need advice dealing with a rough puppy

Molly and her pal, Beau, get along really well. Molly definitely sees Beau as an equal and packmate.
Enter our newest walking/play buddy, an 8 month old yellow Lab named Jackson.
Jackson is large - not as tall as Molly but taller than Beau. Jackson probably weighs 70+ pounds....fat. I did talk to his owner about diet this evening. He's been eating Kibble 'n Bits. She's going to switch.
Anyway Jackson is extremely rough with Beau. Worriedly rough.
Beau is very submissive and will roll right onto his back and Jackson grabs his neck very roughly and won't let go, even to the point where he has dragged Beau a little ways.
Molly doesn't tolerate Jackson treating Beau like this and she rushes in to help her friend. But Jackson is very capable of throwing Molly off.
Jackson's owner is a 24 year old young woman (and her husband but he doesn't walk with us). She is very nice and I hate to ask her to stop walking with us. But she doesn't say anything to Jackson when he's doing this. She doesn't ignore it, she will pull Jackson off Beau after Molly starts to kick some Jackson arse.
She is listening to my advice on diet and I want to give her sound advice on how she should be handling Jackson when he's doing this. I simply don't know what to advice her to do.
But pulling JAckson off Beau isn't enough - he simply goes right back as soon as she releases his collar.
Beau's person is also very quiet and doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I've got 10+ years on both of them (20+ on Jackson's person) and feel I can handle the situation diplomatically.
So throw some ideas at me as to what I can suggest she do with Jackson when he's trying to rip Beau's throat open. He nipped Beau a couple of times today too making Beau yelp.
Beau is the sweetest dog and I'm afraid Molly will get hurt defending Beau.
And this girl has got to get Jackson under control NOW...he's going to be a large dog.
Thanks for any advice you can give me.

 

The only advise I have is to not allow them to play together unsupervised. JUST as soon as you see this type of behavior. Distract him and devert his attention to something else.


Also you can try letting him only play with more dominant dogs. Not sure though, that could make the situation worse.

Is he neutered (can't remember)?

 

yes he is neutered.
His owner has exposed him to playing with an older more dominant male and her pup backed right down and whined a lot when the older dog tried to set him in his place.
But when he's with a more submissive pup (which all 3 of these are) he is a very rough bully.

 

By reading your post, I get the impression the dogs are being introduced off leash?

Try doing it this way so the owners can gain control of the situation.

Use Positive Reinforcement: From the first meeting, help dogs experience "good things" when they're in each other's presence. Let them sniff each other briefly, which is normal canine greeting behavior. As they do, talk to them in a happy, friendly tone of voice; never use a threatening tone. (Don't allow them to investigate and sniff each other for too long, however, as this may escalate to an aggressive response.) After a short time, get the attention of dogs and give each a treat in return for obeying a simple command, such as "sit" or "stay." Take the dogs for a long walk ON LEASH (Loose leash) walk and let them sniff and investigate each other at intervals. Continue with the "happy talk," food rewards, and simple commands.

Be Aware of Body Postures: One body posture that indicates things are going well is a "play-bow." One dog will crouch with her front legs on the ground and her hind end in the air. This is an invitation to play, and a posture that usually elicits friendly behavior from the other dog. Watch carefully for body postures that indicate an aggressive response, including hair standing up on one dog's back, teeth-baring, deep growls, a stiff-legged gait, or a prolonged stare. If you see such postures, interrupt the interaction immediately by calmly getting each dog interested in something else. For example, handlers can call their dogs to them, have them sit and reward each dog with a treat. The dogs' interest in the treats should prevent the situation from escalating into aggression. Try letting the dogs interact again, but this time for a shorter time period and/or at a greater distance from each other.
Continue walking. Repeat process.
Introduce the dogs gradually with owners teaching them dog manners and giving them all ground rules.
Hope this helps.
Sue

 

Theres a couple of things I can think of, one is if Jacksons owner could work on recall with him, another is get an empty plastic bottle, put some pebbles in it and as soon as you see Jackson getting rough then give it a good shake or 2 and shout NO....(it might upset the owner but the owner obviously doesnt see that theres a problem or if she does she doesnt know how to handle it..) or the other thing is if it was me I might be inclined to tell her a littel white lie and tell her something like "you know, after they played like this last time, Beaus neck was pretty sore when we got home and he wouldnt get up and move around much"....as long as she can see Beau now and she can see that he is fine it might just 'hit home' with her and while its not exactly being truthful right now sooner or later it could happen, how will she feel if she knows her dog has actually put another dog in the hospital, the dogs aside but that can be pretty traumatizing for all owners especially when their dog is the one that caused the damage....I know people who have 'got rid' of their dogs over something like that because they feel so guilty.

Is there any possibility that you could join a training class together? Like you say, Jackson is only 8 months old, this behaviour will escalate if its not taken care of.

Good luck.

 

Training class! Now that is a good idea. Sounds like they already have enough dogs to begin their own class. :lol: The soda can with pebbles in it also sounds like a good idea to stop him in his tracks of rough housing.

Jackson will still need to come to a conclusion as to what type of play is acceptable and what is not. This will need to be shown to him. The owner doesn't want to inadvertently teach Jackson that playing with dogs is a bad thing. (Its the rough behavior that is not allowed) CUING is ESSENTIAL. She will need to stop the bad behavior (using the using a soda can w/pebbles) is a great idea) but then she immediately needs to show him what type of behavior IS acceptable so he will realize the difference, then PRAISE to the high heavens for the acceptable behavior. This is the only way he will learn.
Also, the other dog chimes in as well.
So, introducing dogs on leash for short intervals and letting Jackson know what the owner will allow as "acceptable" play probably would be a good way to begin. Make sure the leash is long and loose.
Molly should also be on leash during these Jackson training sessions so a 3 way fight doesn't break out.
If Jackson and Beau get rough, you can distract Molly by getting her to focus on you and you directly. Don't allow her to get in the middle of it.

Picture all of you taking your dogs to training class and how the trainer would explain introducing the dogs to each other.

Mary, you have owned dogs for a long time and are an experienced dog owner so you can step up the plate as the "Trainer of your group" You have what it takes and are diplomatic so you can be in charge of your class and teach your dog as well.
It actually sounds like fun!!

A great obedience training book you can purchase easily is Dog training for Dummies. It is very informative and gives some wonderful training ideas.

One trainer I had many years ago taught a "Bully Breed" class. You can imagine how rough the play was at these classes. (Play was only allowed on owners terms and conditions) *And after class was over) You can also imagine how bad it could have been if the dogs ever got out of line. This trainer was the best I have ever seen in my life. She held 8 wk. classes for all types of bully breed dogs. Most were adopted from shelters with 0 - little training in their background. Many dogs had dog aggression issues.

She had us all stand in a large circle (there were 20 dogs in class mind you and their owners)
First lesson she taught in the class: FOCUS on OWNER EXERCISE (WATCH ME) Onwer needs to have FULL control over their dogs at all times!

What she made us do is get our dogs to focus on us directly! (Teach a watch me command to our dogs)
The dogs were never allowed to go at each other even if it was just play.

. The idea is that we have control of our dogs actions. We must teach our dogs what behavior is good and what behavior is bad.
Then we had to practice politely passing the other dogs and their owners.
If the dogs acted up, and got crappy with the other dog, we gave a firm correction to our dog and let the dog know it was not acceptable.
When the dog passed the other dogs happily, we PRAISED THE HECK OUT OF OUR DOG!!!

Next training session for your group should be teaching a recall with small amount of distractions in the beginning and then working your way up into a higher distraction level would be helpful too.

Well Mary, I vote you the head trainer of your group. You have what it takes!

Good luck, keep it fun for all and enjoy the SPRING!!!

Sue

 

Hi Mary:
Can you give us an update on how the dog play is now going?
Any better? Worse? Same?
Hope they are all learning and having fun!
Sue

 

we haven't gone walking since I posted - weather.
But I'm taking note of all the wonderful suggestions and when we can get together again I intend to use them.

 

Beau and Molly have walked but not Jackson - his person hurt her paw and has had to stay off it. Then the weather got nasty (still is).
Beau saved Molly 2x our hike Sunday. Molly HATES the water and she jumped into a moving stream and wouldn't come out. Beau went to her, licked her muzzle and she followed him out.
Next time she wouldn't cross the stream. Beau went back to her, showed her an easy jump and she followed him.
Those 2 pups have a really strong friendship - assuming pups have friendships.

 

Oh How sweet!! Sounds like they are best friends!!!
What type of dog is Beau?
Sue

 

I believe Beau is part Austrailian Cattledog/Lab
he has the build/profile of the cattledog but coloring of a lab

 

Please post if any of these suggestions work. Jackson sounds just like Indy. They'd probably be best friends. Indy plays ROUGH! and he likes to get the same in return. Luckily Maggie can take it pretty well.

 

Mary and Eliza, I just go my my issue of whole dog journal and there is a great article in it about about dealing with this exact issue.

If you want to pm me an email address and I will send it to you

 

hello here are two VERY helpful sites....one specializes in doggies.

www.unclematty.com

and

www.petservice.com

I also used the gentle leader (a type of special leash) on my dog and he instantly calms right down and behaves whenever its on.....theres no spikes - its very well, like its title..gentle!

give the websites i posted a look-see......and good luck to you and your pup!

WOOF WOOF!