snickers has a dull coat

Hello. I have a question. My brittany spaniels, Snickers, has a dull coat. I know that can hint at some kind of disease, but the vet has seen it and didn't think anything of it, although I didn't really get a chance to ask her how to get rid of it or anything since Ranger was spazzing (he got attacked by a cat in a carrier when I wasn't watching, he insisted on walking between my legs after that) and Snickers was about to jump off of the table because she's so terrified of the vet (her fist two experiences were bad). Do any of y'all have any ideas on how to get rid of it? We feed them a food that says it will keep their coat shiny, and it's working for Ranger, but not Snickers. Her whole coat isn't dull, just about 3 inches behind her shoulder and back, and it's only her dark brown part, her white fur is all nice and shiny (unfortunately, most of her fur is dark brown.) I have tried brushing her every day, but that hasn't really helped, although maybe I need to be more aggressive in that, a little more rough (right now it is more like I'm petting her) and maybe I should just do it every day until I stop getting hair off of her. I have also tried using my shampoo that is supposed to help with shine (it is naturally through citrus or something.) I haven't looked at dog shampoos yet though, do you think one of those would help more? Any suggestions on getting her coat back to normal would be greatly appreciated! I was looking through old pictures of her and Ranger a couple of days ago, and she was beautiful with shiny fur! People still tell me she's a beautiful dog, but I don't think they want to insult her proud mother, lol, her fur looks dry and frizzy. I will try to post pictures if I can get my scanner fixed or borrow a digital camera from someone. Sorry this post is so long, I simply want to know how to get this fixed!

 

I give Indy fish oil (Grizzly salmon oil to be exact) supplements. They help a lot with his skin/coat. I give it mainly for his allergies but his coat is super soft/shiny b/c of it. I've heard other people swear by Lipiderm - it didn't work for Indy but may for your dog.

I wouldn't look for help in a shampoo. I've always heard that shampooing is bad for dogs. Indy hasn't had a bath in way over a year. His coat is great (aside from his itchies - but that is due to other causes).

 

Shampooing is NOT bad for a dog's coat or skin. That's a myth that's so old it has whiskers. Take a look at show dogs. You won't find better coats on a dog anywhere, and most of them are bathed weekly. Aside from cleaning the coat, regular bathing keeps the skin healthy by increases circulation, removes environmental dirt and rancid skin oils, and helps control bacteria and yeast which like to take up residence in rancid skin oil. It also helps release dead undercoat, so there is better air circulation to the skin.

What IS bad for coats, aside from poor nutrition, is improper brushing, the wrong shampoo, no conditioners, inadequate rinsing after a bath, too much sun, and intestinal parasites.

First thing, if you haven't had a fecal exam done, do it. If that's negative, move on to the next step.

If you're brushing every day, that may be too often, or you may be brushing incorrectly or using the wrong tool. In fact, I'd say you might be better off with a comb rather than a brush.

What I would suggest is that you start with a good quality dog shampoo that is formulated for dark or red coats. These shampoos are not dyes, but they will remove oxidation that dulls the coat, and contain protiens that will penetrate the hair shaft and strengthen it. Follow the directions on the bottle carefully. If it says to leave the shampoo on 5-10 minutes, then leave it on at least 5 minutes. That way the protiens have time to actually penetrate and seal the hair shaft.

Pay close attention to rinsing. When you think you have all the shampoo rinsed, rinse again. Follow that with a rinse of one cup vinegar in a gallon of warm water. A vinegar rinse will remove any shampoo residue, which dulls, and also lays the cuticle of the hair shaft down, increasing the amount of shine. Then apply conditioner.

There are many good conditioners available. Bio Groom Silk, Pet Edge ReFurBish, or one of the Tomlyn conditioners are all good. Again, follow the directions and leave it on the suggested time. Then rinse.

Towel your dog as dry as possible, then start combing. The reason you want to comb while the dog is damp is so you don't cause split ends. Split ends dull the coat. You should also apply a leave-in conditioning spray that has sun screen to keep the hair from fading and dulling.

To properly comb, start on a back leg. Push all the hair up and comb it down in sections, being sure you're combing all the way to the skin. When you finish one leg, go to the other. Then start on the body, again pushing the hair away from you and combing it down in layers. Last of all comb the chest, front legs, and ears.

Don't be afraid of over shampooing. If you're using high quality shampoo, you can't.

By the way, I'm a dog groomer. I've been grooming pet and show dogs for over 30 years. And I just attended a seminar on proper bathing and the use of shampoos and conditioners that was put on at Groom Expo, the largest pet grooming trade show in the world. The classes were taught by a veterinary dermatologist. And he concurs; shampooing is not only NOT bad for dogs, it's more healthy to be clean than to be dirty.

 

Thanks, I'll be sure to try that! For brushing I've used several different brushes, we have one of those metal toothed brushes, that they use on horses and such, then we have a soft brush with those black bristles that I use when I finish, and in between those two I have tried a metal brush with the balled ends, I'm not really sure how to describe it. I don't do it every day, because some days she can't stand being brushed, and others she would let you do it for hours, lol. She is an outside dog, which I forgot to mention earlier. Her hair looks like dead hair basically, like something didn't shed that should have or something. Hopefully we can get her back to her normal shiny self

 

If she's an outside dog, and what you're seeing is frizzy curled up tips on the hair, it's sun scald. Some dog's have hair that just seems to fry in the sun...usually darker coated dogs with fine, silky hair. The white hair reflects the sun, and isn't as prone to burning.

You can help it somewhat with conditioners, but like your own hair, the only real solution is waiting for it to shed out or cut it off. Fortunately dogs shed their coats en masse, and when she goes through a shed in the spring, it'll all go. After that, keep it conditioned and use a sun screen spray to prevent it from happening again.

If you want to spend the money, and if you're reeeaaaally good at explaining what you want, a professional groomer can skim those fuzzy tips off. But you have to be exact in explaining what you want, and find a good groomer, or you'd end up with a clipped dog. Not a good thing.

 

I guess being a groomer you have a different point of view. But I still don't think shampooing your dog all the time is good for their skin/coat. Maybe once or twice a year, but all the time - I doubt it. Sure, the shampoo/conditioner will make the coat look good that moment but that is only a temporary fix. Good nutrition is the basis of the dog's coat. If you give them good nutrition then you won't have to go to a groomer all the time to get their hair spruced up temporarily. Shampoos/conditioners don't fix the underlying cause for the dull coat.

 

Doesn't shampooing remove all the natural oils a dog's coat and skin needs? Aren't some dry skin and itchy problems due to being bathed all the time? I suppose maybe some dogs smell (poor nutrition, most likely) but I have never seen a need to bathe my dogs. If they get muddy, I hose them off with good old water. Other than that, there's no need, except when Nala was skunked (eeeeewwwww!!).

Chomper had a little bit of an odor to him when I forst got him from the shelter, but that went away in the first week - probably because the kibble I fed him was higher quality than the crap they feed in shelters. lack of stress most likely helped him as well.

I would go with the wild fish oil supplements for Snickers. Also, you can feed a raw egg a couple times a week.

 

Well, haha, she needs a bath anyway now. She and Ranger found something, and eeew. It smells. I'll try the fish oil, and do you have any spray on sun screen stuff that you would recommend shine illusion? That sounds exactly like what she has, and it would explain why Ranger (who has a lighter coat) doesn't seem to have it.

 

there is a good article in this months whole dog journal on dogs skin and it says that some amount of dirt and bacteria is actually good for the skin, and helps the immune system, but it also says that certain breeds need bathed a lot more than others, some like once a week, and others miminal. And to make sure like Shine said, you have a good non-irritating shampoo that fits the dog and the the other things she pointed out a soap that cleans teh skin without stripping it of its oils It also said said ingred like oatmeal even though good for certain skin ailments can be bad because of all the other stuff in the shampoo can cause irri tations and that supplements and fatty acids can be very beneficial for the coat

 

Modern shampoos do not strip the coat or skin. This may have been true back in the day when shampoos and soap were lye based. But nowadays there are very few lye based soaps, and certainly no lye based pet shampoos. Modern shampoos clean without stripping, have protien and other ingredients that strengthen the coat, soothe and condition the skin, and combat bacterial and yeast overgrowth.

When people see flakes in their dogs coat, they assume the dog has dry skin. Possible, but more likely the dog has yeast growing in the oils on the skin. These oils (sebum) will turn rancid over time, and provide a perfect growing medium for yeast and bacteria. Yeast overgrowth causes the skin to flake. This is true in humans as well as dogs, which is why dandruff shampoos contain ingredients that will control yeast and also cause the scaling skin to shed, allowing healthy skin to flourish.

Skin is a living organism. It adjusts itself fairly quickly, even if you use a shampoo that is too high or low in pH. You can prove this yourself by using litmus paper strips. The skin also produces sebum to lubricate itself. When washing removes the old, rancid sebum on the surface of the skin, the sebaceous glands simply replace it with fresh sebum. It's an ongoing process, takes place 24/7.

Real dry skin is usually caused by one of two things; poor nutrition and shampoo residue from improper rinsing after a bath. Poor nutrition can be the result of diet or internal parasites.

Dogs who are only bathed once or twice a year are much more prone to skin infections and itching. Double coated dogs are also prone to getting packed undercoat if they aren't bathed regularly. Packed undercoat makes your dog hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and contributes to the formation of hot spots. Packed undercoat becomes matted, and mats hurt. It also stinks. You might not notice the smell because you tend to not smell things you are exposed to all the time. Ask anyone who works in a chocolate factory if they can still smell chocolate. The answer is no. And dogs who don't get regular bathing have an odor that is less than pleasant.

There aren't a lot of veterinary dermatologists around. But the ones there are will tell you that dirty skin is unhealthy skin. And a dog who only gets bathed once or twice a year has dirty skin.

I see too many dogs once or twice a year for their "...need it or not" bath and brush out. I see few, if any, who truely have healthy skin. Their coats might look and feel ok, but they look and feel (and smell) a lot better once they've been washed, blown out, and brushed/combed. And it's obvious that the dog notices the difference, too.

If you really think dirty hair and skin is healthy, try not bathing or washing your hair for three months and see how YOU feel.

 

Sheesh, maybe it is just me but you can really be rude sometimes.

Dog hair and human hair are two different things so you can't really compare the two.

I did a lot of researching when Indy started having all his skin problems, and the stuff I found was to either not bathe them or if they have to have a bath, use a very mild shampoo. Indy keeps himself very clean so I haven't had to bathe him in about 1 1/2 yrs. His skin is NOT dirty and he does NOT smell. I am aware that I wouldn't be able to smell it, so I other other people if they smell and they all say no ( I ask alot b/c I don't want my house to smell - and I ask my family who have no trouble telling me the truth). The vet has even commented how nice his coat is.

This is in comparison to Samantha who I bathed about once a week b/c I thought that was the thing to do. I bathed her with the good shampoo with oatmeal, etc. and her skin was always very dry. Once I stopped bathing her all the time it got a lot better.

So what exactly am I to conclude from that?

If there is one thing I know it is that people have varying opinions on different issues. I know what has WORKED for me and my dogs so I'm going to stick with that. I replied to this thread to give my advice based on my experiences, I don't reply to a lot of threads b/c there are certain things I know nothing about and have no problem accepting that. I don't think it is appropriate to completely bash other people's advice b/c you think you are the expert. But that's just my opinion.

 

My dogs don't smell. I can stick my nose in their fur and inhale deeply and smell nothing more than a slight doggie scent, much like you can smell your own skin even when it is clean.

A lot of times the smell is due to poor nutrition which results in poor health. Perhaps dogs with good nutrition do not have the oily, yeasty problems that you describe? Perhaps that sort of thing is a result of inferior kibble.

When Chomper came to us, I could smell him. It was a "normal" doggie smell, but much stronger than my dogs. (He also activated my allergies.) After a few days on a premium kibble (I have been told to not feed my fosters raw because the transition to a new home is more difficult), he did not smell anymore. It could have also been the stress of the shelter environment making him smell.

It's too bad we don't live closer, Shineillusion. I would love to bring you my dogs and have your professional opinion on their coats and skin. I suppose there could be things that I am missing since I am not a groomer. But they are shiney, they don't itch, and they don't smell. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

this is from this months whole dog journal


F"urthermore, there is considerable recent evidence to indicate that a certain amount of “dirt” is good for the immune system. Exposure to dirt, low concentrations of locally important bacteria and bugs, local plant pollens, and household dust are all vital for developing a healthy immune system and for stimulating an appropriate immune response.


Finally, many shampoos or soaps contain substances that are irritating to the individual, again stimulating the itch/scratch cycle that ultimately damages the skin. Also, soaps seem to be individually tolerated or rejected; what works fine for most dogs may stimulate extreme itching in a rare individual.

Try a soap initially on a small area of your dog and observe the results. When you’ve found a shampoo that seems to work for your dog, use it only often enough that it keeps your dog clean and at the same time allows her normal skin oils to be present. Healthy skin should be dry but not flaky, pliable, and possessing a slightly oily feel, and the hair coat should have lustrous sheen.

Most mammals have both oil (sebaceous) and sweat (sudoriferous) glands located throughout the skin, but the dog’s (and cat’s) sweat glands are found only on the pads of their feet. Panting (along with increased salivation) are the primary ways a dog cools down.

Sebaceous or oil glands are usually associated with a hair follicle, and they are widely distributed throughout the skin of most mammals. Secretory cells of the sebaceous glands produce sebum, a substance that is mostly lipid (fatty material).

The functions of the sebaceous glands include:

• Lubrication and production of a protective, oily layer for the hair and skin.

• Inhibition of bacterial growth.

• Synthesizing vitamin D. (A precursor to vitamin D, dehydrocholestrol, is formed in sebaceous glands. When dehydrocholestrol is irradiated by sunlight to its active form, vitamin D, it is absorbed by the body.)



I will rinse the dogs off when they get real dirty and I give baths about every 2 months, My problem is Jake is in our chlorinated pool several times a day so that has to wreak havoc with his skin

 

I actively rely on this being true, LOL. It's the only way I can explain why my kids don't get sick very often. Lord knows we could all eat better and get more rest and exercise. The only way I can explain it is good genetics and exposure to "dirt", as anyone can tell you my house is none too clean.

 

Jimiya, I agree, they say we are making our society as a whole sicker and with more allergies by our overzealousness to cleanliness and that all these anibacterial products coming out are making things worse

 

yeah, they said those antibacterial things kill the bad and good bacteria that we need. anyway, shine illusion? the sun thing describes snickers perfectly, so do you know of a good conditioner with sun screen i could use, i haven't been able to find one.

 

Well this seems to be an instructional info on both ends of the spectrum. I am far from an expert on this topic. I have had a problem this summer with two of my dogs and skin conditions so this topic is very interesting to me.


I have American Staffordshire terriers. (short fur) and I bathe them about every two months. Mainly because they love to play outdoors and roll around in mud and get all dirty. If we are going somewhere in public, I give them a full grooming to look and smell their best! (mine can smell stinky from rolling all around in the mudd)
I also give my dogs fish oil. I think it works great for their skin. I know they smell a little doggie but their fur looks great and its silky smooth. I have 6 dogs so I can't afford all the expensive shampoo's and conditioners. I usually use the Horse shampoo and horse conditioner. I realize there are much better products to use but they seem to look great with what I am doing so why change if no need?

My lab used to go to the groomer about once per month to get his nails clipped and his beauty bath until he bit me. Unfortunatly, now my husband grooms him. I would not call it grooming, just a bath and brushing. The groomer made him look awsome. I can't hold a candle to that. He does seem to need grooming more than my pit bulls do.

I do have one question that hopefully Shine can answer for me.
Two of my American Staffordshire Terriers (and only two out of 5) and (neither get the condition at the same time either) sometims get a skin condition that errupts like a pimple would. It gets red and raised and bumpy feeling. Then it spreads. One of my dogs that gets this skin condition/infection is all white if that matters. They itch like mad. I have to take them to the vets for treatment.
The dogs have to go on Keflex antiobiotics for 3 weeks and I am told it is a skin condition but I don't think I ever asked the name of it. It is ITCHY!
The vets gave me Miconazole Nitrate 2 percent Chorhexidine gluconate 2 percent shampoo to use and Resiprox leve on lotion (praxmoxine HCL 1.5 percent w/oatmeal to rinse with. It is not contagious I am told. I do keep them on fish oil all the time. It has seemed to help once I started routinely giving them fish oil.


Do you know anything on this topic of skin problems? Or have any idea's how to stop my dogs from sometimes getting it? Or how they get it?
Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Sue

 

It never ceases to amaze me that people who will spend so much time and effort on their animals health and well being will neglect the largest organ they have; their skin. Bathing isn't just about hair. It's about skin. Clean, healthy skin.

Yes, certain bacteria are beneficial to the skin. Just like certain bacteria are beneficial to the digestive system. But that does not mean that all bacteria are beneficial. Staph infections are extremely common in dogs who do not get regular care and cleaning of their skin. Yeast is so common it's practically pandemic.

To quote veterinary dermatologist Dr. Terese De Manuelle of Portland, Oregon: "It is safe to bathe your dog with veterinary shampoo once a week." I think I'll take her word on it.

I bathe a great number of dogs weekly, bi weekly, or every 4 weeks. I don't EVER see bad skin, hot spots, skin infections, dry flakey skin, greasy flakey skin, dull coat, broken coat or any other sort of damage on these dogs.

However, the dogs who only get bathed once or twice a year show a great deal of unhealthy skin, hot spots, greasy flakey skin, bacterial plaques, and packed under coat.

Human or animal, hair is hair. It is basically comprised of kerotin, with different pigments that account for color. There isn't much else to it. And it's dead, the same as fingernails or toenails. The major difference between dog hair and human hair is the number of hairs growing from the follicle. Humans have one; dogs have many. Curly, straight, wavey or fuzzy are all determined by how the kerotin is constructed, but it's still just kerotin.

People seem to assume that dog groomers are uneducated people who wash and clip dogs, and don't take into concideration the fact that many of us are highly skilled and educated professionals.

I take classes several times a year on the health aspects of being a pet care professional. These classes are taught by some of the top people in the veterinary profession, as well as chemists, toxocologists, and parasitologists. A lot of us, myself included, are also veterinary technicians. I've studied and researched skin and coat care for over 30 years. Sorry, but I KNOW what I'm talking about.

Bathing is not detrimental to a dogs health if it's done with a proper shampoo, and the dog is adequately rinsed. If your dog is having dry, flaking skin after a bath, the chances are excellent that there is shampoo residue on the skin. A simple vinegar rinse will solve this. You do not have to allow your dog to have dirty skin to avoid flakes.

Sue, I'm not a vet, but it sounds like your dogs are getting staph infections. A lot of these start with an insect bite. Once the skin is broken the bacteria have a clear path to the under layers, and infection is the result. White dogs seem to be more prone to this sort of thing. Keeping your dogs clean will help, but you might need to adjust their diet to boost their immune response. Be sure there are no fleas or other insects biting your dogs. Be especially aware of spiders. Their bites are more common than people believe, and they can be a major cause of skin infections.

 

certain breeds of dogs are more predisposed to skin ailments than others,

Sue I wonder if thats the case with your terriers, it seems I have read an alwful lot here of people looking looking for help because their terriers get these pimple rashes, and it could be something seasonal triggering these outbreakds

Shine, I am going to do the vinagar rinse next time I give Jake a bath, because he is so big its had to get all of the soap out.

has anyone hear of using cocounut oil as a supplement or shampoos that have it? recently the whole dog journal did an article on it and was raving about it like some wonder cure for both people and pets, its says

its a medium chain fatty acid and the article says it contains lauric cid the same disease fighting fatty acid that babies get from their mothers milk that keeps them from gettng viral, bacterial and protozoal infections.

 

I still stick to my assertion that plain ol' water cleans just fine. I rarely use any type of "cleaner" on anything. A little vinegar in water is good for the food bowls that get raw food in them. Other than that - water, water, water!

How many wolves have skin issues? Anyone know?

I wonder if any of the research Shine is using was done on dogs that have a proper, species appropriate diet?

Shine, how would I look for these things on my dogs? If I can't detect them, then I hesitate to assume that they are present.