Nala is acting up

Hey guys. Funny how things with your own dogs can be so baffling.

Nala has been acting up lately. I know I have been too lax with her so she is feeling it's okay to ignore me. We are starting on some strict NILIF so that should help.

What I'm wondering about is this. She has been getting crabbier with the other dogs, mostly the fosters but sometimes with Bonnie as well. She has always been somewhat protective with food, but it is getting worse. She also guards "special" toys and treats, which I manage by never leaving them out.

If I am in the kitchen filling the treat bag and Nala is watching me over the gate from the next room over, if a foster comes and stands by her, she snaps. Today when being let outside, instead of watching me, she was watching the fosters. I opened the door and the fosters darted out and Nala snarled at them on the way by.

I saw her guarding the groceries from Bonnie while I was unloading the car. If I get the leashes out, she snaps if anyone gets too close to her. If the dogs are all resting and the cat walks into the room, one of the fosters will get up to chase and Nala will run at the foster while growling, as if to say "That's MY cat to chase, not yours!" She snapped at Missy when I was bringing the crate in from the car - and she never uses that crate!! It's only used to transport fosters, so what the heck?!

It's like if she even THINKS something good might be happening, she will snap at a foster if one gets too close. Sometimes she will even snap at Bonnie.

In general, she has not done this towards humans. But she has snapped twice on being woken unexpectedly - once at my son and once at me. When she did it to me, I put her in a down stay for a while. She also growled at my son once when she stole something and he tried to get it back, although he KNOWS he is supposed to "trade" her for stuff.

She is getting more and more rebellious. She will be 3 years old in May.

What do I do? Hopefully the NILIF will help with the disobeying humans thing. Do I ignore her behavior with the other dogs, keep managing what I can, and let them work it out? The others have always backed down, so far at least, so no fights happen. Or should I take an active stand somehow?

I will probably take a break from fostering until I figure this thing out.

 

Sounds like your pack order is getting disturbed.
This is a favorite article of mine.
Sue

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/canwehelp/others.htm

 

Dogs reach social maturity at 18-36 months of age. Behavior changes are often noticed around this time usually towards other dogs in the household. Maybe Nala is reaching social maturity?

I would try, to the best of your ability, to make sure her pushiness is not reinforced and to heavily reward her for any politness around the other dogs.

 

As usual, some very good and simple advice there from Nern.

It seems everyone is 'reaching maturity' at the moment.

The only thing I'd throw in is that I'd be wary about ignoring her behaviour with the other dogs. I do agree that 'most' of the time they should be left to work it out, but by doing that with Floob he got alot worse.

Again, it's only my experience - When I 'leave them to sort it out' Floob just keeps going. Not vicsiously, but his growling got alot more frequent, and at alot more things he didn't like. It was deffenitly a case of 'this works with the dogs, they leave he alone, so it'll work with everything else in life'.
It sounds like Nala's already learned that snapping will get her what she wants, so I'd be inclined to step in and teach her another way.

Dogs eh :mrgreen:

 

How would you do that? What worked with Floob?

My agility instructor says I should grab her and throw her down to let her know it's not okay. She says Nala is a soft dog and will learn quickly. I have never noticed Nala being that soft, personally. I mean, yes she tends to be submissive (and pushy at the same time - go figure), but corrections do nothing positive - they only escalate things. My husband might be able to pull it off, but not me.

I have pulled out a pile of dog books from my shelves and am reading through them today. Suzanne Clothier is talking about evaluating the freedoms your dog has. If they are restricted - like not trusted in the house alone, etc - then you have work to do. But Nala knows when I am not home. What would make her decide she should not chew on things when she KNOWS there is no one home to correct her? She has started jumping the ex-pen that keeps her and Bonnie in the family room while we are gone. I always knew she could, but until now she has chosen not to.

 

Ranger used to do this with Snickers when we first got her. He still does it occassionally, but gets in trouble, so it is MUCH less frequent. He used to attack her if she got attention from someone and he wasn't, and he still occasionally does it if he knows that she has broken a rule (when she runs into the house, out of the back gate, into the garage...). For the rule breaking he will actually grab at her, at first he was seriously going after her, but thankfully, one word he has ALWAYS understood, has been "no." After telling him that loudly and forcefully a few times, he has basically stopped. Now when he attacks her after she has broken a rule, it is play.

 

I agree with Sue, sounds like it may be a pack/hierarchy problem. no adivce but good luck

 

I guess it's time to do some of the things I should have done long ago but was too lazy to actually implement. I consulted on the phone with Suzanne Clothier once, and she told me to stash treat containers all over the house, where Nala doesn't know they are - change containers and locations, etc. That way, she never knows if I have something or not. Every time I ask for a behavior, I *may* magically pull a treat from somewhere, so just in case she should obey all the time. That doesn't mean I have to *treat* all the time, as long as the potential for a treat (or toy or whatever) exists in her mind.

 

I know it sounds really rough, and you don't like the physical aspect of it. But thats EXACTLY what I had to do with Kabuki. She was jumping up, biting at my face and just plain trying to challenge my alpha status.

When she attempted to do it, I quickly grabbed her by the back of the neck, and pushed her to the ground and flipped her on her belly, all the while telling her "NO!!!" I did this twice, she has NEVER done it since then. This is pretty much what an alpha dog would do to her in a pack.

Next time you catch her doing it. especially if she's doing it to ward them off from you, just grab the scruff, push her to the floor and flip her and firmly tell her NO! And DO NOT let go until she relaxes and quits stuggling!! if you don't, she'll think she can wiggle out of anything. Kabuki was down for about a nimute and a half before she relaxed enough for me to let her go.

Don't SLAM her to the ground, but use enough force to make her go down... grab her legs if you need to...

 

This IMO is a very bad idea. Most importantly, you could get hurt. You could also damage your relationship with Nala. And if she's already feeling threatened, forcing her down could cause more of a negative association with the other dogs/people present. From what you've said above I think you may already feel similar to the way I do about it anyway.

I think NILIF will benefit with the people part of your situation. And this alone will probably get her response time back up there quickly. I also liked the idea of stashing treats in various locations so you can suprise her every now and then for responding. The treat stashing will also make it easier to reward her for being polite whenever she is around the other dogs.
If there are certain situations where you can predict that she is likely to become snappy towards the other dogs you may be able to prevent her reaction by distracting and redirecting away from the other dog ahead of time.
Having short training or play sessions with Nala and Bonnie at the same time might help too. Try to set up situations where you can make good things happen while the other dogs are present and Nala is behaving appropriately.

I agree with this too. The behavior can quickly become self rewarding as well so its a good idea to prevent the dog from practicing it over and over if possible.

 

I dont use food or treats when the behaviour problems are food based. I agree with sams on this.

Have you heard of DogStopper? Its an imprinting tool as opposed to a training tool, its what I ended up using with BJ for her dog aggression which was extreme. She was able to be off leash around other dogs once it was used and there were no problems.

http://www.poochschool.com/shopping.htm

(you have to scroll down the page to it)

 

I know it sounds Cruel. But your not going to hurt her unless you use too much force. One thing you have to remember, dogs don't think the way we do. So we have to become smarter than them, and use their language to show them what we want.

If she was in a wild pack, inevitably this is what the alpha would do to her.

I know some aren't going to agree, but a "no no" and pat on the paw isn't going to help in these situations. Precious, I've done it to her once. She is very dog agressive, now she isn't. The method shows them that YOUR boss and YOU let them know whats right and whats wrong.

I'm not saying, bodyslam them to the ground and force them to lay there for hours at a time with you on top of them crushing 'em. What I'm saying is use your body language and techniques to show her that YOUR the boss.
She will respond to your actions.

 

Most things I have read say that a pack leader does NOT physically dominate the other members of a pack. They lead by being quietly confident. They are not bullies, and they don't roll the other pack members.

We had a foster once that was very much the pack leader. She walked in, asserted dominace by thrusting her head over each dog's shoulders, both responded by looking away, and that was it. She lead by example. She followed the "rules" of possession as did both of my dogs, and we never had a single problem. The current foster, by contrast, is more of a pushy brat like Nala - hence the conflict.

When Nala was a pup, I was given the alpha roll advice and tried it a few times. Boy, did it make things worse. I think it puts me at great risk of a bite, and if she were to bite once I think it would be a long road in a direction I don't want to go.

It MIGHT work for my husband, but then she would be scared of him. When she is scared, she doesn't obey - she avoids. My agility instructor scared the crap out of her (on purpose) at one class, and it took several more classes for me to undo the damage. Nala would take one look at the instructor and head the other way and put on her "deaf ears" where you can see she knows you are talking to her but she is pretending she can't hear you.

Another strike against this approach is that she would KNOW I feel ambivalent about the method.

We also originally tried (on my agility instructor's advice) making Nala down-stay wherever I happened to be in the house. She wanted me to use a prong collar and pop her every time she tried to get up without permission. I actually did it for a couple days and it seemed to be working - until the third day when she got rebellious and started to fight back. My instructor told me she was testing me and I had to persevere. That's when I found Suzanne Clothier and her writings reinforced to me that my instincts were correct and there are better ways to train the dog. I started using all positive techniques and it worked very well.

I think I am going to go with the treat-stashing. I am also going to start structuring things more - requiring a down-stay at certain times, tricks for others, etc. I need to work on being totally consistent and not let my softy-feelings get in the way or make excuses for her. And I am going to try to set aside some time every day for training "fun" things, to keep her mind active and our relationship positive. I did this yesterday (she LOVES the clicker) and this morning for the first time in ages, she brought me her favorite toy to play tug. (Although I was a bit nervous tugging with the foster right there - tug can so easily go awry.) I think she has been feeling depressed and neglected. I'm sure she senses how much I like one of the current fosters. Who knows - maybe she even knows I am thinking of keeping her...

I do need to find a way to show my displeasure when she snaps over inappropriate things.

I also found a new homeopathic vet and he has prescribed a new remedy for her. It should follow well from the one that helped her two years ago. I find it very interesting that these old behaviors have resurfaced at exactly the same time that her old eye discharge has come back - 2 years after her last dose of a remedy that has probably been working all this time. I ordered the new remedy and should get it in a few days.

 

So she has an eye discharge.....infection? If so then that could be whats got her on a short fuse maybe? Eye infections are usually at the very least irritating or uncomfortable and they can be painful.

I think you should handle it the way that works for you, everyone has their own methods of training and behavioural modification, for me personally, the methods Ive advised on or given a favourable opinion of (not just in here but in general) is what has worked over and over again on dogs of all personality types for many years.

This is true with some pack leaders but not all and it can change, it depends on how the other pack members respond, the pack leader will pin down another dog that challenges his position beyond the body language, eye contact and gutteral growling, in some packs there will be no challenger until the leader becomes vulnerable for some reason and even then the leader may just step down so there is nothing physical in the challenger taking over.
As far as the human taking the position of leader, its not so much that your reprimanding the dog when it growls at another dog but rather youve set the rules and certain behaviours are not tolerated by you....

With my dog BJ, Ive mentioned in here a few times how aggressive she was with other dogs, there was no doubt in her mind who the pack leader was, that was made clear to her right at the beginning but it didnt interfere with the heirachy of the rest of the pack, with her body language or just a look the other dogs were out of her way....I could look at her and she went immediately to her crate.

9 times out of 10 its not necessary to use much if any physical force but now and again you get a dog that needs to be taken down a peg or two.

This could all be irrelevant though if it is related to the eye problem, and from how youve described Nalas personality she doesnt sound like a candidate for challenging anyone, canine or human, chances are youll take care of the eye and the growling will stop. Whenever there is a sudden change in behaviour health needs to be a consideration if you dont know exactly what the sudden change was caused by.

Good luck, I hope you sort it all out soon.

 

This is what I am asking about. Not tolerated...how? How do I show her it is wrong? Reprimanding her after the fact does nothing. Yesterday I tried chucking her outside, but my daughter was not informed of the plan and let her back in when she was jumping on the door. And if I go at her telling her no and grab her scruff she is soooo tense that it is alarming to me - I do NOT want her to resort to biting.

The eye thing started out as a mild infection, which I cleared up with homeopathy. Now she is back to the discharge that she had as a puppy - mostly in the mornings when she gets up I wipe it away and that's it until the next morning. It was gone for two years after my last homeopathic consult and now it is back with the same old behaviors.

Oh, she has always challenged everyone and everything, from the day we got her. But she is also submissive with other dogs and backs down right away - unless there is food or something very high value involved, and especially if she is on her own turf. She views every correction as a challenge to see what she can do to get around it. She is stubborn and way too smart for her own good. She is extremely rude and pushy.

 

I forgot to go look at this, and now that I have I need more info. What exactly is it??

 

Take another look at Clothiers book - Chapter 12 "Leadership is Action" under the section "Mine, All Mine". A situation that sounds somewhat similiar to yours is described involving one dog guarding the doorway and then the kitchen from another dog in the household.

 

No offense but I disagree. And from what I understand this is a common misconception which unfortunately continues to circulate. In the wild, dogs/wolves want to avoid physical conflicts. Why? Because walking around with injuries or infections would be a great disadvantage which could be detrimental to their survival. This is why conflicts are usually solved via intense body language rituals. What appears to be "pinning" is not forced but offered.

With enough intensity, intimidation and fear are enough to motivate any dog, its true. But there are far too many pitfalls.
When the consequence of a specific behavior is aversive, the chances of that behavior being repeated are reduced. This IS learning theory and probably has little to do with successfully establishing leadership. The same holds true for all animals not only those that live in "packs".

I have no problem with fact that some people have differing opinions than I do but this advice is simply dangerous. What happens if the person trying to force their dog down is severely bitten? What do they do if the dog is too large to force down?

 

The 'idea' of rolling a dog, getting physical, in say (for example) 95% of 'confrontations' between dogs the issue is resolved by using body language, eye contact and gutteral growls....and then its over, of the 5% that are not resolved in this way it will get physical, 95% of those confrontations that get physical will not result in injury, there will be pinning down, there will be grabbing round the throat, grabbing the legs, the head, with the other 5% there may be, most likely will be some degree of injury. In the wild this is less likely to reach that point but in the home with domestic dogs there are other elements that come into it, lack of space and being confined to a yard, kitchen etc, ongoing interference from the owner....its just my opinion but its based on the countless videos Ive watched of wild dogs and how they behave, watching even strays in packs roaming around the streets back in Liverpool years ago, and my own 'studies' Ive done with clients when theyve brought their dogs in to be sutured back up again after another 2 of their dogs have gone at it.

No you dont want to do something that will risk anyone being bitten. For me, most of the time I get the 'respect' or I should say Ive established a good base for a clear relationship with the dog, (my own dogs not in -kennel training dogs) within a day or two of bringing the dog in, the only dog in recent years that Ive had to put on its back was BJ (I was advised by a number of other trainers and a few vets to euthanize the dog by the time she was about 4 months old, shes now almost 6 years old and is a stable happy dog without a 'criminal record'), she was an extreme case.

As you know reprimanding for anything after the fact is a waste of time because they dont associate the action with the 'offense', I dont put dogs outside when theyve done something bad either unless its because I need a break from them for a few minutes, I will crate them but only if I catch them in the process of doing 'it' (whatever 'it' may be) and they are only in for about 5 to 10 minutes. It is important though that the dog is not shouted at while in the crate, once theyre in I say nothing and I never pull them out, the crate is their 'safe place' so you dont want to do anything to put them off, what Ive found with this is it actually reinforces thge security of the crate, they learn...for example your teenager comes home late and theres a 'heated discussion', most dogs dont like being around when humans are getting stroppy...all mine would go to their crates in situations like that, it works though if you get annoyed at them, verbally, they soon learn that the best place to be at that time is in their crate. You do it consistently and you dont even have say 'kennel' or physically put them in or close the door, the dog will probably be in before youve had chance to take a breath, they know you not happy by your body language and that look in your eyes and they will most likely stay in there until you say 'okay' or whatever release word you have.

I would not use food and treats as a reward for anything right now, not when negative behaviour involves food, it can actually escalate the problem (didnt get that from a book, thats just my experience). Avoid the situations that trigger the problem, i.e youve got a roast in the oven and the dog is hanging around the stove growling and snapping at any other dogs that venture into the kitchen, then I would cut off the access to the kitchen, say your filling the food bowls, the dog gets a little stroppy with the other dogs so you dont let the dog in while you putting the food out.
Your getting into the car and want to take the dogs with you, put the other dogs in first, if they all try and scramble in together there could be an issue, if stroppy dog is in first there could be some snapping when the others get in, I wouldnt normally say this if the dog in question was a definite alpha but I dont think she is, with an alpha they are usually content as long as they are first with everything.

So if you avoid situations that you know are triggers....dogs are habitual, they only have to do something one time and if they get the response (from other dogs people, cats etc) they like then why wouldnt they do it again...and again...and again, however if you take them away from 'that' situation so they cant do anything to get that response sometimes that is enough to stop the behaviour (this also works very well with dogs that chew up furniture etc), might take a little time but its a non-correctional way of doing, your also not making a big deal of any behaviour like you would be if you started giving a lot of praise or treats, more that your playing the whole thing down.

I should have been more clear on that, she doesnt sound as though she would 'seriously' stand her ground if it really came down to it, like she will push an issue and get away with while she can but if you really put your foot down she'll wimp out.

Use your voice like you mean it, sometimes a good stern NO is enough, dont give her the opportunity to be in a situation that causes the behaviour. Have you tried attaching a strap to her collar when your home, like the short leadh that just has the handle part, this would give you the chance to move her away from areas without having to grab her collar or anything, dont make a big deal of it, like if shes on the couch and you want her off, just casually walk up to her take the strap, tell her 'off', if she doenst come off straight away then walk away fromt he couch with her, when shes down let go of the strap, dont say anything (unless she tries to get back up in which case stand up and repeat what you just did, shell get the message). By giving her praise for getting down your making a big deal of it....which means attention....so your teaching her yet another way to get what she wants....instead of what you want.

On a final note (sorry) I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about this 'rolling' or 'pinning' a dog down, like some have a picture in their head that you just take the dog, any dog and flip it onto its back to assert your own dominance....(someone told me thats what they thought it meant, they also thought that everyone should do that with every dog they bring into the house), this is not the way it happens.

What sams was talking about with her dog, if this is the Mastiff, thats one powerful dog. If you have a dog living in your home, more so with a large powerful dog, especially if that dog challenges you then you need to be able to control that dog because when its fully grown and 'it' decides its higher up the pole than you are your going to have a really hard time physically fighting it off and could well end up with serious or even life threatening injuries, Im not suggesting for a minute that would happen in sams case, just generalizing. With BJ, she was only a few weeks old when she attacked me....I was a bit shocked I must admit, if I hadnt let her know very fast and very confidently that I was in charge there is no doubt in my mind how bad she could have been, she had to have been one of the most aggressive dogs Ive ever seen, luckily I had her so young and the problems were worked on.

Rolling and pinning down is not just something that is done in training, its done every day in animal hospitals, someone comes in with a dog that needs a tick removed, fairly painless procedure but the dog doesnt want to sit still while you do it, it puts up a fight so you restrain it, fights a little more so you 'get a better hold on it' and sometimes that means putting it into a position it doesnt want to be in....i.e laying on its side and pinned down, its the restraint, not so much the exact position, sometimes I think people put too much into the idea of pinning down (or rolling). And when its done right neither the dogs nor the techs are physically hurt . Theres nothing barbaric about it, nothing vicious, no brutality, theyre never 'slammed' onto the floor.

You make sure your dog knows whos in charge and your much less likely to be bitten (not including at times of illnesses, trauma etc) and much more likely to be able to control and prevent any bad situations that arise.

(okay...Im done )

 

Absolutely, you should never do this unless you have the physical strength and the confidence to pull it off, its not something you can get into and then give up. You do need to know some restraint techniques, were to hold, where to put your hands, unfortunately I dont think that this is something anyone can learn from a book, its something you learn over time....usually after youve had a couple of close calls, your reflexes become a lot faster.