpha roll was not a good thing either. I think it comes from "THE OLD SCHOOL"

 

I wasn't sure what the Alpha Roll was so I did a little google search and found this.

http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm

 

It would all depend on WHY the dog is acting out aggressively.

This behaviorist deemed that this dog was being dominant...which would change the reasoning behind why the dog is growlling and snapping. This dog was doing it for control and domination....in "defence" of her high position of being on the couch or bed...she was also getting the reaction she wanted (backing away...puzzlement) so she kept doing it. I think for now the Alpha Roll is fine and in many instances asserting dominance over the dog is the best way to handle THIS type of aggression/dominance... HOWEVER... I think where most of you are coming from with your dislike of the procedure is that it is often over used and not used in the right context. If the dog is fixed by this but reverts back for a moment...forgetting who's boss...I think skipping the alpha roll is fine unless the dog throws a royal fit (keep in mind this is what spurred on the roll in the first place). I think that with many dogs it's easy for them to become defensive for their lives instead of for their position if WE as humans try to dominate tooo much. APBT's are notorious for being very easy to "over correct" in this manner... thus becoming fearfull and then acting out aggressively...for which the "Alpha Roll" will only magnify the problem and make it much worse... So...watch out with your pup make sure she feels safe at all times ESPECIALLY when dolling out corrections for her behavior...it's VERY easy to cross that line and not even know it... Keep in touch with your behaviorist...

One question... Has your behaviorist dealt with many APBT's? If not you may want to take a few minutes and see if she does know that often times the APBT's become fear biters because of overcorrecting...in case she doesn't know that...(she should know that as a behaviorist with good credentials).

I have my own 2 APBT's and Two Boerboels...just in case you were wondering... I post on the APBT forum too.

 

Jody: Good website. Very informative on a lot of training issues.

 

In that article you posted the link to it says "the only time a dog flips another on its back is to kill it." That is totally false. I have personally witnessed my older golden retriever turn my mini-dauschound onto its back and hold him there by his neck, not leaving a single mark on him. It was because he was acting too dominant.

And yes, she has worked with many Amstaffs and Pitbulls. She actually just trained and extremely aggressive one 2 months ago and it is a great dog now.

Like I stated, I was VERY hesitant about the alpha roll, but it seems to have worked and I trust this ladys opinion because she has years of experience and is very respected in western new york.

 

You have to go with your instincts then. We can't know exactly your situation. Although, I don't think he should need to be alpha rolled again. Especially since he has already made such progress. Now is the time to start some OB training with him to make sure he doesn't slip.

 

Sarah. I have been dealing with pitbulls from rescue with LITTLE OR NO obedience training for many years now. I run a private shelter and most of the time, I am alone with these dogs. I also own 4 of my own! all were shelter dogs with 0 training!! My "PetTherapyDog" has her CGC.
Some shelter dogs have tried to become dominant with me.
The answer is you having control over your dog.
I have had EXTREMELY GOOD LUCK with correction and reward!!
I never had had the need to alpha roll the dog.
And, yes, actually my behaviorist has a PHD from Brown University in animal behavior and many years experience dealing with pitbulls. I also have a dog trainer with many years behind him and EXPERIENCE WITH BULLY BREEDS as well as a good friend who is a pound keeper that deals with multiple stray pitbulls daily.
None of them recommend the alpha roll!!
But you know what I say? whatever works go for it!
Nothing is carved in stone.

 

So I'm not sure why you felt the need to post all of your behaviorists credentials and how many years you've worked with Pit Bulls and that they NEVER recommended the Alpha Roll...?

Either way some dogs need it and some don't... My point was that it's very easy to overdo correction with Pit Bulls and bully breeds specifically (didn't seem that you were disputing that...) Each behaviorist and trainer deals with dominance in a variety of ways. I've honestly never even heard of the "Alpha Roll" from any of the trainers I've been in contact with even online... I've personally only been involved in one dominance issue with a Rott and they did a sort of "down" exercise to assert dominance over the offending dog and this dominance exercise was done NOT as a correction but just as a trainin exercise (IMO the best way to do ANY dominance training). It's actually very rare to find true Dominant behavior in most pet dogs and it's exceptionally rare to find it in APBT's... Aggression maybe more so than dominance and most times than not an APBT that acts out with aggression usually does so because of some overcorrection/abuse...

It's an especially fine line with the Bully breeds because of how easily they become defensive of a correction... That was only my basic point...if the Alpha Roll works for this particular dog and trainer then go for it...

One thing I've learned in all my net research, animal behavior research and my own training is that you can never assume one training method will work the best for every dog...or every dog of a particular breed... Do what works best based on the dog not the breed OR specific trainer/behaviorist--no matter how many credentials they have.

 

There is a really good article written by a local dog trainer in my state. (Very high credentials) (It is a small local magazine) it is all about dog training methods and behaviorists, trainers, etc., another trainer wrote a rebuttal, both articles had good points to them.
If I can find the time to type both of them I shall. Unfortunately, I cannot access them via the internet.
When I first started getting into dog rescue, I hired an animal behaviorist that was recommended to me by another rescue person. Unfortunately, I did not check with her past/present clients and ask them what they thought of her.
I paid an awful lot of money for this person and after working with her for about one month I decided that I did not like her way of thinking. I felt that I was not getting anything for the money I was spending.
I then went on to ask some other people who they recommended and went with that person.
This woman was a dog trainer. She trained rescue dogs "Bully breeds" in a group setting.

I got the most for my time and money from her. My dogs learned and so did I. Her ways of thinking and training were so different from the first person I hired.
With my own dogs rescue and owned, I find that as long as I can use my tone of voice to get their attention, and use correction and reward (when they respond to the correction, that is more than enough).
As you are aware, the owner has to be committed to the dog and spend time learning how to train their dogs and what works for them.
Each case is different as each dog is different.
As long as the dog is learning and enjoying the training sessions again "Whatever works for you."