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Parvo Statistics Technical Question

Discussion in 'Dogs - all breeds / types' started by fleahead, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. fleahead

    fleahead New Member

    I've been reading a lot about parvo, and puppies seem to be the most likely to die from this (pre-inoculation). I have seen no websites that discuss the likelyhood of death of adults that are current on their shots or puppies that have completed thier 16 week series.

    Does anyone have any knowledge of the question, or know of a site that has parvo statistics?
     
  2. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    Ive heard of a few cases in old dogs with compromised immune systems that havent been vaccinated since they were puppies that have come down with it but Ive never actually seen a dog over 2 years old with it.
    I worked at an emergency clinic for 5 years and daytime practices for over 15 years, at the ER the bulk of what we treated where, hit by car pets, attacked pets and Parvo cases, hardly a week went by when we didnt have an isolation ward full them.
    The initial symptoms are really no different than a lot of problems can cause, loss of appetite, diarrhea, vomiting, lethargy.
    Do you have an adult dog that you suspect has it?
     
  3. seaecho

    seaecho New Member

    Like DeLaUK, I was also a vet tech, and I've seen a few cases of geriatric dogs with Parvo. In fact, my 12 year old Sheltie who was current on her vaccines came down with a mild case of it. Most of the cases I saw were with dogs that were under a year of age. Incidentally, an animal that is current on vaccinations does sometimes come down with it either because of mistakes in the way the vaccine was given, or the dog might have had a slight fever at the time it was given, or the dog's immune system, for some reason, just didn't respond to the vaccine. This is no reason not to skip the vaccine, however. Its recommended that the Parvo vaccine still be given yearly, although its questionable whether the others (Distemper, Hepatitus and Corona should still be given on a yearly basis). Vets are beginning to realize that some of these vaccines can cause problems later on down the line. Leptospirosis is not often given anymore because of the high rate of bad reactions to it. In the clinics where I worked, every time it got windy, it seemed that we suddenly had four times as many Parvo cases. Its because the wind carries the virus, and flies do too. So a dog needs never even set foot outside his own property to contract Parvo. That's how contagious it is. After what I've seen, my dogs will never, ever be even a single day late on their Parvo vaccines!
     
  4. fleahead

    fleahead New Member

    My situation is: there was a stray dog came to our sons house. We took it in as it was so skinny. We did keep it separated from our two house dogs, one a 4 year old schnauzer, and the other a two year old beagle/russell. Both fully current on all shots. Both very healthy. Even though we kept the sick dog confined, and we cleaned all vomit and excrement with clorox, I'm concerned there could still have been exposure, as aggressive as the virus is. By the way, we had to put the sick dog down. Our vet just said to keep an eye on them, but I was curious as to what the chances are they could still be infected, and if so, the chances of survival with immediate treatment.
     
  5. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    Do you know for sure if the stray had parvo? was it a pup?
    I would think the ages of your two dogs and the fact that they are current with their vaccines the chances are minimal if any risk at all. (I never say never in medicine). Like your vet said, keep an eye on them and the first signs of any sickness take them in, theres some debate about the incubation period, generally most vets will say 10 days to 2 weeks before you see any signs of illness but Ive heard some vets say 3-4 weeks and Ive read studies that said it can be a short as 3 days.
    As for the chances of survival with early treatment, 80% survival rate, some can be treated at home succesfully (under instruction from a vet).
    The dogs that usually dont make it are the ones that have already got to the point where they can no longer stand up, are very young (5-12 weeks) or have other health problems additionally to Parvo. Occasionally with early treatment we might lose a dog in the 'high risk' group, i.e. Rotts, Pits; Danes, Dobies, German Shepherds. None of your dogs would be considered in the high risk group.
    Hope this helps a little, like your vet said watch your dogs closely.
     
  6. fleahead

    fleahead New Member

    DeLaUK - the vet did not test her, but said he was 99% sure it was parvo. Her temp was 104.5, blood stool, blood vomit, did not eat, but did try to drink water, completely lathargic, so weak she could not stand up.

    Thanks for your professional experiences. By the way, are these ads for Parvoguard and Provaid just quacks taking advantage of desparate pet lovers. I asked my vet and he had never heard of either.
     
  7. Shineillusion

    Shineillusion New Member

    There probably aren't any reliable statistics available for adult cases of parvo for several reasons.

    Unlike human diseases, there isn't an agency vets report to, like the public health department or CDC, that human doctors are required to report certain diseases to. So without accurate reporting, there isn't a data base one can look to.

    Also, getting a clear and accurate diagnosis of parvo in adult dogs is difficult. Most adult dogs, vaccinated or not, will show some immunity to parvo simply because the virus is so widespread in the environment. Vaccinated dogs will sometimes test positive for parvo even when they aren't ill. In many cases, the only way to definatively diagnose parvo in adult dogs is through post mortem exam once the dog dies.

    Campylobacter infection, which shows the same clinical signs as parvo, will cause a positive result on the most commonly used tests for parvo, and since the treatment is the same for both diseases, campylobacter isn't widely diagnosed because treated dogs usually get better, and no further investigation is done. Or they die, and because the dog was presumed to have parvo, no post mortem is done. It's probably a lot more wide spread than one might expect, and is possibly responsible for many cases of adult dogs diagnosed with parvo.

    I've read about Parvoguard with extreme interest. After working for a major pharmacutical company, I'd think anything that can honestly claim to kill a virus once it's in an animals body would cause an uproar in the pharmacutical industry; as to date, there are NO medications available that can make that claim. That's why we have no cure for AIDS, herpes or even the common cold. Researchers would be all over this like stink on a skunk if it were true. And I seriously doubt it would be available without a prescription.
     
  8. Jas

    Jas New Member

    Likely if your dogs are healthy and not immune compromised they will be fine given their ages. My concern would be if you had young pups not adult dogs.

    Many vets, breeders and owners who have studied and researched vaccines disagree with giving a HEALTHY adult dog a parvo vaccine yearly. You will hear for and against depending on who you talk to or bring your dog to. After puppy shots my dogs do NOT receive further Parvo vacs, I will titer test. Thankfully vaccine protocols are changing, albeit slowly. I've seen vaccinosis, in many forms including almost killing a puppy. I disagree with overloading a poor pups system with 5 way or more combos. I tend to somewhat follow Dr. Jean Dodds protocol. You can read more about Dr Dodds recommendations here: http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

     
  9. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    Good point about the vaccines given to adult dogs Jas, some vets are only giving combo shots every 3 years now. Although to board your dog the boarding facilities (unless in a hospital giving 3 year shots) require yearly shots.
    Parvogaurd, Ive heard of but dont know any vets that use it so I have no experience with it, Provaid Ive never heard of. As shine says, there is no cure for a virus, you treat the symptoms.
    If it was parvo there would be a concern if the dog had defecated on soil or grass at the house if you wanted to bring in any unvaccinated pups, the virus can stay in the ground for a long time, however if the dog was on concrete and youve cleaned it with bleach you should be okay.
     
  10. Shineillusion

    Shineillusion New Member

    I've also gone to a 3 year protocol for vaccinations. I had an interesting discussion with my vet over this. His view was, for liability reasons he has to follow packaging directions when advising clients on how often to vaccinate. And packaging directions still call for yearly vaccination. However, he agrees that the 3 year protocol is effective, and doesn't discourage anyone who wishes to follow it.

    As for overloading an animals immune system with a 5 way combo; I'm not sure that's even possible. An animals immune system is bombarded with thousands of pathogens on a daily basis. Barring an allergic reaction, or reaction to the preservatives used, five more pathogens one way or the other probably isn't going to make a significant difference. This stimulation is partly what keeps the immune system strong.

    There's some interesting research on the current tendency to sanitize, disinfect and otherwise attempt to sterilize our environment. Are we making ourselves sick by not allowing our immune systems to mount a defense against common bacteria? And are we making ourselves sick by over-exposing ourselves to some pretty potent chemicals?
     
  11. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    We often give very tiny pups, like..teacup poodles, maltese, min.yorkies etc. only a half dose of a vaccine, the vaccines themselves even without an allergic reaction can cause pets to become lethargic, loss of appetite and generally not feeling good for about 24 hours (no different than humans, especially babies), occasionally we'll split some of the vaccines too like now we'll give a combo and leave the Corona shot for a week. With adult dogs its not uncommon, again mainly with the smaller breeds to give a combo shot one week then return for Bordatella and Rabies vax. Its at the vets discretion.
    I dont know of any vets giving Corona vax after the one year booster after the series of puppy shots were finished.
     
  12. Jas

    Jas New Member

    A dog with a strong immune system could manage challenges from natural exposure to disease, however vaccines are not natural, vacs itself breaks down immune system. Point is to keep immune system strong where combo vaccs have been known to work together to suppress the immune system and leave a dog open to disease which is what i mean by overload. Too many probs associated w/any vaccs. Vaccines are much more stressful on an underdeveloped immune system like that of a puppy. I'd much rather give single shots. Unfortunately most vets would charge more and the added expense and time is just not in many people's budget
     
  13. Jamiya

    Jamiya New Member

    Right - the problem with vaccines is that the mode of administration is NOT natural in the least. Viruses naturally enter the body through the respiratory system or the digestive system, where they encounter first lines of defense before they ever make it into the bloodstream. Injecting five viruses directly into the blood compromises the immune system.

    I do not vaccinate my dogs, ever. They got their puppy shots because I didn't know any better at the time. I titer them for rabies and get a note from my vet saying they do not require the shots in order to get them licensed with the city.

    By constantly poisoning our dogs with vaccinations, drugs, topical poisons, etc, and feeding them an inferior diet, we are permanently compromising their immune systems and making them MORE susceptible to a whole host of problems, most prominently auto-immune diseases like cancer, arthritis, and allergies. Most of the diabetes, kidney, and thyroid issues that are now common among our pets can be traced to the same origin.

    A dog that is fed a species appropriate diet and clean water and kept as free as possible from chemicals has a much better chance of fighting off any infections they do happen to get. You may never know your healthy dog had parvo if they are a bit lethargic and off their food for a day and then bounce right back.

    As far as the vaccines go - when was the last time YOU got a measles vaccination? Do you get one every year? Why not? And if YOU don't need to renew your vaccinations every year, why should your dog? The yearly protocol was initially started as a way to require people to bring their pets in for a yearly check-up. A yearly exam is very important and since vets thought vaccinations to be harmless, they started to spread the word that pets need them every year. The three year vaccines are EXACTLY the same stuff that is in the one year bottles - just packaged with a different label. There are ongoing tests to determine how long a vaccine is effective for, but most of the time they don't bother to extend the experiment long enough to see how long an animal really stays immune. It is to the benefit of the pharmaceutical companies to make people believe they are only good for a year.
     
  14. honeybears

    honeybears New Member

    right on Jimiya, it was the pharmeceutical companies, that said yearly, because they sell more! And it leaves open the door for lawsuits (like the article I just posted) to vets because the directions with the drug says to use it every year and if you dont we cant guarantee the drugs effectiveness. My vet just went to 3 year propcal a few months ago because more studies are saying the animals are being over vaccniated and do live longer. example, why in most states, rabies are required every year and others are 3 years. its the same medicine.

    honeybear
     
  15. Shineillusion

    Shineillusion New Member

    Well, I hate to go admitting my age again, but I didn't get a lot of those immunizations as a child because they didn't exist. Instead, I got measles, rubella, mumps, and chicken pox. I remember not being allowed to attend county fairs, movies, or the circus because of the fear of polio. I was lucky enough not to have contracted polio, but some of my friends weren't so fortunate. I remember kids in leg braces, kids in iron lungs (now that's a sight you never forget), kids that lost their vision to measles, boys that ended sterile from mumps, and a few that died of pneumonia or encephalitis, secondary to those childhood diseases. Anyone care to go back to the good old days?

    I also remember taking my own kids back to the health department to be revaccinated against measles and such because the shot they thought would deliver lifetime immunity didn't. I also get a yearly flu and pneumonia vaccination because quite frankly, I'm not ready to risk dying from a disease that can be prevented.

    I also remember when dogs died in droves from distemper. Ditto for parvo. And after going through a couple of rabies scares at the vet clinic, I wouldn't trust a titer test to prove a dog or cat is immune to rabies. Titer tests indicate an exposure and response of one part of the animals immune system. They don't insure a high level of immunity. Even high titer tests.

    Post exposure rabies vaccination for humans isn't a walk in the park, although it's easier on you now than the old vaccines. And if you're bitten by an animal with odd neurological symptoms who doesn't have a current rabies vaccination, you're faced with making a decision that could mean life or an unpleasant death.

    It all boils down to weighing the real risks against the real benefits. If you feel yearly vaccination is too risky in relationship to a three year protocol, with no additional benefit, then that's the way you procede. If you feel the risks of vaccination are greater than the benefits entirely, well, all I can say is, I wish you the best of luck.
     
  16. honeybears

    honeybears New Member

    "It all boils down to weighing the real risks against the real benefits. If you feel yearly vaccination is too risky in relationship to a three year protocol, with no additional benefit, then that's the way you procede. If you feel the risks of vaccination are greater than the benefits entirely, well, all I can say is, I wish you the best of luck."

    I think people just need to do their homework and have a clear understanding of what the pros and cons are of any drug and vaccine Like I said my vet is going the 3 year route, why? because that is what new studies are advocating, I have read them and they are faulting pharmeceutical companies, and I agree ( my opinion, I may be totally wrong) I think vaccnines are one the best things that have happened in our modern world, We have almost irradicated polio and other diseases because of them. I will still vaccinate my pets for certain diseases, But I want to know what the conesqueces are also.

    example. kennel cough, they say it is rampant around here and one vets says you need to have your dog vaccinated every 6 months. another other says that is crazy, So who do you listen to.

    and heartworm, I know its very bad here so I give my dogs their heartworm meds, no questions asked on that one.

    honeybear
     
  17. coppersmom

    coppersmom New Member

    My girls don't get vaccinated either. They both had allergic reactions even when premedicated and then to only the rabies and the parvo. In GA, it's the law to be vaccinated for rabies every year. My main worry is if one of them bites someone--which I am ashamed to say is very possible. I guess we'd have to go on the run because I'm not putting them in isolation at the animal shelter which I think is the practice here.
     
  18. fleahead

    fleahead New Member

    This has been an interesting debate. But, aren't there any animal health research facilities that test these theories? (Immune 3 years, 1 year, or only once). From what I've seen so far in my short pet owner lifestyle, animal health in general, appears to be many years behind human health, and I imagine it all comes down to cost, and what the public will pay. I would think the veterinary industry would be regulated, (that may not be the appropriate word), by a governing board similar to the AMA. As popular, and important, as our pets have become, I would think the public demand would be there for advancing the need for keeping statistics and the like. And for all I know, it may exist. Are there any professionals reading this that has an opinion?
     
  19. honeybears

    honeybears New Member

    Both Wylie and Jake had reactions to their last shots. for Wylie it was kennel cough and I dont remember whats Jakes was, I am almost certian it wasnt kennnel cough, but it was the first time and their reactions were the same, heavy panting, hot like they were running a fever and couldnt get comfy. It took several hours to subside oh and they are 8 years old.

    I am glad my dogs do have their rabies shot because wylie was attacked by coyotes last year and had to be home quarantined for 3 weeks. if she didnt, the vet would have had to report it and they would put her in isolation and believe me she wouldnt have lasted.

    But I dont think I will give kennel cough again, because they are not in that environment, so I take that risk

    honeybear
     
  20. honeybears

    honeybears New Member

    fleahead, here is some reading info on it, that may shed some light on this

    http://www.canismajor.com/dog/vacci01.html

    http://lowchensaustralia.addr.com/health/vacc.htm



    and it not only includes vaccinations but other preventative treatments as well. I know there is an annual shot now that is coming under scrutiny for heartworm that has caused illness and death. The problem is how to know if it causes side effects.

    Its kind of like what is happening with the human viox, they are now saying people can take it again, but you have to know the health risks. Are you going to take it because it makes you feel better, knowing it may cause a heart attack or stroke. thats your decision.

    honeybear
     

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