To DeLauk, do you have any insight on this?

I tried sending you a pm, but I cant get it out of my pm out box.

I am wondering if you have any experience with lipfold pyoderma?

About 2 years ago, Jake my lab started getting this brown gunk in the little fold on both sides of his bottom back of his mouth. it gets on everything and at times it turns raw. and his eyes get weepy. I have been to 3 vets with this. the first said its just old mans disease (he is . I was no, he is wrong. I went to a different vet and she said it was lipfold pyderma, gave him antiobiotics, it went away, but just came back again. She did say it may need to be cultured to determine what type of bacteria it is and suggested an illimation diet. I said I was doing that. I went to a third vet who practiced holisticly and said it was from a yeast overgrowth and put him on raw, which is a blend of beef heart, chicken necks and backs and nzymes and probiotics, but that it could take months to heal. Well here it is over a year and he still has it. he also has had reoccuring hot spots, since we moved here 5 years ago. I attributed it to the extreme hot summer, since he only got them in the summer, until recently when one was triggered by a tick bite. So everytime he goes on antibiotics for his hot spots, his pyoderma clears up only to come back after a few weeks

Now, this did start after I changed his diet to Innova, he also started to chew his body a lot. So I put him on a few allergy foods, natural balance duck and potato, california natural, which only had lamb rice and sunflower oil, as soon as he started that, he chewed like crazy, so I started thinking I wonder if he is allergic to nuts? because all of the premium foods even, allergy food, sunflower and flaxseed arel listed as one of the top ingredients.

So I cut out all supplements too , because they had either sunflower or flaxseed oil, and he is not chewing anymore. But now I wonder if his pyoderma maybe be caused by a reaction to chicken? and if so how does that start a baterial infection?

I think he used to eat nutro chicken and rice before I put him on innova but I cant remember, it may have been the lamb but the innova was chicken and now he is eatiing chicken necks and backs.

I think its time for a culture, but the vet I have been taking him too is the one that said its old man disease, I will tell him, I want a culture done. The reason I am staying with him because of history and Jake also has tumors they are monitoring (all are fatty so no issues there) except he has a new one that is suspicous and the vet said it needed to get bigger befire he could biopsy, which I think its gornw enought ot be done.

So, in general, do you think chicken could be the culprit and if not what other things trigger it that you have seen.

and what exactly does a culture do? I just read that somtimes its cause by systemic bacteria. and need special and long term treatment. he was just on a sulpha based antibiotic (a first) for 3 weeks for his hot spot. and I thought maybe this new antibiotic will clear up the pyoderma permenantly, nope, it came back a few days ago after being off the antiobotics for almost a month.


I am just so perplexed and see if you hav enayinsight from your experience.

thanks

Honeybear

 

We see a lot of lip fold pyoderma in cocker spaniels. The lip fold is warm and moist; the perfect environment for bacteria or yeast to overgrow. Sometimes it can be controlled by topical application of antibitotic ointment and daily cleaning with a benzoyl peroxide shampoo or mild ear cleaning solution along with the oral antibiotics. It can also be beneficial to have the area clipped close, either by your vet or a groomer. You can do it yourself too, if you invest in a small clipper.

If it becomes chronic, there's a relatively simple surgical procedure to reconstruct the lip fold called cheiloplatsty. Eliminate the lip fold and you eliminate the environment the bacteria and yeast can grow in. Voila, no more lip fold pyoderma.

 

shine, I wish it were as simple as removing the folds, the problem is jake is a lab, and he doesnt have those folds, so there is nothing to remove. like the dogs that normally get this, its like atypical pyroderma.

I have done everything thing you have suggested, the cleaning solution, topical antibiotics, oral antibiotics, it clears and then just comes back. that why I was curious about info on a possible systemic infection and doing cultures.



just at my wits end

 

Hugs to you and Jake Honeybears--I feel your pain.

I've never heard of this condition but I do know about cultures--in humans that is. We do bacteria identification and sensitivities on humans--I would think it would be the same with animals. The bacteria is identified and tested with various antibiotics to find the best antibiotic for treatment. In my opinion, antibiotics without a culture is basically a shot in the dark. Often an infection will be caused by a PROBABLE bacteria--like a boil is probably staph or strep. So they give the antibiotic most likely to kill those bugs--I see this reasoning. Seems to me the culture should have already been done. Now that he has been on antibiotics, the integrity of the culture may have been compromised. Another way folks look at this is that if the antibiotic didn't treat the infection, whatever is causing it will still grow on a culture. I dunno, I just do the work. But I do know that nasty, nasty bugs live in animals' mouths naturally.

Also, I am wondering if it could be yeast like shine said--antibiotics won't help that--actually hurt it. Could the fact he was on an antibiotic have allowed yeast to take over in his lip fold? Just guessing here...I don't know the time frame. And how old is he? Anyways, good luck. I'm thinking about you both.

 

coppersmom, thanks for the info on cultures and bacteria. this problem started out 2 years ago before he was a lot of antibiotics for his hot spots. as for yeast, that is what the holistic vet thought so he has been on probiotics and high doses of vitamin C to hopefully rid his body of any yeast for a year now.

Its got to be some type of bacteria because it does clear up when he is on them for his hot spots only to return shortly after, must be some nasty bugger. I think what I am going to is wait a month so vet can get a clear culture and help his immune system build back up. I know antibiotics are nasty an d compromise it. I you are right the antibiotics they are puttin him on for his hot spot may jjust be making what is causing his pyoderma to be resistant since he is being treated for that ailment.

honeybear

 

:? I sent you a PM before I saw this thread as theres no folds to cut back next step would be the cultures. I sent you some good links also.