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To attack or not to attack?

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by BronxthePit, Sep 29, 2004.



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To attack or not to attack?

Poll closed Oct 6, 2004.
  1. I think its wrong to teach your dog to attack on command!

    0 vote(s)
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  2. Heck , I taught mine how to!

    0 vote(s)
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  1. BronxthePit

    BronxthePit New Member

    Do you think its wrong to teach your dog how to attack?
     
  2. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    I would never attempt to teach a dog to attack on command, this means big trouble in most cases. Once they have taught the dog to be aggressive and attack they don't know how to stop the dog or get it off of whatever or whoever its attacking. Owners should never attempt to teach their dogs attack training. Its one reason there are many attacks and maulings. Its one reason why certain breeds like Pit Bulls are under BSL. They and other breeds like Rottweilers have been singled out by people who want attack dogs. When they use them to attack law enforcement and they are shooting and trying to kill these dogs and they don't stop attacking it makes them seem very dangerous and not easy to stop. These people don't understand the dogs are only doing what they are trained to do.

    Some one in the line at Wal Mart just started talking to me out of the blue, then it came to his dogs. Two big powerful Rottweilers who he's trained. Well his grand daughter told them to attack and they came running from around the back yard. He was there and everything was okay, except one still jumped the guy and broke his collar bone. I know he's semi responsible I guess and he doesn't have vicious dogs. But its irresponsible to give a child this command in order to use it like its some game. Because its not a game and people could be seriously injured. You see his friend was over and was going to play with the girl and grab her I guess and they warned him of the dog, which was this little dog on the porch. They said oh thats not the one you have to worry about. So when she said the words the other dogs came. Think what could have happened and what could still happen in the future if she gives them a command. kids don't understand what CAN happen, especially when you teach them its a game.
    The owner said his dogs are great with kids and wonderful dogs, its all in how they are raised and trained. I said I agree and that I have Pit Bulls. Because obviously they also have a bad reputation buts its not their own fault. But then he says he can't say too much good about Pit Bulls, as he emptied a full clip on one and it didn't want to go down. This was back when he was in the military and some one told the dog to attack him. So it was loyally following the orders of its master (wow just like his dogs were) and didn't want to go down, stop, quit, ect because thats whats in the breed, never give up until they do finally die and they are hard to kill. But since this dog that happened to be a Pit Bull was coming after HIM it was a totally different thing then his Rotts doing it to some one else.
    Think about most people who want their dog to attack? I've met some of these people and they dont seem to realize at all their dog could actually hurt or kill some one, they just want the big, bad dog everyone is afraid of.

    Personal protection, attack, guard and man stopping training are all good things. They require a stable dog with a good temperament and a master of OB. They are intellegent and can make decisions based on training and problem solving and also listen to all commands given including watch, attack and stop. This is done by profesionals who know what they are doing and understand dog behavior. Many breeders/trainers require you to take a class before you can begin training with your dog or buy one of their already trained animals. The class teaches you the dos and donts. It also teaches you what to expect and how to handle situations. As well as the training itself you learn how to properly handle your dog. This also isn't a one time thing and most under go a refresher course that is sometimes monthly to run the dogs through the "paces" and make sure they stay "up to date" on everything. From OB to commands. When done this way it is very safe and effective. Its not wrong, but not needed in most cases. Law enforcement uses this and even people who just do personal protection ring sports will do this. And people who truly want a personal protection dog who is a well adjusted family member and not a danger to society.
     
  3. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    How can you add to that? I guess one could take the opposite side and say "Hell Yeah teach that dog to attack things" Im not sure anyone's going to say that.
     
  4. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    I, personally, would never attempt to do personal protection or attack training on any dog myself. If I felt a need for personal protection, I would likely buy an extremely well bred (performance bred), stable minded GSD and have a professional train it, as well as training courses for myself and my dog/me as a team. I would never recommend this type of training for APBTs for 2 resons - human aggression goes against their very nature (besides, if I needed protecting, I am confident they would protect me) and also I wouldn't want to risk adding to the negative stigma against the breed (you know - having a trained 'man aggressive' APBT).
     
  5. BronxthePit

    BronxthePit New Member

    yeah i am 50/50 on the matter myself. My wife and I were discussing the matter earlier. I have taught my boxer mix how to attack or sick however you want to word it on command. And thats an on going training. Alot of time has been and continues to be spent on teaching her when to stop even when she may not want to. She knows it well but i wont stop until it becomes second nature just like when she hears come or sit. BUT in agreement shes not like a pitbull, pits have a determination,,,,sort of a self terminating desire to please that can be a bad thing... i thnk when it comes to bronx i will let his natural desire to protect do its job. i agree its a big risk to train a PITBULL to attack. Dogs in general..eh...def. up to its owner.
     
  6. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    I like the other point you make spenc, I think most dogs would recognize a genuine threat and defend it "pack". Im not sure my dog wouldnt run off, But I think one of the great things about the breed is its ability to naturally discern between times when to show defensive aggresion and not.
     
  7. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Luckily for me, I have never been put in a situation where I had to test their loyalty/courage/love for me - whatever you want to classify it as. However, on two seperate occasions, there were circumstances that Maggie was uncomfortable with and let the other person know about it. The first time, she was sitting with me on our front porch waiting for a friend one night. Well, our porch lights don't shine much past the porch and when my friend came up, Maggie just heard her at first, and she growled very ominously. I told her, "It's okay" and she stopped. Similar situation more recently, but I was walking her at night at the apt complex when a man walked up from behind to pass us. She growled, I told her it was okay and she stopped.
     
  8. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Amen spencerpits. My boy protected me and I feel very confident when walking him. He's the one thats the big ol' teddy bear. The super lovey, all the happy dog. I can barely show him because he starts wagging his tail, then wiggling, then wanting the judge to pet him and getting all happy. Everytime we meet someone he goes "nuts', he gets so excited and can't sit still. Well I was walking him late one night, we ran into some "kids' I guess you'd say, then we ran into guy. Well we were walking straight down the side walk and them man comes straight around the corner and almost runs right into us. He's like whoa and jumps back surprised and my dogs just happy. Then we walk on, cross the street and go to walk back. We're getting to the end of the buildings and then there a parking lot. Across the street a man answers his cell phone and starts talking, so my dog starts wagging his tail and getting happy. At the end of the buildings where the parking lot is there is this man. I know him, he's a very crazy man. He molested his daughter for years and used to beat his now ex-wife. He is always trying to talk to young girls and women. He acts like he's "slow' and really "nice" TOO NICE. He's tried following a couple times when I was walking from place and place and talking with me. I've just blown him off and gone abuot my business. Well I was walking with a friend and we both had our dogs. We were actually walking to her vehicle which was just past that parking lot in another. The guy is there smoking (weed in public) and I stop 2 buildings down from where he is. I start up a convo with my friend hoping he goes away. I just sit there for awhile and he won't move. I don't want to walk by him at all, I don't feel like dealing with him. But I can't stand there forever so I decide to walk by, this is maybe 2 mins after my dog was excited by hearing some guy talk on a cell. When we get to where he was at the parking lot I try to ignore and avoid him and walk in the street right by the side walk, instead of the side walk. He is staring at me but doesn't say a word, my dog puts him ears back and growls like hell at him. I wasn't at all alarmed by this because I know my dogs stable temperament and soundness, I knew the situation, I knew the tension I was feeling and I know what type of freak he is. Because I have well tempered dogs I trust their judgement, especially when I know the whole situation. I don't tolerate man biters or human aggression, but I do of course allow my dogs to protect me when the need calls for it and I'm threatened. In fact when this guy was with his family I had a puppy (val) she didn't want anything to do with him. She wasn't aggressive of course, just withdrawn she didn't want him to to pet her, she didn't react happy and excited like with other people and she would walk oppsite of where he was. Dogs can really discern and Pit Bulls are especially good at this, its unbelievable.

    My Boxer knew a few commands, like barking/growling on command. And howling also, that was a funny one. She would put her lips together and make an "O" it was such a sad sound.
     
  9. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    What you said about your boy (Ven?) made me think of something that's almost ironic - Maggie is the absolute most people friendly out of the bunch, but it's her that has shown protective tendancies on those 2 occasions. I mean, they're all people friendly, but she will almost pull your arm off to go say hi to someone - ya know?
     
  10. BronxthePit

    BronxthePit New Member

    So TP your a woman :p i lost that bet .....anyway..

    That is exactly why I trained my boxer mix(speed/brains and strength). to be a guard dog. feel/think what ya want. I feel alot more comfortable that my wife goes running/jogging with my boxer and ....in a couple months my pitty. When someone suspicious comes around , her hair stands up ,she growls + barks all the while she comes and sits and your side tensed and waiting for the ethier ITS OK, STAY , or three part command ..a slap on the butt a point at the target and "GO GET EM!".

    as far as the other comments about having to get rid of your dogs. I disagree with that. I would LOVE for someone to try to take me to court because they let their dogs run unleashed which challanged my leashed dogs. Once i was done with my countersuit they would not be able to afford another dog. No one can press charges against you or your dogs with a situation like that. They are responsible for their dogs and thus forfeited that responsibility by allowing them to roam off the leash. Thats like trying to sue someone who hit your dog by car because you let it run free and it ran in the street. YOU CAN"T. Now if someone let their dog run free and it attacked and killed your leashed dog..or broke into your yard and killed your pets...thats a different story.

    let someonone try to sue because of my dog attacking a known pervert/pedophile that was following or being suspicious around my wife while she was out or out and jogging.. PLEASE...TRY ME! that falls under self-defense. its his/her fault for being a pedophile/thug, not anyone elses, no one should have to feel like possible vicitims because these freaks and thugs are allowed to walk the streets. what they get coming to them is their own fault. for their sake...better my dog attack them than my shotgun.
     
  11. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    Fortunately I dont live in that kind of enviroment where those are real concerns. All of those ideal senarios you mentioned make a good case for protection work. However, I think True_pits makes a good case in saying that the danger lies in the senarios that are not ideal, the one we've yet to think of, and the moments where our animals might take the offensive by using its own judgment instead of ours. Dogs do have wills that extend beyond ours, period.Of course we all take our own risks and only we know the finer points of our own situations and animals. I prefer to rely on the perception of a threat, where someone would have to be an idiot to try and harm you with a dog that looked like mine, because they dont know weather it will attack or not. Keep in mind, most people that will rob, rape or kill you arnt idiots, they are cold, calculating criminals that prey on the defenseless. I think just having a pit bull, whether or not it will do anything, is in itself a prevention.
     
  12. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Bronx you are very right about the laws, the attackers and the loose dogs. But it doesn't work like that everywhere. If my dog is on a leash and some one's loose dog attacks mine and my dog in turn hurts it they can easily sue me and might win. Criminals have sued because of dog attacks, being shot, and falling down and being injured on their victims property and the world is so insane these days that some of these cases have been won. I can never understand the logic behind it. It IS self defense however you can barely defend yourself in this day and age without having a lawsuit slapped on you. Now in a lot of cases they probably wouldn't win, but its still a big drawn out battle you have to go through and spend money on and they might win depending on their lawyer and the judge. If some one comes to attack ME and is going to rape and kill me and I stab them they can sue me for nerve damage, its so ridiculous and irritating. Same thing people do with their dogs, the Pit Bull is evil and it doesn't matter whats justice, it matters what the judge thinks is "right".
     
  13. Angie

    Angie New Member

    People can sue for the stupidest things. I heard about this one woman that was in McDonalds and spilt coffee on herslef. She sued McDonalds because the coffee was too hot and burned her.

    There was this other story where this woman was walking in a furniture store with her kid. Her kid was running around and she tripped over the kid... HER kid. And sued the store.

    Criminals sue because they broke into someones house and got attacked by a dog.

    Its rediciolus (sp?)
     
  14. MaxKellyAST

    MaxKellyAST New Member

    off topic but I think the issue with the mcdonals thing was that the coffee was kept so hot as to cause severe burns. They changed the temperature that the coffee was kept at. I dont think it should be so hot that in the event of a spill one should really be concerned about third degree burns.
    I dont know all the facts however, im just paraphrasing from what ive heard. Could this be a compared to, we know that some dogs will bite in every breed, but is it ok to have a dog bite that could result in super severe injury and even death?
     
  15. BronxthePit

    BronxthePit New Member

    RE dogs : all very true but hey what you can you do?

    NO!!! what P's me off.... HTH CAN THESE STUPID OBESE*....

    *BIG disclaimer on this one :D Not sayign people who were born with weight issues. im talking about the people who eat themselves into the grave because they are to lazy to do something about, its basically self-mutilation.cause hell im a slightly pudgy but i do something about it....anyway back to my story....PEOPLE SUEING MCDONALDS BECAUSE THE FOOD MAKES THEM GAIN WEIGHT!?!?!? WTH!?!? HONESTLY!? WHY NOT SUE EVERYONE WHO SELLS FOOD YOU LANGUAGE EDIT !!! GET OFF YOU LANGUAGE EDIT AND DO SOMETHING INSTEAD OF TRYING TO BLAME THE WORLD AND MAKE EVERYONE ELSE SUFFER FOR YOU FREAKING ISSUES!

    im sorry but when MCd's got rid of supersized stuff because of that..that was all she wrote.... ahem ok im done ranting for now :mrgreen:
     
  16. SugarLovesPits

    SugarLovesPits New Member

    as far as the attacking issue, my older male does know "watch him" and "get him" however he knows get him means take him down and hold him he won't bite if he dosn't have too. The only way he'd actually bite and do damage is if someone tried to hurt me or my children. He did kill a dog German Shepard about 2 yrs. ago but only because it ran into my yard and charged me growling bearing it's teeth the whole nine basically it was me or him and Jayson did what he had too to save my life I didn't tell him to do it either. The owner of the shepard tried to sue me but she lost because the dog was on my property off leash he had none of his shots an imbedded collar and was under weight they ended up charging her with animal cruelty since my dog was current on all his shots vet care ect. and was on a dog run at the time she couldn't touch me! Sometimes I wish it wa her that wondered into my yard! I feel bad that that dog had to lose it's life when it obviously didn't have a very good one to begin with! But like i said it was me or him, my dog was only protecting me.
     
  17. Sara

    Sara New Member

    I just had to comment.

    First I don't beleive in training APBT's in Personal Protection work for true protection... There is "sport" type work that is strictly for competitions and I think that's okay where experienced trainers and handlers are concerned. Not for Joe Blow to attempt on his own...

    On the other hand I also raise those Mastiffs I tend to mention and they're a guardian breed... To test their temperment to make sure they are correct to standard you almost HAVE to do some kind of "attack" type training. This is to ensure the dogs are "correct" and in fact to ensure the dogs are SAFE as in safe for people to interact with etc... I know it seems odd that it helps insure that the dog is safe but there are a couple things at work in this type of training. For instance...some people were talking about what constitutes a good breeding dog and one woman pointed out that if at any time the dog was car sick she would not breed the dog because it indicated that the dog had "weak nerves"... The extreme of a weak nerved dog would be a fear biter. What protection and defense training does for dogs that are bred to guard is make sure that the dog has the NERVES to be able to patient enough to protect in an intellegent manner rather than to attack anything that they may FEEL is threatening to them... They are Animals so they're not QUITE as intellegent as we give them credit...

    So there are folks out there training their dogs for the purpose of creating STABLE protection dogs... But there are also thugs soo....there are always pros and cons...
     
  18. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    It all makes sense to me Sara, people on the otherside just find that so hard to believe. Protection training requires stability its a lot different then thugs and irresponsible owners training their dogs to be mean and aggressive and most ARE essentially fear biters. If you look at many of them, they are scared and there reaction is to bluff and act aggressive and in some cases attack which is usually on an innocent victim. A properly trained protection dogs is I think one of the safest dogs to have around.
     
  19. BronxthePit

    BronxthePit New Member

    to sugar i say : :0020: \:D/


    to everyone else ; :-({|= =D>

    another half and half issue i guess. ethier your for it or your not.

    IMO it allll depends on the owner/temperment of the dog(s). I've known plenty of success stories of properly trained dogs (pitts,rotts,etc) by 'joe smoe'. Not everyone wants a 'GSD'. but then again i guess you'd hve to specify what joe smoe means. if its just a dumb individual who just wants a mean dog than i HIGHLY AGREE. however if its everyone thats not a 'certified' dog trainer than i HIGHLY DISAGREE.
     
  20. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Even if attempted by a professional, I still don't think it'd be a good idea to train an APBT for protection work. Not that an APBT couldn't excel at the work - I think they'd do great - but there is just so much bad press surrounding the breed that I just wouldn't suggest it.
     
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