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Starting a Kennel. What should I know...

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by Rice and Gravy, Jun 12, 2007.

  1. Rice and Gravy

    Rice and Gravy New Member

    Greetings all.

    I am a new member to this forum. I love APBT's and have been raised around them since grade school.

    I am planning on starting a kennel very soon. I have a good looking male (2 yrs. old) and am currently in search of a great female.

    When I look on the internet for pups, everybody talks about head size, weight, chest size, and coat color. What about temperament? The local breeders where I live generally have the same blood as my boy. If they don't, they have GOTTILINE or RAZOR'S EDGE blood which is popular right now so $2,000 is the price for a dog that's pound for pound no different than my boy which I paid $500 for. What gives?

    So, with that said, what do I need to know? What are some good, pure lines to start with? Is it better to dual register? Should my foundation dogs be champions? What makes a good pedigree?

    Any replies good or bad will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance...
     
  2. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    First you need to think about goals. What is your goal when producing a litter and quality dogs. It should definatly include temperament as you mentioned, it should also include health, conformation, and bloodline/pedigree are also important as the genetics a dog carries is a determining factor.

    Things like wide chest, head size, color, body mass/weight are not what one should be breeding for, stay away from them. These are just fad breeders. Sticking to a breeder that breeds the standard is what you want to look for when aquiring a possible breeding prospect.

    I'd stay far away from Razor Edge and Gotti, most of these dogs are mixed with other breeds (Neo, American Bulldog, ect) for size and such and have fake papers/pedigree. I have also seen a number with health problems. There are a few exceptions (in the RE line), but you'd have to be determined to seek out a good breeder and make sure they have proof to back what they say and a guarantee. These dogs are basically bred for size/color. They do not resemble an APBT or meet the standard, they are not athletic and have just about no working ability. They have structure problems which leads to health problems and takes away quality of life.

    I'd stay away from blue dogs in general (some judges have talked about making this color a fault), as most people breeding blues are in it for the color fad and ignore temperament and health. They are also doing blue x blue breedings which has been very detrimental to the dogs. Blue is a dilute to begin with and once you start breeding them over and over together you end up with dogs that have skin issues, immue problems and are predisposed to demodex.

    Merle is not excepted and it has also been linked to possible deafness (in other breeds) and rumors to have been brought into the lines by mixing in other breeds (like Catahoula Leapord dogs).

    Albino is not excepted either and there have been linked health problems also.

    If you are serious about breeding do your homework. We can provide you so much information but there are other resources too.

    First you need to research bloodlines. This is how you will learn about which lines throw desirable traits, have longevity, health, temperament and conformation and the characteristics of a good quality APBTs. Just the same you will learn which lines are mixed, have faults, poor health, and are poor quality.

    Its not just the breed and lines you need to study but also breeding itself. Proper care for the female, before, during and after pregnancy. Proper care for the pups. Another very important thing you need to know about is complications during pregnancy, delivery and after. There are many problems that can arise and you need to be prepared to deal with them. Otherwise you could lose your female and possibly your whole litter. Things like eclampsia (I know someone who lost a dog from this), primary uterine inertia, hemorrhage, infection, mastitis, prolasped uterus, if the mom won't nurse or care for the pups you need to know how to keep them warm and will have to bottle feed them, if she kills/eats them you will have to do the same, if she bites one and injures them or exposes bones you will have to care for this wound immediatly and continue treatment to prevent infection. This pup will also require special care. Breeding dogs is far from easy. You also need to make sure she is on a good diet before and very good one after as she will be nursing pups and require a lot. The pups will also need to be weaned and you will have to deworm them (and mom) and give them vaccinations. You also need to be on the look our for signs of illness, like parvo, distemper, ect (even with vaccs there is no guarantee). And anything genetic. If you are a good breeder you will include health guarantee in your contract which ensures against this. You must also asses your pups and be willing to cull. Culling is a must, without it you send a line to crap. Basically you must be willing to deticate a lot of time and money.

    When selecting a dog to breed you should get one from the best stock possible. Your foundation female should be well rounded and balance, she should have positive traints. You definatly need to learn about bloodlines, and look at what the pedigree has to offer. If the dog herself if ok and comes from less then ok dogs its likely that she will produce ok to low quality dogs. If the dog is very good and comes from good to great dogs it is likely she will produce good/great dogs. You want to get a dog from someone who cares about conformation, health and temperament. Someone who has been in the dogs for awhile with proven parents. (Not just Champion bloodlines). You do want to see CH and GR CH as these things are easily recognized. There are also other things which show they are doing right with there dogs which make include UCD, GCG, TT, OFA, ACE.

    You may like your male (as most people are pretty fond of their dogs), but having a sweet "good looking" dog doesn't make them breed quality. No offense to your dog but that really isnt a good reason for them to pass on their genes. Especially if you are fairly new at breeding, genetics and bloodlines you are likely to not know much about production probabilities. You should take a little more time to learn before you make a mistake in haste. I think it is good that you have asked questions and are willing to learn.

    Before breeding any dog something you should think about is what do they have to offer the next generation. Do they have correct conformation? Have you shown the dog with consistent placement or to a Champion title. If you are a long time breeder/show person you will be able to pick out a conformation quality dog without having to title him/her. What are their faults? Everydog has faults. Are these major faults or a just a minor fault? Are these structural problems or just minor faults? How should I combat this weakness? What is this dog drive/working ability? Is it functional for working? Or does it have a temperament issue or structure problem which would inhibit it. What is the dogs overall temperament? Fearful, shy, dominant? Aggressive? Another important factor is health? Does the dog have any health problems which would be genetic? Overall what is the bloodline known for? Very importantly you must ask yourself the same questions about the dogs in the pedigree, because those genes will be a factor. Did any of them have a health problem, temperament or structure problem?

    Champions are great to start with, and proving your dog is correct for their breed is important, but you must remember the whole package, health temperament, working ability, intelligence, ect. Study the standard, study the history of the APBT, study correct temperament. Know your pedigrees and whats behind your dogs, good or bad.

    How you register your dog (or how many registries) is up to you. I would stay stick at least to reputable registries as their are so many crappy ones out there. Dual registration is nice as it give you the chance to title your dog in multiple registries and some registries offer events that others don't.

    You need to learn bloodlines which takes more than a quick summary and you must also remember that strain of that line is important. One persons strain might be very good while another person may have ruined the line and their strain is crap.

    Some lines to stay away from (which are impure would be) Gotti, Grayline, Razor's Edge, Chevy, Dagger, Whopper. Others are pure but not good reps of the breed or may have problems like conformation, health temperament- some watchdog stuff has been ruined (poor structure and health problem one is heart problems), a lot of the York line has been ruined (again bad structure), a lot of the May Day stuff is poorly bred (very ill tempered dogs), most Bullyson (extremely bad structure leading to health problem), there is a lot of crappy bred Colby dogs as it got so popular (this includes health, health temperament and structure problems). A lot of the stuff that might be "popular" doesn't always mean good. Popularity of a line will ruin that line just as quickly as popularity of a breed hurts the breed, too many poor breeders get ahold of the line/breed. There is more, but this is just some.

    Lines I'd say are generally good would be Villines, Boogieman, Old Family Red Nose (although I've seen a lot of crap breeders out there so it depends on the source), Sorrells, Wilke Makit, Redboy/Turtlebuster, some of the Tab stuff is nice, there is some good Nigerino out there but a lot thats overbred, some Redboy/Jocko, some Colby from the right source, some of the old original Bullyson, there are a lot of others.

    You could have a good strain and a bad strain of the same line. I have seen very great Alligator dogs and down right terrible Alligator dogs, so it all depends on where it comes from.
     
  3. Rice and Gravy

    Rice and Gravy New Member

    Thanks True_Pit.

    The sheer size of your reply says a whole lot. I really appreciate the amount of information contained therein.

    At the rate I'm going, I'll be up and ready to -physically- facilitate 2-4 adults and a litter of pups by Jan. 2009. My FIRST goal however is to fill my head, hard drive, and home library with enough knowledge to choose the right dogs with which to breed.

    I have a problem now. If fad breeders are the guys that boast head sizes and other measurements of their dogs, it seems to me that 99% of the people that advertise APBT's online do JUST THAT. So, how do I find a good breeder with the drive, temperament, health, and conformation you speak of?

    Then...

    How do you filter good breeders from bad? I know about the seemingly OBVIOUS clues like thin pups, inhumane environment, etc. But, there must be other more detailed things to look for or ask about.

    However, I still have more questions.

    GOALS.

    I fancy the weight pull activity. I've been to a few local pull events here in SE Michigan as a spectator. I want to get my male involved as he is VERY athletic. So NATURALLY I want to produce dogs which will excel at this activity. Conformation to the Breed Standard is important IMO as are other factors (Health, Temperament, etc.). Funny thing is, I like brindle coats, too.

    So, are the breeding goals of STRENGTH, TEMPERAMENT and CONFORMATION more "noble" than COAT COLOR? The whole "blue" fad motivates me to ask this to an experienced dog person.

    RESOURCES.

    I have realized my lack of knowledge about bloodlines and have been in search of GOOD information on the subject. No Luck. Can you suggest some good reading? Should I educate myself on the fundamentals of genetics?

    What about standards. I want to be able to visit a potential breeder, view his sire and dam, and know immediately if they conform or not. Is there an ADBA pitbull standard versus UKC pitbull standard. The male I own is ADBA registered and I recently applied for his UKC registration only to be shocked that I was asked to provide pictures, pedigree, and ADBA paperwork. THEN, I have to wait for an inspector to approve his application packet. WOW! I thought I'd just fork over some papers and that's it.

    Back to the bloodlines. In my brainstorming, for conformation, I wanted to start with pure Colby and Watchdog blood. I chose these two lines because I remember reading that a Colby dog provided the standard for one of the more trusted registries. Also, Watchdog because of the head structure and dominant temperament typical of those dogs. Pure sources for these lines anyone? What do you mean by "proven parents"? I thought that having champion ancestors was the cream of the crop. Do you mean proven healthy? Hips, elbows, temp. tested, etc.

    Also...

    What does "culling" mean?

    What does "dilute" mean? Is that the same as defect. I heard a rumor that the whole "blue" coat fad was started from a bitch with a "defect" coat color.

    Forgive my ignorance.

    Bloodlines are a push button issue for me. I want to know the oldest ones, the most proven, etc. Every time I ask about this kind of stuff, I get no consistent answer. It's like taboo.

    Lastly, thanks for the warning about the Gotti and RE lines. I always thought some of those dogs favored Mastiffs. :mrgreen: That stock has taken Michigan by storm. Never trusted it.
     
  4. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Well another obvious would be the fact that they are breeding for size, color and away from the standard. If they advertise they breed for any of that then they fad breeders. Finding a good breeder can de difficult. Even other breeders claim to breed for conformation, health, temperament, ect and you can see their dog doesn't just have some faults but some severe structure problems (I'm not sure if they even know what the word conformation means).
    Finding a good breeder might not be easy, there are so many backyard breeders, they don't have to be a fad breeder to be a bad breeder. As far as a good breeder being that you don't have a lot of breeding experience just yet it would be easier for you to look for the obvious good too. Do they have titles on their dog or at least compete with them? How do the dogs look over all in the pictures? Skinny, neglected, shy, ect. It is hard to tell a lot from pics, sometimes dogs look ugly in pictures and fantastic in real life, but do the best you can. What are the pedigrees like? Do they have a lot of titles? What are the bloodlines? From good quality lines are poor quality lines? Do they breed for positive goals, consistency? Or breed just to breed. Do they offer a guarantee?


    Coat color is really irelavent to producing quality dogs with the exception of coat color that is linked to genetic defects. Otherwise the dog is what he is and no better then another coat color. Chosing on the merit of color leaves everything else out and that is why with the blue fad breeders, red nose fad breeders and others who breed for certain colors you have so many health problems popping up.

    Choices should be made on the dogs Conformation, working ability, temperament and health. These are all things to consider as well as pedigree and if the bloodline is known for producing these positive traits.

    Hmmmm, bloodlines are hard. There isn't a specific book on bloodlines really. You just have research them the best you can, talk with other people and experience them for yourself. I think that you should read breed books in general, a lot of these contain a bit about dogs and bloodlines. You should also do some genetic research. Genetics Of The Dog is a good one and other books by Malcom B Willis. There are many others out there too.

    You will have to learn the standard, study and see it in action. You can do this by reading it but it is more then that, look at some nice CHs that seem consistent, go to some shows and see which dogs place. Don't be afraid to ask questions to breeders. Yes, each registry has their own standard. The UKC was the 1st to register the APBT, then later the AKC finally excepted them as AST. The 2 standards were very similar and if you look at old original Staffs they very much look like a true APBT. These dogs resemble Tudor and old Colby dogs. But now there has been an evolution and the AST has been bred away from this. Also in the UKC it is a little more non consistent, it really depends on the judges point of view. It depends whether they are a AST or an APBT judge. The ADBA standard has pretty much remained true to the breed over the years. The UKC standard is still similar, but again depends on the judge as to whats going to place. An ADBA standard dog will look close to the original APBT. I will illustrate this more later.


    Well pure is not always good. It can very well be, but sometimes outcrossing is needed, so don't get too caught up in only wanting pure lines. If you outcross too much or to the wrong dog you can ruin what you are trying to do, but if you breed pure and forget about the dogs/lines faults you can run into a dead end that you can't get out of. It is very hard to find a good breeder of Colby dogs, whether pure or cross. A lot of it is overbred because of the name and popularity and others are very scatterbred. You must also remember that just because a dog from a certain breed was used as a breed standard it doesn't mean those dogs are the same quality today. Being that Primo was used to start the AKC standard doesn't mean that all Colby dogs meet the standard and it must not be forgotten that Primo was born in 1935 which was many years ago and again things can change in that amount of time.
    The same goes for watchdog, some of the original dogs were pretty nice looking dogs with a lot of drive and working ability. But a lot of this has been ruined by people breeding them bigger and for blue color. I don't see a reason to want pure of a certain line per sae, you should look for a line that does have the qualities you want (just as you are doing) and then find a breeder that is using those lines with success and see how they are using it and what they have available.

    Proven parents means they were proven, having Champion ancestors means the ancestors were proven NOT the parents. If you have Champion parents then they are proven. This does include health, temperament and working ability too.

    Cull means to remove a dog from a breeding program as it is not breed quality. A cull would be a dog that is not breed quality. Culling is the act of removing the dog.

    Blue is a dilute of black, if you continue to breed blue to blue you will often end up with a more washed out (diluted) coat, this can lead to health problems and defects. The same goes for red nose, the lighter it goes the more diluted it is.

    Well I can give you more bloodline info, but I will go into it later too. Give you time to digest all this. Some of the originals would be Fighting Peter, Williams, Colby, Con Feeley, Tudor, Heinzl, Corvino, Carver, Boudreaux, Lightner, Wallace, Centipede, this is just to name a few.
     
  5. Sara

    Sara New Member

    I'm sure True covered most of it but I do have to bring this up which may have been forgotten (I'm a little pressed for time at the moment so I haven't read the WHOLE thread...long posts guys!)...

    What will get you a good idea as far as what's out there in terms of true pit bulls is to get out there and show. ADBA is a great org. and I just attended my first show and was greeted very nicely. I think being humble and ready to listen to advice helps in that aspect but you can make connections there too. Connections with people who may likely have the same goals as you may with your own breeding program. I know you like your male but I would try not to hurry into anything. I fancied breeding pit bulls about 6 years ago and with the number of dogs you see in rescue and abused I found it daunting when I really sat down and thought about the implications of adding to the population...6 years later, after I lost my poorly bred female I stumbled upon a very well bred female and decided that the well bred dogs need to overshadow the ones in the news...so went ahead with educating myself and learning from other breeders.

    BEST way to go about getting your feet on the ground (the idea to breed always starts out with a head in the clouds) is to find a breeder you admire and who's goals are similar to your own...and learn as much as possible from that breeder...basically grab yourself a mentor. I had started out breeding Boerboels and even then found a mentor breeder nearby who was candid and helpfull in sharing knowledge...she took me to my first ever dog show and helped me out in how to show and all that jazz. Even trusted me with a dog or two...I decided my heart wasn't in the Boerboels as the breed in all is going AWAY from what my own goals were/are.

    I spent about two years thinking on breeding Pit Bulls and now I'm putting my toe in the water. I've only attended one conformation show but plan on attending more and beefing my dogs' stats up as far as points go and hopefully getting a CH. or two. I think I'll try my little female in WP but want to see how she'll do in Conformation first...I have to figure out if I want to do both or not.

    It's important to prove your dogs for other breeders and serious buyers to take you seriously when it comes time to sell puppies...get out there with your dogs that you hope to use and prove them first and foremost. The objective views of judges are impossible to dispute either in conformation or in any athletic activity.

    You might think about Agility too as pits do excell in that arena as long as they are under control and all that jazz.

    Anyway I'm probably re-stating everything true already said but the most valueable thing you can do if you are serious about breeding is to learn from other breeders...and TAKE YOUR TIME don't rush into breeding just because you have a great male in your opinion...nothing can really surpass learning and it's best to learn from people who have already been there. Saves a lot of heart ache and stress down the road.

    Sara
     
  6. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    That is a good point about a mentor Sara. I was going to mention that having contacts is very important. You should get to know a few good breeders that way you have a chance to learn from them and their experiences. You can also have them answer any questions you might have. Then of course find one who will mentor you and possibly get a dog from them. They will be there to help you along the way with the dog and your kennel in general.

    I think agility is a good idea too. It looks pretty fun for the dogs and I might give it a try. This is one the reasons I chose my last pups. I knew the bloodline and wanted that, the pedigree was nice, conformation, working ability, athletic, temperament, intelligence (problem solving, easy to train), ect I think that these pups would make good candidates for agility and obedience trials. My female learns very quickly and loves to burn energy, so with enough time and patiences she could very well do this. She is also very agile and athletic already, she has a lot of energy and can jump heights easily. Her brother is the same but is a little more stubborn on the training end. Her sister who is the smallest, she is very small (maybe 20lbs) but is able to jump 4 feet with ease, its amazing the height she gets already. They love to run and have good wind. You can find this in many APBTs if you look, it just takes time to seek out good dogs.

    I'll go indepth into bloodlines a little later, when I have more time.
     
  7. Rice and Gravy

    Rice and Gravy New Member

    Finding a mentor is almost as hard as finding a breeder. I know of very knowledgeable breeders, but they breed for specifics. For example,

    One breeder I met had tons of material (some very old) on genetics, breeding, and the APBT in general. One of his books was literally 60 years old. However, this guy bred for size and "bully look" only. I thought it was more to it than that, but how could I debate when the guy sold pups for $2,000 a piece and had whole litter sold or deposited at conception?

    Some would call the guy above a fad breeder and pup miller.

    I don't want to get into generalizations, but the "show" breeders I've met are so "elite" (at least in their own eyes) that mentorship with them has been difficult at best. I'll keep looking, though.

    Thanks True and Sara.

    What other forums do you guys frequent? I'd like to chat about pits and would like to get broader feedback.

    Do you know of any links to the original Watchdog Kennels? I'm like to get some history on that line. Thanks in advance...
     
  8. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Every Breeder out there will breed for certain specifics. I myself like smart dogs, light hearted and smaller, leaner dogs. I like Athletic "typey" pit bulls. It is hard to find some of this stuff but keep looking. Attend events that might bring some of those people out like ADBA sanctioned shows or Weight Pulls. IWPA weight pulls or look for local breed clubs or even working dog clubs. Also as far as a mentor goes, you could even choose a breeder who isn't breeding your type or even breed of dog. Their expertise as a breeder period is helpful.

    Richard Stratton books are good to read where they drop names and bloodlines... What I did in the beginning was take names people put out there and read about them. Old Family Rednose was the first thing I looked up and I read and read...all kinds of stuff... From the names dropped in some of that information I looked them up. I was approached by the local fellow friend of mine because I wanted to Weight Pull and he was willing to help me out...I learned a LOT from him. Your friend. while he may breed for a fad type he still has resources...60 year old books will have Ped. information that could be invaluable to you...you don't have to subscribe to his values to be able to benefit from his knowledge.

    The fellow here in town bred APBT's for different stuff than what I'd like to have. He likes hot little boogers with salt to spare...I don't, but I still like for him to assess what I have, what I'm thinking of getting or what I'm thinking of doing with my dogs before doing it...even down to contractual aggreements, people who've been doing it for a long time are truly full of knowledge you can use regardless. And it's usually quite fun to listen to the stories they have to tell.

    Don't debate a breeder but do ask questions... Why is an invaluable word in the English Language when it comes to learning...and it's definately a way to ask about something you dis-agree with while not offending the person you're asking...What a person sells his/her dogs for shouldn't be a concern...what they know about breeding is all you should worry about...

    True is a GREAT wealth of information test the other guy's theories with True's if you have a question and get out there and ask.

    I would warn you though...don't start out by stating you want to breed...just ask questions about the breed in general and bloodlines...I only come here to talk pits... Other dog boards are out there too...here's one of my favorites and it's a friendly board where there are quite a few people who know about Pit Bulls that check it out.

    Molosser Talk (scroll to down to the bottom right) http://www.moloss.com/
     
  9. Rice and Gravy

    Rice and Gravy New Member

    Thanks, Sara, for the advice.

    I have pretty much adopted that idea of getting the breeding knowledge without "buying into" the type of dog that breeder has.

    I bet that some of the more experienced dog people that post here probably don't take too well to "noobie" breeders and there short sighted questions. I do understand that. Realistically, I won't breed any dogs for at least a couple of years when my priorities are in order.

    Question, though...

    In your experience, do the "bully" style pitbulls place in ADBA/UKC comformation shows? Or do you normally see them more in wp events? You know the Gotti, Razor's Edge, De La Cruz, etc. lines.
     
  10. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Bully style Pit Bulls do not conform to the conformation standard.

    They would be just fine in working events, all though I haven't seen too many. There are a few in the UKC that pull. Don't know about them being in agility or anything like that.
     
  11. Rice and Gravy

    Rice and Gravy New Member

    O.K. I think that I am about to open up a can of worms, now. Just don't understand the thought process behind it. Conformation shows how well a dog physically adheres to the breed standard. So, if bully dogs don't conform due to some major faults (I assume), how would it be permissible to have them in working events representing a breed they don't conform to?

    Are conformation events and working events both viewed as equally important events/titles?
     
  12. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Because working events don't judge conformation. They judge what they are judging and since spay/neutered dogs can compete and rescues why would they only allow dogs that are show quality. It wouldn't really make sense. Shows are for conformation and working events for working. In my pups pedigree their are dogs with titles in both because they compete in both and thats how you prove they have both, not by just doing one.

    I understand what you are saying somewhat. But really it wouldn't make sense to only let show quality dogs do other events. In lots of working events mutts are allowed to compete so who is really saying they are representing any breed? The point isn't to represent a certain breed and prove your dog would be a show Champ, rather their drive, skill and ability. They are only working and having a good time with their owner. I have seen a lot of awesome dogs who were mixed breed rescues do very good in working events.

    So basically they aren't there to represent a certain breed.

    I think both are equally important. It is nice to have a show/working dog. Some dogs are just show dog with no drive, others are working dogs and thats it. So its pretty nice to have both.
     
  13. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    If you don't mind me asking where are you located? You can PM me if you don't want it on the public forum.

    There will likely be a breed club in your area or possibly shows. Shows are the best way to meet people and breeders.

    A lot of the people I got dogs from don't really show anymore, some rarely breed every 3-5yrs and other not at all, one got out of dogs and the other passed away. But I'm glad I have the dogs I do.

    This is some of whats behind my dogs and I find them to be good show and working dogs.

    [​IMG]
    My pups maternal Grand Sire, Butch he's an ACE

    [​IMG]
    This is the female he was bred to Venus, she is a Champion ACE. This is also a littermate to my female Santana's sire. So this would be her Aunt. Santana is Bella's mom.

    [​IMG]
    Venus dam, Champion Angel (I have several of her progeny)

    [​IMG]
    Butch's sire Champion Tucker

    [​IMG]
    Tucker's sire Champion Ace of Ace I Sylver

    [​IMG]
    Tucker's dam Ace Hope (while she only has an Ace title, I think its safe to see she has excellent conformation)

    [​IMG]
    Paternal Grand dam, Ginger, she was pointed in towards Ace, Ginger is also a daughter of Angel

    [​IMG]
    Ginger's sire, Mo Man is pointed in conformation and weight pull, its too bad he will not get a title. When my close friend passed, his owner was also close to them and hasn't been active in showing/breeding anymore.

    [​IMG]
    This is Champion Buck, he was owned by my close. His sire was also owned by my friend Ace Roscoe and bred to his half sister Champion Ace Dutchess Dawn.

    [​IMG]
    Here is my 4xs CH Buck male, Champion Venom, he is a son of Mo Man and my foundation male.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    This is Santana if you haven't seen her before, she is bred down from Roscoe on top. Nediva is the daughter of her and Venom.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    This is Creed, Santana's sire


    This is my husbands foundation female

    [​IMG]
    She is Twister's mom

    She is the great grand dam to River, the brindle male you liked in the other post. He is also in the show pics post, he is now living with Sara as she co owns him.

    [​IMG]
    This is River's dam Val

    [​IMG]
    River's sire Moonshine (his mom is Twister's sister)

    [​IMG]
    This is Val's sire

    [​IMG]
    Val's grand sire GR CH I Warlord

    You can get a good idea of what a show dog looks like. Many of these dogs are also great working dogs.

    Those young ones I spoke of ealier was a really nice breeding, but they only had for sale 1 pup out of 9 I believe. The sister to mine gave us a scare yesterday. Remeber she is the smallest one I talked about. She was in a kennel and always loves to lay on top of her dog house. I guess she decided she wanted out. My husband went outside and ran back in and said loose pup. I flew off the couch and there she was playing with Rubia and then Kodiak. I'm sure she jumped from the top of the house the other 3ft out of the kennel. Pit Bulls are very agile and while this is good it also posses a challenge, so its something to think about with multiple dogs.
     
  14. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Here is my son of Champion Angel
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    This is his sire Sure Shot who is a son of Champion Ace Dutchess Dawn
    [​IMG]

    I need to get those Tyarr dogs posted for you to see also.
     
  15. Sara

    Sara New Member

    To get a complete dog you want both working ability and conformation behind the dog... That's what is ideal and cream of the crop. I like True's dogs because they've got both behind them. I don't think she has one dog that is only conformationally bred and MOST of the dogs behind her own dog's pedigree are both work proven AND conformationally proven. If you want conformationally correct dogs you definately want dogs that have proven themselves in the show ring against the breed conformation standard. Ideally you want one that has proven themselves against others of their breed. Some show organizations don't judge against other dogs but only judge against the breed standard and use that as a point system. International All Breed Canine Association is one of them. While and International Ch. title is great to have through them, it'd be ideal to have at least something like an ADBA or UKC title on the dog as well. This would be what makes up a good breeding dog.

    Since you want to start a kennel you want to look for dogs with a conformation title (if you want to breed toward the breed standard conformationally). If you want to breed dogs for Weight Pull as well as looking correct you have to find dogs that have titles in Weight Pull, not just the show ring to use for breeding. If you wanted Agility dogs you'd need to look for dogs that have the correct temperment to be able to compete in that situation as well as the physical ability to do so (not sure what titles there are out there for Agility or if any pits have those titles) etc...

    Here's a question True... ROM... ROM means that a dog has produced a certain number of Champions... HOW many champions does a dog have to produce before they get a ROM and do they have ROM for performance titled dogs??? I know there was one for fighting back in the day so I was curious how it works in Conformation etc...I was thinking about Twister and Santana...and Venom for that matter... Do you think they'll get ROM??? or is it even possible...?

    Sara
     
  16. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    ROM for girls is 3 and boys 5. I think some other registries have ROM, but not sure. I think its for conformation only. I doubt mine will get it since the registry doesn't offer it there really isn't a way to go about it.

    There are plenty of Pits with agility titles and other titles too, obedience, Schutzhund. Pits in flyball.

    I have a video of one that is OB and Agility titled doing a demo. She also has her Champion title. Their rescue female also has an agility title.

    Anyway they can title like any other dog. You do like you said want the right temperament in a dog and of course physically ability which would be physically sound body.

    That is how I like mine, show and working. Warrior has CH/GR CH so people just assume he is show only bred who don't know the line and breed very well. They also use their dogs for hog hunting which there are no titles.
     
  17. Rice and Gravy

    Rice and Gravy New Member

    True, forgive my french, but your dogs (and those they come from) kick ass! You are giving me a broader sense of what to look for when picking my "foundation dogs".

    BTW, I reside in Southeastern Michigan. PLEASE, tell me if you know clubs in my area. That'd be great.

    There's a ADBA sanctioned Conformation Show this weekend in Lowell, MI (2 hours from me). I found out the day after registration ended. I'll still go just to taste the atmosphere. Might meet some good dog people.

    Honestly, the brindle dog is my fave. He's awesome looking.


    What does ACE mean?

    So, generally, the process I'm reading is to build the rep of the dog first with pointing and championships in both show and work, THEN move on to the breeding. Seems like a pretty balanced attack.

    Sara, your input is also invaluable.
     
  18. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Thanks for the compliment... That brindle dog is Creed right?... My favorite too and seems like a pretty influencial dog too...I really know nothing compared to True though...LOL... But he is one of my favorite dogs on Bella's Pedigree, just his looks! Bella is out of Santana and Twister (FYI)

    ACE is one of the top honors given to an exceptional WP dog. I can't remember exactly how many points you have to get in WP to get an ACE but it's similar to Conformation that each dog is awarded a certain number of points based on his/her standings in any given ADBA Weight Pull event.

    You seem to have the idea in a nutshell. Pedigree stuff is where you turn when you decide what kind of a dog you want within the standard...that takes some time to learn about though, and to decide. I'd been looking into dogs since I got my first pit bull, like 6 or so years ago and still have been asking all kinds of pedigree questions to True and the local fellow in town.

    Sara
     
  19. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Thanks for the compliments, they are greatly appreciated.

    If there is a show then there would have to be a club nearby. There are 2 clubs nearby.

    Great Lakes APBTC Dave Wolf 21812 E. 13 Mile Rd. St. Clair Shores, MI 48082 (586) 296-0940

    Michiana APBTC Jim Nelson P.O. Box 864 Marshall, MI 49068 (517) 663-8040

    There is also an AADR club and show in MI, I've been wanting to go to that one. That one is ran by Norrod.

    I guess you missed the great lakes show, it was the 1st weekend in June.
    Who told you that registration ended? CH of CH can always pre register and a lot of clubs (probably that one) are offering pre registration for any class. But you can always take your dog and register at the show if you missed the cut off date for preregistration. Registration usually ends around 9:30-10:30 depending on the club and if its saturday or sunday.

    Thanks for the compliments on Creed, although he isn't my dog I do agree that he is very nice looking. I wish his owner would have finished him. But he stopped showing and doesn't do much now but work and take care of his mom, which I understand.

    ACE is a weight pull title. Just like in conformation you get points for each win. ACE requires a 100 points.

    I think you have the idea pretty right. You still need to learn about breeding too in general to be on the safe side for your female/pups sake.

    I think the show is a good idea. If you still want to enter you can, to get you and your dog experience. Some people are nervous their 1st show or don't know so much what to do. But the more experience you get the better for you and your dog, you will learn how to handle better. The dog will do better because you are confident and because he/she has learned what they are doing. You will also be better prepared next time if he isn't in good shape now. But it doesn't hurt to show. Even if you don't show him there are a lot of breeders there who I'm sure would talk to you, and you ask their opinions on your dog and also ask the judge their opinion to get a good idea whether you enter or not.
     
  20. Rice and Gravy

    Rice and Gravy New Member

    Thanks again, True, for the contact info. Yes, I did miss the June show. I think now (after rereading the flyer I received from the ADBA) that I misunderstood the whole pre-registration thing. I thought that one wanting to enter could ONLY preregister. I know better now.
     

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