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Possible to TRAIN OUT/Re-program a Pit Bulls animal agressio

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by Shady_Babygurl, Apr 1, 2004.



  1. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    I am in a bit of a dispute on another board about dog agressive Pit Bulls. Do any of you think it is possible to TRAIN OUT or Re-Program a Pit Bull? I understand the training etc can help a situation but I do not think a Pit Bull can have its dog agression trained out of them 100% where you can trust them to be around a specific dog that it doesnt like. Any comments on training out agression. Not breeding it out but training a dog to be friendly with dogs that it previously wanted to fight. I believe you can NOT trust a Pit Bull NOT to fight. I think better to be cautious than sorry. I think training might help control the problem but shouldnt be the only sulution for it. Pit Bulls arent like Labs etc. They have genetics that cannot be reprogramed. I am a Pit Owner and have been raied around them but a Pit is a dog, and who can be certain of what a dog thinks.

    Just wanting to know everyones opinions on the matter. PS Has anyone else heard that Pit Bulls sometimes do not get along with other Pits but do with other breeds? I have experienced this several times but others say it is a crock of sh**. Just curious if any of your Pits dont get along with other Pits but do with other breeds.


    Kim :idea:
     
  2. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Hello, I'd like to see the other board and the arguement. Please send me the link if you would true_pits@yahoo.com

    You are right in your thinking there is no possible way to train out an inborn train in any breed, there is no reason to think Pit Bulls are some exception to this. You can only control it and manage it as best as possible with training. Even with a dog who is completly dog friendly as normal dog dispute could turn into a disaster if the dogs are unsupervised. That is how so many people loose there pets. I think there is one on this board right now. It makes me very sick that these people do this and there poor pets painfully die because they won't seperate them.

    Thats true and it makes sense. Pit Bulls (like other breeds) can recognize there own breed and want to rumble but be prefectly find with currs, opposit sex of their own breed and puppies. It just depends on the individual dog, but most won't figth currs, at least teh well bred ones who have a good level of confidence, discretion and awareness.
     
  3. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Forgot to add, the dog in your avatar is very beautiful. Such a gourgeous dog. Is it male or female? How is it bred?
     
  4. bullylove1

    bullylove1 New Member

    Hey Shady,
    Nice lookin' dog you got there. I agree with you. YOu can never be 100% sure with any Pit Bull even non aggressive ones. That's why you shoul dnever leave them alon in the house together, you never knw what could happen.
    About re-training. I believe it is possible to train a Pit Bull to TOLERATE another dogs presence. That being said, that does not mean play off leash or let them roam together.Tolerance is when you walk him down the street and instead of seeing a dog and wanting to go at it, you train him to tolerate the other dog, and re-direct your dogs attention AWAY from the other dog, so he won't fixate on it. "fixing" Aggression in dogs is all about re-directing. If your dog get upset at the presence of a dog, then you can redirect him to more positive things, treats, toys, ect. to take the attention away and remove him from the stressful situation.

    My dog is very dog aggressive with every breed. Because of this we choose wisely where we take her, and always try to set her up for success. If I walk her during the day when there are lots of other dogs out, I know she is going to get too aroused so I choose to walk her late in the evening and early mornings.

    Caution is key.

    Just my opinion.
     
  5. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    Agression in Pit Bulls...

    http://groups.msn.com/AAAmericanPitBull ... 0241559508

    http://groups.msn.com/AAAmericanPit...essage=18202&LastModified=4675466150241559508

    There is the link to the message thread. Again I believe that you can redirect a dog, but never train out genetics. You can help change the things that trigger a dog etc, but how can one say you can reprogram a Pit Bull and train out genetics?? The dog on my altar is Foolish, 2 1/2 yr old ADBA blue brindle male. He is game bred, Watchdog, Hughzee, Winegarner, lines. He was just neutered last month. His temperment is if he likes you he likes you. if he dont he dont lol....I dont put him in a situation that can turn negative. Dogs cant be expected to be humans and take the responsiblity so I do that ensuring that an ACCIDENT etc doesnt happen. He is friendly with most. He occassionally has the moment where he find an animal he doesnt like. I remove him from that situation and go on.....Simple......Kim
     
  6. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Thanks for the links. I might post some myself on the thread or the board period.


    He is a great looking animal. Do you have pics you can post or a photo account, I'd really like to see more of him. I'd like to know some more about him/his parents. I haven't heard of any game dogs coming from those lines, well game blues period! Who is running this stuff gamebred? Do they have a site? I only know of one said 2xw who is blue, and of Rook's Ghost but he's a grey dog and dbl bred Skull ROM and 1/4th Frisco. At any rate you have great looking dog there and I'd really like more info on him and where he came from. Thanks!!!
     
  7. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    Agressive Pit Bulls...

    Foolish came from a breeder in Providence, Kentucky. His breeders are Danny Phillips and Ronnie Hogan Jr. I paid ALOT of money for Foolish. Some of the names in his ped include Watchdogs Beelzebub, Hughzee's Spooker, Hughzees Sir Zeus, Hughzees pretty boy blue, Persingers Mollie Bee, Winegarners Kong, Winegarners Blue Harmony, Ortiz Zula, Hughzees misty night, His parents arew Woodys Mammy bone, and Woodys Blue Quake. I dont know much about game lines etc but I know his father was 3xw. Thanks for the compliment about him though, hes getting kinda out of shape since I neutered him last month. Still hasnt calmed him down much. He will be 3 on May 14 this year. I cant wait! My baby is growing up :cry:
     
  8. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    That is weird that he's getting fat. Well I mean people always tell me their altered dogs get fat?? But mine never do/did. The Boxer wasn't as trim though around 4 years old she started getting a little layer on her ribs.
    Thanks for the info. He is awesome looking dog, gotta love em.

    I was asking because those aren't gamelines.
     
  9. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

  10. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

  11. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Misleading Post

    The first post there was a little misleading...

    Nice to see you here True _Pits...

    I was saying that it's possible to control an APBT's aggression towards other animals... NOT all the time but in certain circumstances... I specified that in my arguement and noted that they aren't to be trusted in an unsupervised situation.

    I just wanted Kim to understand that what she was saying, by generalizing the comments so much were showing the APBT in a bad light by those who may be reading it that didn't know about them as a breed or were new to them....

    I'm sure you took at look at it True_Pits and understood my point as well as Kim's... I don't even think we disagree on it...I just pointed out where her statements were a little misleading to people who don't know the APBT... I never said that agressiong towards other dogs could be completely trained out of them... I made the statement that APBT's can be trained to be good citizens in public...can be trained to be trusted to be good citizens in public on leash and in training/testing scenarios it's been done successfully... I never noted that a dog that has been aggressive or in a fight with another dog could be trained to NOT be aggressive to that dog...that never even came up in my posts...

    Kim... You should have at least crossposted the posts I made in your topic here... Sometimes it seems you TRY to argue about things... Like I said... I think we're ultimately in agreement on this...
     
  12. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Sorry Sara i haven't read it just yet. I've been really busy.

    Thanks for the pic links. I'm working on my new album, stayed up until midnight lastnite doing it. Not finished yet!!!
     
  13. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    I didnt post your post here because I didnt think I had the right to. Your opinions and post are your own. What I posted here what MY opinion and thoughts on the subject at hand. I dont go around cross posting peoples post. You said the Pit Bull could be reprogrammed. I said genetics cant be reprogramed, it is THERE and nobody can change that. I NEVER said the Pit Bull wasnt a good puclic citizen. I would never talk about abo0ut the breed. I was raised with them and my father raised them and my fathers father. I am not making it seem these doga are unpredectable in public. I only noted that the temperment of a dog agressive Pit Bull is natural, not to be frowned upon as negative, its what they are, and when people buy them and then think its AWEFUL cause theor Pit doesnt get along with another dog and seem to ask what do I do, it kinda upsets me. If these people would look into the breed before buying it they would know that this is a characteristic of a Pit Bull.

    You always stated it was a crock of ***MOD EDIT FOR LANGUAGE****that Pit Bulls sometime are agressive with other Pits but get along with other breeds. 3 people on the board alone already comments that they have found that to be true. I have experienced it with SEVERAL Pits. You cant claim something to be a crock of shit if you dont know for sure. I have alot of knowledge of Pit Bulls and you claim I dont justify my post. I have posted my opinions, and provided refrences to most of it showing that it is somewhat true. I never said a dogs agression couldnt be redirected but I did say you cannot trust a Pit Bull NOT to fight. That is a very common opinion of alot of Pit Bull owners. If given the oppertunity and chance to, they WILL do what they want.

    All I was trying to say. Training alone canot be the ONLY solution to a agreesive Pit Bull. Alot of it is the owners responsibility to make sure the dog isnt in a situation that can turn negative. If a specific dog aggrivated your dog, dont have them around them, if your dog doesnt do well in doggie parks, dont take them there. Its pretty simple, a dog agressive dog cannot be agressive towards a dog if your dont subject them to that dog. I am entitled to my opinions same as you. You say alot of the same things I am but you continue to argue that Im wrong and youre right. I dont understand.....If we are in agreeance then why keep posting I am wrong and preaching and needing to do soul searching as you claim?

    Kim
     
  14. Sara

    Sara New Member

    A Crock???

    I stated it once and again...I qualified the statement as noting that it can happen but shouldn't be an expected thing... IMO one should always assume they're dog won't like ANY other dog regardless of breed etc...

    My point is and always has been that an APBT can be trained to be okay with other dogs in public etc... ESPECIALLY in Rikers situation... You were basically saying that you can't train them out of it...that's all you said... You NEVER said you could train them to be under control in public (which is what this person wanted to know how to handle...) What would a person think that hasn't been around APBT's before or that was lurking ot get more ammo for BSL when they read your statements about how easily it is for an APBT to "turn On" at any moment with no warning... ESPECIALLY in the context the comment was in... Check out the posts I've made... You think I'M the one argueing when I said...that a dog can be trained to be a good citizens yet YOU'RE the one going on and on about it... YOU STILL ARE??? I'm saying you're wrong to have made the statements you made...because they were tooo general and would put off many people who already beleive the myths about them being uncontrollable... You argued my point that the APBT could be re-programmed... I explained my point further that I was meaning that an APT can be trained to be a trustworthy citizen in public...yet you kept argueing that it is not possible to train genetics out of them... From the outside looking in...it sounded an awefull lot, in several posts, that you didn't even think you could train them to be good citizens... I do know what I'm talking about and I've tried to make it all clear but for some reason you can't get clarity from it because you're sooooo worried about being right... You aren't seeing the forest for the trees STILL... It seems to be a lost cause... if anyone here doubts that I beleive the APBT shouldn't be trusted UNSUPERVISED and that I truly beleive the APBT can be trained to be trusted UNSUPERVISED I urge you to check out that link and read that thread as well as the thread about the bad pit press on Law and Order... And if anyone wants to see how they can train their APBT to be a good citizen in public if you're having problems doing that...there's also a great training article about it I posted.

    Seriously Kim... Don't keep argueing a point that's long since been clarified and fixed... My point now is... Take a moment and think about what you post and think about it from the standpoint that poeple can't read your mind and that not only APBT lovers read that and other boards... MANY BSL advocates read and lurk JUST to get some dirt on the breed and hurt it later. Take a moment and when someone misunderstands your post (as I had and so did Michaela) and clarify your point instead of trying to beat it into those that don't quite understand what you are saying (we obviously didn't understand that you meant APBT's can't be trusted in unsupervised and high stress situations/dog parks).
     
  15. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    I don't want to step in on your arguement but I fully expect it because it is the character of the breed. There are exceptions and I understand this, that they may be aggressive to currs, but I most definatly expect them not to be even if they want to fight another pit.
     
  16. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Currs

    I know what you are saying True_Pits and you're saying it from a knowledgeable long time pit owners point of view... But NO ONE should actually EXPECT any breed of dog to NOT be aggressive more towards one breed of dog than another... I don't think ANYONE should expect ANY dog to NOT dislike or react aggressively to any other dog.

    That's not to say that a fully OB trained dog under control shouldn't be expected to well...stay under control regardless of what breed of dog he is confronted with on a walk in the park (not dog park and on a leash)...

    Dogs are animals and can't be expected to NOT react as an animal would react...regardless of breed. I have a real passionate feeling on this one becuase sooooo many people have had serious dog fights and accidents with dogs that AREN'T pit bulls because they think they're dog will be fine with other dogs...(dog parks...dumb idea)... simply because they're dog is not a pit bull...etc... Same goes for the other way around... people with Pit Bulls think they're dog is only going to have a problem with Pit Bulls and/or smaller dogs and the APBT ends up attacking a Mastiff etc... Rule of thumb IMO should be...don't EVER trust a dog to not be a dog unless supervised and under control... End of story... No speculating on what breed will be most likely to tick your dog off...or what breed will most likely be ticked off at your dog...or when might your dog be ticked off etc...

    Don't speculate or make excuses for your dog...he will fight ALL Rotts but is fine with Husky's...then he ends up nailing a Husky... He's not a (random breed)so he won't be dog aggressive...he's been OB trained so will be fine off leash in a dog park...he's unpredictable any way and can't be OB trained to be okay on leash in public so what's the point... This breed can't be trained and WILL bite sooner or later so we better ban them... That breed is not a biter.... This breed was bred to be a companion so it won't bite anyone... That breed is not a hunting breed so he won't eat the hampsters...

    I just don't think enough people out there expect ANY dog to just be a dog... So I don't think Pit owners shoud NOT expect their dog to go after ANY breed... JMO...
     
  17. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    You are right I am speaking from knowledge and experience. A dog that is curr aggressive probably has some issues with confidence and isn't acting in the true nature of the breed, its just dog aggressive. Small dogs are included, they are little and should be no problem with little dogs for a Pit unless its running around excitung the dogs prey drive.
    It is the same situation with puppies, you don't expect them to attack or be aggressive to pups. Some will say a dog who does has serious issues because a pup should be no threat to the dog and no reason to fight. My male as attacked pups, be he has cuddled and played with them, penned one to the ground for biting him very hard when he could have attacked them, he is a good representation of how the breed should be, he's not unstable IMO or having a serious issue. But he does have one issue, jealousy, if he is on my lap or has seen the pup get "his" attention he will take it out on them. So I have to prevent that from happening. He knows he's my fav, my boy and expects to be first for everything and to be paid attention to.

    I don't go to or believe in offleash dog parks for any breed. But really fully OB trained or not trained at all should have nothing to do with it, thats what I meant when I said it was the character of the breed to want to fight other Pits and not currs, it has nothing to do with training.

    I have full control of my dogs, I know each of my dogs and if an accident happened, well I would seperate the dogs simple as that. What your saying is good advice to new Pit owners and other general dog owners.
     
  18. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Currs...

    IMO unless you absolutely KNOW the bloodlines of your APBT you shouldn't assume they won't be specifically against targetting currs in their aggression...

    I have a theory... I think that many of the APBT breeders (mostly BYB but not only...) are mistaking Prey drive with the old fight drive APBT's had back in the day when testing was actually done...you know what I mean??? The standards for breeding these guys has lowered quite a bit since there is no more fighting done with them (or very little compared to how many people breed them)... So the temperment of them are changing... I've seen more APBT's that are aggressive towards other dogs in a strictly prey drive attitude... I've also seen game bred dogs with the right fight drive that drives them and it's WAY more controlable than the prey driven' dogs. I've also seen more defensive APBT's coming from BYB's than fight driven dogs... But by far...the most APBT's that I see have more of a prey attitude abou they're fighting or aggression...

    I think it's odd...and I think that's why there are so many different points of view... It seems there is a HUGE difference between the behavior and temperment of Gamebred dogs (out of tested parents) and Pits bred for show or even WP... WP pits are almost non-dog aggressive at all...with prey and play drive exclusively.

    Just a thought... I have a couple links to articles about that sort of thing...the whole breeding thing... I'll post them in a moment.
     
  19. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    I think we are really thinking very much alike in my views, I should have elaborated more last time.

    Of course I know the bloodlines of my dogs. Know what the dogs were like behind them. Know the parents and siblings, ect.
    I'm not assuming anything and don't need to speculate. Not saying they wouldn't ever and if another dog attacked them they are going to defend themselves, but thats not being aggressive its self defense.


    Yes I know what you mean, testing is still done. That is how we have gamebred dogs. That is what I've been reffering to, I forget that we're not talking about game dogs, its just natural for me when I'm talking about my experience/dogs and APBTs in general to be talking about them as gamebred dogs. Not thinking about the many dogs that are not gamebred and are currs themselves(including gamebred currs) and that most people like pet owners and breeders don't breed or own gamebred dogs.
    But I do have my non gamebred female that is an extremely aggressive dog. Her dam is WP bred dog and a conformation bitch. The sire is down from gamelines but is a conformation dog bred for conformation(or WP). (although he has a very deep game brother) Now her sire is a very aggressive dog also! So is the littermate female. My female is just the same way, very aggressive. She will fight with a curr, she tries to start the fight, she looks for dogs, she knows where they all live. This has made drag weighting in the streets/sidewalks hell for me. She is nothing like a gamebred dog at all, she is overly aggressive, mouthy, naughty bitch. Very hard to control and keep focused. One thing a like is that she is still good with pups. Her sister is the complete opposite. The dam isn't aggressive, but the uncle is very aggressive has been with both other APBTs and currs so he has no discretion with that either will fight a curr. Many of the other dogs on the damside (WP bred) are badly aggressive like this. some of the owners actually believe these dogs are game lol. The Uncle was maybe looking at being tested but there hasn't been any dog large enough to put on him, I think this is really pointless, but they wanted to know what he was really like and think he would be up for it. I don't believe so and he's never been in a bad situation, he has crushed and destroyed currs, the only APBT he has been with was a young dog smaller than him and another who was running loose and probably not looking for a fight, just ended up in the wrong place with the wrong dog. No dogs his size so its not going to happen and the owner has decided against it anyway, not even going to breed him, still going to continue weightpull with him though.
    So I agree a big difference between the way the dogs are bred and how they act.

    I agree with this very much. No matter how many people have horrible things to say about dog matching and dogmen they don't understand it or know what goes on. The haven't seen the effects that non-gamebreeders have had on the dogs. The complete change, they don't realize all this. The APBT wasn't ever perfect by any means, but percentage wise it was much less likely to have a dog that would bite a human, let alone kill them, a dog who would attack and kill a curr(or even other Pits of opposite sex or pups), much less likely to have shy fearful biters, all this is more.
    Some of these people actually claim its dogmen who are breeding aggressive dogs, when thats not true. They have even gone as far to say they are the ones breeding dogs that maul children and kill people, its just foolish ignorant stupidity. The temperament has definatly changed for the negative, BYBs did a big help to that.

    So we actually agree and see it the same way. More controlable, but for the most part I have no need to control them in a sense that they don't try to fight, they are naturally calm. Some do need guidence and control, but they are much more easy then the other types of dogs out there being bred.
     
  20. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    OMG OMG

    Sarah you told me I was flat out wrong but then you QUOTE my opinions as your own when another agrees with them. I was the ONE to say
    Dogs are animals and can't be expected to NOT react as an animal would react...regardless of breed

    AND you say this


    know what you are saying True_Pits and you're saying it from a knowledgeable long time pit owners point of view

    So when I said the EXACT same thing you are accusing me of not being a knowledgeable Pit Bull person?? Like I said Ive been around Pits for 24 yrs, and my father raised them and HIS father raised them. How am I not knowledgable when I state the exact SAME pint???


    ALSO I said this NOT you, you disagreed WITH ME on this exact sentence

    don't EVER trust a dog to not be a dog unless supervised and under control... End of story.

    OMg that drives me luny when someone agrues MY points but when someone agrees they take MY points CLEARLY posted on the other board SEVERAL times and claim them as their own. Thats a crock! Sara you KNOW I said these exact things and you disagreed with me, now youre posting them like they are YOUR opinions...Im so done with this argument, you cant debate with someone that changed their story half way in.

    I STAND upon my beliefs and I dont have to clarify anything for anybody. I said exactly what I meant, and if someone cant read it cleary too bad. Im not going to sit and argue the facts any longer. Im a very experienced person in Pit Bulls and I KNOW what Im talking about. Most of the statements I made were based on facts, the rest was based on personal experience. I dont need to change my opinion or sugar coat it for anyone. Im done with arguing with you Sarah. I dont have to be right or wrong to win. I posted my opinion, opinions are right or wrong.


    Kim
     

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