Question For Mike (or anyone who has advice)

Hi,
I'm asking this on behalf of a friend who has 2 German Shepherd girls.

He got Brodie first as a pup ( 7 weeks) then got Tia when Brodie was 6 months... Tia was 18 months old. She was left alone alot as her owners didn't take into account they needed to work all day. They found her a new home and now she lives with Brodie and family.

Now, they're fighting big time. They stay in a heated garage, and in the garden. They're guard dogs aswell as pets. They do go inside sometimes. He walks them 3 times a day, mostly off leash, and I'd say they get a good 10-15 miles a day. They play ALOT, and until recently it's been play fighting.

Tia's 3years old in April and Brodie will be 2 then. I've told him it could well be the old age thing. They're both reaching maturity so are trying their luck at every oportunity.
I don't really know how to say to him that it could be his fault they're fighting. I will if anyone agrees though.
See, to me Tia's boss, so he should be backing that up. I know he should be the head of the pack, and he is, but they still need to sort it out between them. I don't think he treats Tia as the boss. I tried saying today that by Brodie getting her treat a split second before Tia he's telling Tia Brodies above her?

My theory... I'm thinking that Tia has always been boss, has sensed Brodie's reaching 'that' age as is trying to keep her in place. On the other hand, Brodie's trying her luck and attacking Tia for leadership.
He has them trained well, but struggles to stop them fighting as they're big dogs and very strong.

I don't know if this is an insight into anything, but, when they're fighting, if he pulls Brodie off (by her collar) and orders Tia into a 'down' that's the end of it. But, if he pulls Tia off, no command will stop Brodie from still attacking Tia. She's just lunge and carry on through every command.

Other than this they both do EVERYTHING they're told, first time.

I know this is a bit all over the place, sorry. I was just trying to give you the picture as brief as possible.

Any ideas on handling the situation?

 

German Shepherds NEED to be with their people.
Leaving one in the garage or outside does nothing for the dog. They NEED jobs...walking them 3 times a day isn't enough interaction for them at all.
They are probably bored and in trying to establish their dominance with each other one will end up hurt. If they viewed their person as pack leader it might change things a little. Their person can't be their leader since they spend such little time with him.
They are establishing their own pecking order. They'll either need to duke it out or be separated unless this person wants to spend more time with them and work with them.

 

I have to agree because there owner is not with them much because of work the dogs are trying to fight it out to see who is going to be top dog so too speak.

Most people seem to think the male will always come out on top but this is not always the case, Bitches can be alot more dominant than the males.

From what i can gather they are both perfectly fine when out on there walk and playing but when they are home they are fighting.
If only fighting when at home it could either be over territory or over who is next in command to the owner or there boss so to speak..


I agree this sounds like a maturity thing but it could also be some other issue.

He needs to see if he can figure out what triggers this problem when they are together.
One maybe getting more attention than the other.
How did he introduce Tia to Brodie, It could be he never gave them time to adjust and brodie looks at it this is his house not Tia's.

He needs to start all over again. When feeding do not let either of the dogs in the room until both dishes are on the floor.
Giving treats make them both sit and give them there treat at the same time, Your friend has 2 hands so this should not be a problem.

Are the dogs Spayed and neutered, If not this is something he should consider as it should calm them both down.

Behaviour classes would be a good idea.

I hate to be the one to say this but if he can not solve the problem then crating them both or rehoming one maybe an option.


Sorry i could not be of more help but i have never had this sort of problem, Shepherds usually get along great but usually the bitch is the alpha dog.

Mike

 

Thanks for the replies guys.

I didn't make clear actually when they're fighting...

They're fine at home. In the house/garden/garage they get along great. It's when they're on a walk usually. They can be absolutly fine playing, then an hour into a walk the play fighting turns nasty.

He does spend alot of time with them, they go everywhere with him. He works nights, walks them at 5am when he gets in then from when he gets up around midday they're together till he goes to work at 9pm. There's other family members around when he's in bed/at work so they do get attention even though they're outside. He has taken them both to obeidience classes which they did great in.

The 'trigger' is the problem. That was the first thing I said to him... you need to recognise the trigger, but there isn't a visable one.

Also, Tia got speyed today and Brodie is booked in for 2 months time.

I wasn't aware that speying a bitch could calm them down? I just thought it was a male thing :lol:

He introduced them away from the house then bought Tia back and that was a year ago now so I think that's covered.

 

I once watched a state police canine officer do the demo thing with his dog.
He mentioned they only use (or primarily) male dogs - the obvious reason being the animals remain intact and imagine a bunch of police dogs on a job with one female in heat...I'm pretty sure the job situation would get ignored. :shock:
the main reason also was female dogs, although they train fine, tend to be more headstrong and not as controllable as males.
The example he used was like a bear with a cub. A mother with her child. The female dog starts to see their police partner as their pack member and rather than work with that person they will do whatever they have to in order to protect that person. So if they have to take down a bad person they might not stop when the handler tells them to - their "rage" (don't like to use that word but it's the only one I can think of) isn't as easily called off as a male dogs is.
So imagine 2 instinctively protective GSD females, intact, living together. Both probably vying for the attention of their owner. Logic would lead that if the fighting is occurring when they are being walked - maybe the owner should walk them separately under the fighting/dominance issue is under control.
He might find himself in the middle of it one of these days.
I have a friend who had 3 GSD siblings..all spayed and they lived together in harmony till they got to be about 3-4 years of age. Then the battles for dominance began. Those dogs lived to be in their early teens and 2 of them in particular had to remain separated for the rest of their lives. Whenever they saw each other they would fight like they were possessed.
My friend couldn''t/wouldn't let them work it out cause they were tearing into each other....so one day one would stay in a room and the other in the rest of the house; next day they'd swap. She did that with them for about 8 years. She didn't know what else to do.

 

Bad idea, IMO. There is no way to know for sure that Tia is boss therefore backing her up could cause more problems. People tend to think the pushiest dog is the alpha, this is usually not the case.
Anyway, since this behavior is not occuring in the home and only occurs on walks during play the above is irrelevant to the problem.

So during the walks the dogs run off and play? Is it seemingly innocent play that escalates into a fight? About how long are they usually playing before a fight breaks out?
From what I gather about the situation from your description....one dog probably gets too rough at some point during the play causing the fight to occur. Interupting the play periodically could possibly prevent this. Both dogs would take a short break to calm down and relax prior to the play escalating into a fight and no more fights. If the fights seem to break out within 5 mins of play, he could interupt them at 3 mins. regularly.

I recently watched Patricia McConnell's Dog-Dog Aggression seminar and it seems to be of her opinion that dogs should never be allowed to play for more than a few short minutes without interuption because of the potential for fights when one or both dogs become too aroused.

 

Wow, thanks you two.

Mary - Your post does explain ALOT of their actions, I'll pass that onto him today.

Nern - I think you've hit the nail on the head. I never even thought about seperating them after a few minutes, and obviously he hasn't. As things are I think this may be the best advice he'll ever get.

When I said I beleived Tia to be the boss it was only from my obsevations. The second they start playing Tia will roll Brodie. She does it a few times with the very rare occasion she'll 'allow' Brodie to 'appear' to roll her. That's the only way I could see a difference in their behaviour.

Thanks again!

 

We are taught the same thing at the shelter where I volunteer. When we are putting together play groups, if a couple dogs start really playing rough together, we break it up every minute or so to prevent it from escalating. Let us know how things go!