Sams, look at this guy

He's in a rescue, and he may have a new home in Memphis.

 

wow. Pretty boy!!! He's got a coloration problem though.. eyes and coat. Shows some faults in his breeding. But other than that, he's a very pretty boy!!! Could not be used for show or breeding, but would make a wonderful pet I bet. I love his energy that really shines though in that photo.

He's showing alot of the Dingo influence. The pointer nose, larger ears. slimmer build.

He's very pretty.

 

There was the tiniest heeler I have ever seen in my first agility class. She was a wild woman and she and Nala had trouble focusing on anything when they were too close to each other. Her name was Josie and she looked like a little dingo.

 

was she full blooded? The smallest a heeler should be is around 30 lbs. Some are bred down to other dogs and thats why they are smaller. The heeler has VERY dominant genes so they can come out looking just like one, but short, or wide, or long.... you can tell they aren't full blooded. But they have the colorings.

 

Okay ACD's are healers no question... So there's also the Astrailian Shepherd... Are they "healers" too??? I've heard sooo many people refer to BOTH as Blue Healers but they are not the same breed right??? Two differen coat types???

I'm interrested in one or the other and not sure which would be best.... I like Boarder Collies too...do all three excell with sheep or are the collies better with the sheep than shepherds???

I just want to get the distinction between ADC and Austrailian Shepherd and where the "blue healer" name comes from and with which breed it SHOULD be associated with mostly...

 

They make Mini aussie Shepherds...so could have been one of those based on what a Ausie Shepherd / Blue healer is to some people...

 

Blue heelers are ACD's only. Aussies are refering to the Australian Shephard.

They ar completely diffrent dogs.

Heeler:



Aussie:

 

Okay but you didn't answer the "heel" question... Do they both "heel" in terms of working and is an Aussie more suited for sheep than the ACD or neither??

Do they have the "miniature" ACD's too? Since they have the Mini Aussie's? This is in the Rare breeds BTW...

 

They both heel. The aussi is a little more laid back in terms of "herding" The heelers really get after it. The aussi is more suited for smaller game such as sheep and goats. though they do make good cattle dogs as well.

Both were bred for herding.

I know of alot of people who will use the aussi for the header and the heeler for the heeler....

THey make great teams.

 

That's what I was wondering... I've also seen people use Border Collies for heading and Aussie's for heeling... Interresting stuff... Crosses between headers and heelers seem to end in a confused and not so smart dog... But it seems Aussie X Border Collie crosses are pretty capable of anything...Hmmm...interresting. Thanks!

 

i don't think its a not so smart dog. But their energy level is remarkable. If they dont' channel their energy into soemthing useful and trained properly. They can become unruly and very distructive. Thats why many heeler x are in shelters. People get these "intresting" looking dogs and their "mesmorized" byt their tallents and what they are used for. But then they dont' ahve a clue as to how to raise one or train one.

The thing to remember with any herding breed. They MUST begin training at age 4 weeks. They pick up everything and soak it in like a sponge.

I start my herding puppies at 5 week in the cow pens with a few "calm" calves. Then I turn daddy in with them and they pretty much learn from him. Voice commands and signals come a bit later.

By age 12 weeks they are good to go.

completely obediance trained (as good as a puppy can get) and potty trained along with herding.

I had a lady call from OK and complained that her puppy wasn't Puppish enough. he was too well behaved. Uh...I'm sorry....was all I could say.

They are very energetic and their play is rough and continuous. Put once you channel that energy into physical labor and mental, they are wonderful dogs.

HPD contacted me here about 2 years ago to see if I would surrender a litter of puppies to begin K-9 training. They were intrested in the bite of the dogs, stamina, and intelligence level. The GSD's are coming up with sooo many genetic andhealth problems they are running low. So ACD's were an expeirement.

I declined of course. they basically wanted me to pump out litter after litter, and "give" them to them for little or nothing. Not going to happen. Then with the puppies that are 'rejected' I could place in homes after spending all the time to "de program" them. So other words, I couldn't aford it. What they wanted to pay would't have covered the vet bills, vaccinations, and transport....

So thier used for many other things. Flybally, adjility, and stuff

 

Did they ever find any to do bite work with? Are they defensive at ALL as a breed? I mean GSD's are but I just can't see an ACD really doing the work as it was meant to be done in that capacity... Keep them as herding dogs not guardians IMO...

I want one for horse work rather than cattle...trailering etc... As well as for fun agility or Skijoring depending on the drive of the dog etc...

 

They are VERY defensive animals.
If you read my post about Smokey biting Granvel you'll understand.
The thing about ACD's (blue heelers or red) is that they are a one person or small imediate family dog. THey will defend their territory, herd, and family to the death.

Rehoming heelers is not an easy thing to do. They get attached and once they do that, taking them to a new home or place can prove disasterous as we learned in Lacy's case.

The thing about using them as police dogs, they have the drive to herd, so they can be taught to track down and "herd" a human just as easily as cattle, sheep, goats, ducks...what ever it may be.

they are also bred to bite. Thats where they get the "heeling" from. They Bite the heels of the cattle in order to get them to move where they want, or hold them where they want.

A heeler is also a nipper. they nip to move the animal and bite and grab to hold them.

If anyone has ever tried to out run a heeler, they ended up on the ground and not wanting to move. The dog will nip or bite the heels or claves and trip a human, then use his training to hold them their either by force or intemidation.

They would make great police K-9 unit dogs. But until the departments and government decide to actually pay what its worth to get great bred dogs and the training, they arent' going to get it from me.

 

I see.... Never knew much about heelers but to me livestock dogs should stay livestock dogs and dogs that were bred as guardians for people etc...should be used in that capacity...like Doberman, Cane Corso's etc... That's Just my opinion of course... I see the difference though between your ACD a herder and my Boerboels who are bred defenders of family and property SOLELY... Boerboels catch and they defend man from angry cows and bulls but they aren't really "herders" per se... They use them for tough bulls like Rotts but they're both a different type than ACD's... Ideally I'd use ACD's for the hearding and pen type work but I'd use drovers for droving and guarding the livestock... That's just me though...

So to me... I like to see Dobe's and Rotts, and Schnauzers and Airedales doing police patrol work rather than ACD's or even GSD's.... Ever heard of a Donovan's Pinscher...? It's a bandog cross of LGD's and Bully types... They actually have an ACD look to them...

 

I know what your saying exactly!
I feel the same way.
Its like using a chi to guard when they were bred to control vermin and rodents.

I've never heard of that breed. Do you have a photo?

 

Let me see if I can find one... They use the Belgian Herders and cross them with APBT's and AB's and that sort of thing... They don't look like they could PASS for an ACD but build and stuff they could definately pass as ACD crosses... I'll see what I can find in terms of pics of the breed... I'm talking the generations that are like three removed from the initial 50/50 cross...ya know?

 

yeah.....
The Pemboke Welsch Corgie's are awsome to watch as well. even though they have short stubby little leggs, they can move!!!

 

I can't find anything but the 50/50 type crosses as far as pictures go... but at www.donovank9 I beleive you can see what his plan is and some of the pics of the 50/50 crosses...

I'm not a fan of the Corgie myself...but they are cool little dogs.

 

Sams- That was so interesting about the definition between the ACD and Aussies. Thanks!

Sara- I cannot believe you brought up the Donovan's Pinscher! I thought I was literally the only person who had ever heard of them! They are so interesting to me. I found this website for a little more info on them:
http://www.donovank-9.com


THE DONOVAN's PINSCHER-

Never before in the history of the United States has there been an attempt to produce a true utilitarian K-9......a K-9 not only competitive with it's inspirational European predecessors......but uniquely superior to them in several ways......after many years of breeding classic working dogs: EX: German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois, Rottweillers, Doberman Pinschers, Dutch Shepherds......and enjoying many successes with various breeds.....I have been haunted with a vision.....a vision of a working dog superior to all who have come before him....a dog of unique and varied talents......the tenacity of the fighting dog......the power of the Molosser......the trainability of the Herder......speed, power, durability and talent......a dog that could run, jump, climb and swim.....a dog that could wrestle and twist like the great fighting dogs that I have had the privilege to encounter......a dog with a quick mind and reflex......who would retrieve naturally on land or in water......a dog who had great responses to it's handler, quick to learn and extremely eager......a dog of power......in mind and body......ferocious when challenged and formidable to behold......a dog which could perform equally well in organized dog sports......or life and death confrontation......a dog that could stop your heart with it's grace and passion......or stop an intruder with explosive action......a turbo charged, fearless protector......with clownish sociability......who could out-do most any dog at any task......trick......or trade......The American Built Super Dog......Engineered to meet the increasing demands......of a changing world..........

Donovan's Pinscher stands a distinct advantage over it's competitors. It has admittedly adopted many of the basic requirements of the European style police dog, and in that spirit has cannibalized many top Schutzhund, KNPV and Ring Sport champions into it's distant pedigree. Donovan's Pinscher can be characterized as primarily a police dog by performance qualification Yet, with a major inclusion of fighting dog and Mollosor elements. We expect Donovan’s Pinscher not necessarily to be a” better" fighter, but a relatively " good" fighter in order to handle the fairly common situation in current urban life of potential confrontation with the fighting dog. This however is not the only advantage of fighting dog blood. Fighting dog blood improves the overall health and shock resistance of the dog. Physical durability, climbing, wrestling, and twisting characteristics that are so prominent in the well bred APBT are also major pluses. In addition, the obvious characteristics of the molosser (mastiff) regarding strength and power have been selectively included. Some of the so called "Modern Ban dogs" such as the Corso and Presa have been included in the development as well. I must admit it has been very difficult to locate potential breeders amongst these available "pure bred" dogs. I have had vast experience testing many Presas, Corsos, Neos, ETC… and I must say that I have found a somewhat higher percentage of general working ability in the American Bulldog….. If one is to consider them in a similar category. Many years ago I had the experience of working with exceptional Neo's in my Schutzhund club in the 70's but it has become exceedingly difficult to find that quality of worker in the contemporary Molloser. I am not saying that exceptions do not exist, only that I have had great difficulty in locating such individuals for breeding.

As far as weaknesses in my dogs I can honestly say that one of the greatest struggles in breeding toward my objectives is to maintain the powerful strike and sharp bite of the Dutch herder in the hybrid. The Molosser and Pit bull influence have a tendency to throw a somewhat softer initial "strike". They have been bred for many generations for an enduring, wrestling style of biting the characteristics of "shaking out" or " working of" the "hold". These are critical traits in the catch dog and fighter. It can also be an excellent trait in a protection dog. However, not so much emphasis has been put on the initial impact that the fighter/catch dog delivers. This is paradoxically where the protection dog is judged critically, also one of the main reasons why I have emphasized the herder in order to counteract this tendency. This is also an example of why it is very important to select carefully from available stock and have very specific criteria as to what the breeding objectives might be in my breeding program For instance, a dog may have great fighting drive and endurance, yet if he comes to the bite with an initially sluggish tendency that might be totally acceptable in a champion fighting dog but not so in Donovan’s Pinscher. To reiterate, this is one of the major challenges in overcoming the variables in hybridizing the herder/molosser/fighter, with the primary objective of police style training as a final goal. This is also where close line and in- breeding demonstrates its great value. I carefully select the individuals from the primary gene pool. Individuals which show the greatest desirable traits toward the outlined objective and simultaneously infuse out cross individuals which represent "extremes" in currently insufficient characteristics. I then sandwich this "extreme" between the two closely related individuals in an attempt to "fixate" or stabilize general characteristics, while simultaneously bringing strong, fresh, needed traits which propel us toward the overall improved balance in the bloodline. I have adopted many of my line and in breeding theories from contemporary APBT breeders who, I feel have done an outstanding job striving towards a clear, well defined goal. These breeders commonly have large families of closely related stock, which perform well and show none of the bad traits commonly feared by the novice as a result of line and in breeding. In our case, tight line breeding has shown outstanding results and continues to be a major tool in the development of Donovan's Pinscher.

As far as culling is concerned I have, over time, become skeptical as to its value, except in extreme cases. In dealing with a dog bred primarily for mental characteristics, I am put in the very difficult situation of trying to evaluate these critical characteristics at a very early age. Several times, I myself, have underestimated outstanding stock at an early age when the necessary maturity and development had not fully demonstrated itself. I must admit that some of these "discarded" dogs are now the genetic stronghold of Donovan's Pinscher. I believe FIRMLY in strict, selective breeding, but I seriously question after many years of experience, how we might select traits other than obvious physical characteristics at a very early age. Also, being curious by nature and scientific at heart, I like to see the worst case scenario of any given breeding if at all possible. How do we know how good or bad an individual puppy, who shows an undesirable characteristic at an early age actually matures into??? However, if, after vast experience with a particular bloodline, an individual breeder has become convinced that a certain undesirable signal at an early age leads to a calculable bad result then I would not condemn culling. I only again question the criteria.

At this time I would like to point out that Donovan's Pinscher was never really designed or intended for commercial purposes. Initially, I was developing a dog specific to my own personal requirements as well as to satisfy my own creative nature. I was at this time making a living training dogs, importing trained and potential police dogs from Holland and Germany, and selling occasional litters of pure bred dogs, primarily herders, but also bull breeds It was some of these clients, who would come to see pedigree dogs, that showed such a great initial interest in my new dog....Soon word started getting around the Tri-state area and people started requesting the dogs. We started out as just a handful of believers …..now we have many experienced dog men and woman currently raising and training these dogs toward organized working dog examinations. We have established a breed club and tattoo program. We are developing a breed survey which will evaluate and qualify dogs for breeding purposes. We believe this test to be unique in its emphasis on varied and unique working dog traits. We expect to hold a “high bar” to establish "DONOVANS PINSCHER" as the premier working American protection dog bred to face the new challenges of a changing world

 

I think they're a great breed and a really innovative idea behind them myself... I didn't think many people on this type of board would know at all what I was talking about...LOL... Working people all know them but otherwise! I wouldn't mind taking one on to try to title if I was into that sort of thing...but I'm not and I see no reason to have something like that as a pet right now... Just seems wastefull.

What do you feel about herding dogs working in guardian only situations like the GSD in protection work??? You are involved in the GSD aren't you??? if I remember right?