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Really setting the exaple, aren't they??

Discussion in 'Dogs - all breeds / types' started by Samsintentions, Jul 19, 2007.



  1. Samsintentions

    Samsintentions New Member

  2. Sara

    Sara New Member

    I still beleive in the whole innocent until proven guilty... It's really easy for legal forces to manipulate things in a case like this in order to show a person as one who is illegally fighting dogs... Parafanalia can range from injectable items like Vit. K to simple Treadmills and those lovely flirt poles and spring poles we all use. Some states say that if you take pits acrossed state lines that's enough to hold you in jail for the crime of illegal dog fighting... Multiple dogs and scars can seal the deal in many areas... This guy owns several properties and the evidence they say that have linking Vic to the people who were KNOWN to be fighting dogs that lived in his residents while he did not is circumstantial at best... I'm not even sure they can specifically trace the ownership of the fighting dogs directly to Vick himself... This dog fighting stuff is normally murky and when there's a famous head one can put on a stake for everyone elses benefit the waters only become murkier...

    Heck if there was a witch hunt in my area I would be VERY close to being involved and if not directly implicated in fabricated dog fighting rings or at least definately watched closely (who knows I might already be a target for survelience)...it seriously doesn't take much for someone to construe that a person is fighting dogs...it is a witch hunt and as always common sense and the mantra "innocent until proven guilty" tends to get left in the dust somewhere.

    It'd be horrid if he was fighting dogs and the folks they already KNOW fight them should definately be punished...but to label Vick as guilty only by association on grounds of a kennel name is reaching a little much IMO. We shall see what more they can use to convict and if it's compelling by all means put the man away or at least fine him a HUGE ammount but if not...

    Sara
     
  3. loves-da-pits

    loves-da-pits New Member

    My philosophy. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. Oh yeah, having eye witnesses claiming to place him at the scene at several of the fights is incriminating as well. And if that's not enough I'm sure the proverbial "smoking gun" is there somewhere in the way of a video. Those types love to video the carnage.

    He'll have his day in court.
     
  4. Sara

    Sara New Member

    If there's a video that's great...if not...it's hard to say...eyewitnesses mean very little in court because their testimony is easily corrupted one way or another... Problem is the guy is famous and who wouldn't want to believe that he's guilty...an eyewitness can't lose...

    My only point is, if he's guilty then there better be more evidence than the press has released...

    On a side note...wonder how many other famous folks will end up on the chopping block if Vick IS guilty and starts really talking?

    Crazy messed up stuff...

    Sara
     
  5. loves-da-pits

    loves-da-pits New Member

    I sincerely hope that this calls attention and brings down anyone, famous or not, and gives them a good dose of misery just like what's inflicted on those dogs.
     
  6. honeybears

    honeybears New Member

    Sharon, what you just posted is what I read. I understand innocent until proven guilty, but in my book like you say walks like a duck quacks like a duck.

    The prosecutors said they are keeping mum on a lot of what they have so could indeed have that smoking gun.
     
  7. Sara

    Sara New Member

    The problem is the way they (law enforcement and media) are defining a "duck" is not exactly the case...

    For instance, yard accidents can results in scars and you can have plenty of notorious dogs who manage to be houdini relatives...escape = Yard accident...not a dog fighting operation... The big one that really gets me is breaking sticks being one of the things people have who fight dogs...ANY multiple pit bull owner should have a breaking stick in order to be responsible...

    What also gets me is that they're talking like it's ALL the people and NONE the dog...unfortunately that is not the case...PLENTY of pet pit bulls, well bred show pit bulls have dog aggression issues and a desire to get into a battle...it's part of the breed...saying that it is a trained behavior is not the case...I think it's possible to get dogs to be fine and get over dog aggression but the fact of the matter is Pit Bulls lean HEAVILY toward dog aggression by nature so putting blinders on to that fact is just going to cause more problems...

    Keeping pits on chains...I know pits who go crazy in a run and do better on chains, in fact, most pits tend to work that way...so if I have multiple dogs on chains, scarred from a yard accident or two (which can happen to anyone, dogs kept secure in crates or not...) and a breaking stick will land someone in jail and on trial for running some clandestined dog fighting ring...jeesh add traveling between states with the dogs in tow for a dog show or weight pull event and you have a formula for arrest...according to the media those things put together equals the "walk" of a "duck"...not a duck mind you...but as you guys stated..."if it walks like a duck..."

    I see your point what these folks are doing to these dogs is absolutely horrible but people need to be correctly educated and that's not high on anyone's agenda...shock makes for good news...negative is what it's all about...and when someone's famous involved...hell ya we'll put him on a poster and get neighbors to call on neighbors about possible dog fighting rings...

    I think it's likely Vick was involved on some level...but to use this case the way the media has is just wrong IMO...

    Sara
     
  8. jay

    jay New Member

    The Federal Government doesn't indict people unless they have a very strong case, could you imagine if they were wrong, with this much coverage. Remember they have a conviction rate in the 90's range, I'll go out on a limb and say he's guilty.
     
  9. Samsintentions

    Samsintentions New Member

    From what Ive read, and things I've "heard", I just find it too hard to belive they'd step in and make a case out of nothing.

    Sure, people can get falsley accused. I have several items that could be deemed parafinilia. Then again....who doesn't?

    The way I see it, is if there's animals on the premisis, that are indeed fighting dogs, with the battle scars, wounds and in need of treatment, and if they have found a "ring" I say he sould pay for what he's done. Eventually word will get out from the people he's worked with, obviously they're spilling the beans about him, he'll start spilling info about them.

    Its not about the people in this case, its about the dogs. Whats going to become of them because of their stupid owners dealings? certain death?? Its just not fair in my oppinion...
     
  10. MyPetTherapyDog

    MyPetTherapyDog New Member

    I'm with the duck theory.
    If he is in fact guilty I hope they make a fine example out of him!
    Poor dogs!
     
  11. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Some people are so blind and its sad. I guess they will never realize until/if it happens to them.

    Witnesses? Are these not people who themselves were nabbed and are trying to get away without charges? Those to me are shady witnesses.

    Conviction rate in the 90s? That is bull to me, how hard is it to convince people that they are right. People trust what they say no matter if its true or not.

    Sorry but there have been many INNOCENT people convicted of crimes (not just dog fighting) murder, rape, robbery, ect on false eye witness accounts (whether they lied on purpose or were just wrong), improper handling of evidence and fabricating evidence, ect. I'm sure there have been guilty people who walk free. It all depends on how you sway the jury.
    There were to cases sometime ago which I remember were made into movies.

    Two couples were accused of molesting their children which wasn't true, but someone else who had it out for them accused them, the children were questioned and denied what allegedly went on. Until being questioned for hours and then days and told that if they just said what they were told was happened had really happened they could go and see their parents again. So of course you keep young children from their parents for days and then lie and trick them you get false confessions. What they did was wrong and illegal, but it would be a big case and big win for them so they wanted it. So these people were falsely imprisoned for years.

    Another case a man was accused of murder and put up on trial with little evidence and some that was not credible because they had lost a murder/kidnapping case and dropped the ball so they didn't want to loose another. To me a lot of time they just work for themselves, it makes them look good to get the convictions whether its true or not. One guy quit because it made him so upset that they charge and convict and innocent man for their own gain.

    Another was similar to the 1st with physical abuse that never happened and didn't have evidence of. However the family went through hell for months of being separated, questioning hearings and finally the trial. All because one woman was mad at them and wanted to make their lives miserable.

    These are just a few which are true stories turned into movies, how many other cases are out there just like this? Convictions of innocent people. How many cops have been found to have planted or fabricated evidence? Some that no one ever know about because they are forced to voluntarily resign so that no one knows what really happened. When does the DA make out an innocent person to be guilty for their own good? I'm sure its not rare.

    Maybe when it happens to you and they take your dogs and arrest you for no reason you will realize. Rude awakening, you don't have to be breaking the law to be accused of it. He is famous, innocent or guilty they will still want to charge him and make an example.

    One lady lost both of her PETS because they got into a fight in her apartment. Although she was found innocent her dogs were already dead because AC put them to sleep. Hope you never find yourself quacking like ducks anytime soon.

    Its pretty scary IMO when Pit Bull owners aren't the least bit worried.

    Here they are looking at anyone with a Pit Bull as a dog fighting suspect (many rumors have been spread about myself and people I know), one lady from animal control has given a heads up which is nice to know what the other are doing. If you own a Pit Bull you are a dog fighter, that was there statement. They have a list of names (including mine) and everyone else they know owns a Pit Bull, the vet here even gives out information which is totally wrong, we no longer give them business if they are going to be like that.
    They have proposed a Pit Bull ban several times here. Due to them being "aggressive" and "dangerous" although there hasn't been a bite problem. The 2nd reason due to the owners being "dog fighters" and thats the only reason they would own a Pit Bull. Even though there has been no evidence of real dog fights.

    People are so mindless and trust too much in the justice system which isn't always 100% just. If you believe everyone accused of dog fighting is guilty then you should also believe that they are banned because they are a real threat. After all they have their evidence that APBTs are dangerous, attack people and eat kids. They always have all that ready at their proposals so it must be true. I wonder why all these Pit Bull owners are appealing to higher courts for their dogs freedom when its proven they are dangerous killers.

    If they have video then I say give him his punishment. People doing wrong just bring the breed down, but so do people with false accusations.
     
  12. MyPetTherapyDog

    MyPetTherapyDog New Member

    True, you post a good point, however, I still think he is guilty. I hope I am wrong for the dogs sake.
     
  13. loves-da-pits

    loves-da-pits New Member

    I'll admit that there may be a 1% chance of reasonable doubt that the charges brought forward by the Grand Jury could be all circumstantial. But I am far from convinced just for the fact they removed 54 dogs from the property. I'm almost certain that this is a large amount of dogs by any reputable kennel's standards. Also, there's 18 pages of charges that are explicit. This is the full indictment:

    http://msn.foxsports.com/id/7035302_37_1.pdf

    Yes, the system is broke. Innocent people are charged and guilty go free. But it's the only one we have.
     
  14. honeybears

    honeybears New Member

    Sharon, thanks for posting the affidavit. Looks likk ethey have more than enough evidence. I had to stop reading it, mkaes me sick to my stomach
     
  15. MyPetTherapyDog

    MyPetTherapyDog New Member

    I have NO respect for anyone who fights dogs. 0 Tolerance!!!
     
  16. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    I haven't read all of it yet. I'm in no way saying he's innocent, I just say don't jump to conclusions without having all the details because you could one day be in his shows.

    You don't have to be fighting dogs to be investigated, arrested, dogs taken, charged, convicted.

    He can very well be guilty along with others who have been busted and charged. But just because someone is charged and convicted doesn't mean its true, thats all I'm saying, don't be blind and say conviction equals guilt or they wouldn't press forward without evidence. I know of a guy that was charged and convicted of dog fighting with no real evidence at all. NONE. All they had was some whack jobs testimony that had tried to get him to fight dogs and he refused to. The guy even said there was supposed to be a big fight so on that day they had swat ready to bust him and nothing happened, they ended up busting a kennel owner hanging out at his house and his buddy scooping poop after waiting for hours. This guy rambled off a bunch of crap testimony and the guy was convicted on hearsay and made up testimony of things that never took place and that there was no evidence of. So I'm just saying be careful and be aware.

    So basically I could be arrested and charged right now for owning a large number of APBTs, keeping them mostly separated on chains/kennels, having scarred dogs, owning a treadmill, flirtpole, springpole and breaking sticks. To me that is just ridiculous. So because someone owns 54 dogs they must be a dog fighter? If it was any other breed (say if he had Labs or Yorkies) the worse they'd be called is a puppy mill and thats if they were breeding the dogs, if not they might be called a hoarder if the dogs weren't cared for. But since they are Pit Bull must be a dog fighter. If what took place if true then he deserves everything he gets, just don't fall prey to crazy ideas like IF this is there it must equal this. Sounds just like the ASPCA and others crazy logic. Do you know that if you walk your dog then you are a dog fighter if you own a Pit Bull according to them? Because your conditioning it to fight in their book. If you walk your lab, Mastiff, Boston Terrier, ect any other breed then you are excersizing your dog. I read this on their signs of a dog fighter.
     
  17. MyPetTherapyDog

    MyPetTherapyDog New Member

    I have read the indictment over and over again. It makes me sick. People that fight dogs make me sick. They turn my stomach. I have nothing good to say about dog fighters what so ever!!! Its a sick evil sport!

    I still believe he is guilty as guilty comes.

    Yes, people that own multiple pit bulls are always looked at carefully. I don't have kennels but I do own multiple dogs of this breed. How do help change people's opinions?

    I do my best to display my dogs in the public image as positive family pets. People wishing to adopt this breed, I SCREEN SCREEN & SCREEN again. I promote the AKC CGC and other competitive events including weight pulling and agility, rollar blading, sledding in the winter etc....

    When I adopt these dogs, I look for postive vet references and adopt to people who will promote the breed the way they should. I also promote spaying and neutering of dogs by the local people leaving the breeding to the professionals.

    I have been interviewed many times in newspaper articles, (all in a postive way to promote the breed) I educate the public thru seminars, obedience video's and books.
    I also teach a bully breed pet therapy course working with bully breeds that have already gotten their CGC and now wish to work with patients.

    People that own this breed have to work extremily hard to promote the breed to the public as breed ambassadors.

    I won't sit back and crawl under a rock. I am proud to display my dogs to the public.

    My dogs get out in the public eye as much as possible. This is how I try to change the public's image of the breed of dogs I own.

    More people need to promote their dogs as breed ambassadors and not hard ass dogs. Punks trying to be men behind their dogs!

    If he indeed did what he is being acused of, he is total scum in my eyes!
     
  18. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    I agree with you, I think its up to all APBTs to be responsible and be positive with the breed.

    But thats just not enough, some people have made up their minds and won't change them. They see what they want to see. I've noted that watching animal planet when you see a stray Pit Bull about to be picked up wagging its tail at the officers and they say its probably starving and ready to bite anyone that gets too close because thats how Pit Bulls get. They come in contact with Pit Bull some mean I'm sure and some that you can clearly see are friendly and they still bad mouth the breed (on national TV) and the individual dog who you can see is harmless. But sadly too many people won't pay attention to what they see only what the "experts" say.

    You get your dog out in public? All the things you do I think are great!!! Great for the breed, for other people and just good for any dog in general. But you know thats not how some people will look at it. If you seen walking your dog in public you can as I said be accused of conditioning the dog to fight. Ludicrous but true. I always worried about this, being that I walk/jog/run dogs pretty frequently, usually daily when I can and always worry someone is going to start crap about me using them for fighting.

    You can change peoples minds, that is for sure, so its worth it in some aspects and why not be as positive as possible. Just know that it doesn't work for everyone, they are close minded ignorant people. Even meeting a super friendly Pit Bull who is perfectly obedience trained 100% reliable and stable minded they will still say they can turn at any time and I will never trust them and talk about some story they read or dog they knew that suddenly turned. Even with seeing a 15yr old Pit Bull thats the above they will still say the dog can turn any day.

    Not trying to discourage you and you are doing the right thing. I agree, and I'm not at all saying he is innocent. Its normal to discuss someones guilt or innocence in any high profile case. Just to be on the look out, keep your eyes open for you and your dogs sake. Keep fighting for what you believe in and supporting the breed, just don't be too blind to what can possibly happen. I'm aware that they can come knocking on my door any day with false accusations and I have to some how prove my innocence.
     
  19. loves-da-pits

    loves-da-pits New Member

    This is not the positive image for a pit bull! This is a disgrace. This is the image that people have of pit bulls. My dogs in no way or manner resemble these poor animals. And in no way do I resemble Michael Vick in my treatment toward a dog. In some warped way this thing may have a positive impact on how peple view pit bulls. All along pit bull advocates have been saying it's not the dog, it's the type of people who own the dog. Now they see it and they're outraged at the suffering and treatment of these dogs.

    Some pictures of how "caring" Mr. Vick is toward his dogs.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Sara

    Sara New Member

    I just have to point out that no one has any real knowledge about how that dog in the first and second pic ended up with scars... I've known of dogs with much more serious injuries than that one and they got them in a scuffle when one climbed her kennel and stuck her nose through the other dogs kennel...mind you neither dog had ever been fought.

    That last picture is of a dog on a chain...I'm not quite sure where it shows that he's being neglected or abused...from what I can tell you can see some ribs but with that big shadow behind him you can't make any definitave statement about that dog's condition...not any...

    I think it's wrong to do what Vick was accused of doing...it's totally wrong and helatious what people do... I just make the same point True is trying to drive home... It takes PRECIOUS little to make a responsible, multiple pit bull owner LOOK like a dog fighter...pit bull owners and breeders almost ALWAYS know at least ONE Person falsly accused due to some dumb evidence that, had any other breed been involved, wouldn't have even turned a head.

    For some reason you guys are missing that point...missing that it won't end with pit bulls and pit bull breeders/owners... It will keep going...slowly they'll figure out how to take all of our dogs from us... ASPCA and PETA are on some crazy irrational mission to take our pets from us... I find it terribly frightening to see pet owners, DOG owners PIT BULL owners jumping on the bandwagon regardless of what it means to them. What this means though is HUGE...whether or not Vick is Guilty...WHETHER OR NOT...I suppose though if you close your eyes and can't see them, they can't see you either? Ignorance is bliss?

    Sara
     

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