posted 01-03-2004 09:56 PM         

"When the adult teeth come in it is common for the males to show the pups who the boss is, although it is rare for a male to actually kill off his offspring just to do it."

I was wondering if the male actually knows the dogs are his. I'm not saying dogs are dumb by any means, but how are they going to know that this other dog is their child. I have seen fathers/sons kill one another several times. At different ages, I just didn't think they would realize that they were father and son. Moms will kill their kids too after a certain age. I was thinking that is because they don't know its their child (not as pups but as adults) and also the pups would be older and weaned so its just like any other adult dog. They are in a different mode then their parenting mode where they nutured these dogs as pups. Now its like that offspring is just any other adult dog. Its really not uncommon for the mom to kill them and act aggressivly once they are weaned though either and then they are still pups.

I really DON'T like puppy killers but I'll tolerate it if I like the dog and prevent the dog from killing pups of course. I agree that if you look into it most males usually won't kill pups, their offspring or not. The pup isn't threatning, or going to be harmful and they certainly are no fun for fighting. In one of Strattons books I saw a picture of Hammonds' Bruno a 2 time winner with a litter of pups. Many male match dogs can be around pups, for the reasons I said above. I guess I never put any thought into puppy killers before.

posted 01-04-2004 06:50 AM         

Think of the times when you have seen the adult mother going after one of her pups? When does the puppy breath leave the puppy and when do the adult teeth begin to come in?
Stabilty for the male that I speak of is his own self confidence. Think of the old game dogs and the ones from today. They did/do go around the puppies and view them as NO threat. The mother instinct is very different. She will terminate for various reasons most of which we would not understand.
Fish-You would have to study them, lol.
The Male K-9 should not kill other pups(under 12 weeks in general) at all.

>>>>>>>>I have seen fathers/sons kill one another several times. At different ages, I just didn't think they would realize that they were father and son. Moms will kill their kids too after a certain age.<<<<<<<<

posted 01-04-2004 08:18 AM         

My male has also attempted this through the glass door of the house, he was not allowed around the babies from birth...

I've also witness personally a male attacking puppies from a litter that were not his. I under stand that reason...

Its wierd, females will do the same. I suppose they know when something is wrong with a pup...or they can't feed it???

posted 01-05-2004 12:58 PM         

Recently would be one of my females when she was at the breeders still. The pups were put in their own pen because they had just been weaned and the mother away. The one I got excaped the pen and ran up to the mother. I'm sure she recognized that one as mom? I think pups would realize thats their mother just like a baby knows mom from others? Anyway she ran up to her mom who grabbed her and shook the crap out of her and nearly killed her. They thought she wasn't going the make it, the vet said slim chance. She ripped her open from shoulder to back and this was a tiny pup so its going to be pretty bad. Then she got a huge abcess. With LOTS of care and nursing and fighting off infection she lived. Had the lump til she was about 4 or so months and still carries the scare.
Right now another litter a few days over 8 weeks, mom isn't too nice with them anymore. They are seperated have been for about a week. If one were allowed by her she'd probably kill it.
"The mother instinct is very different. She will terminate for various reasons most of which we would not understand."
There has to be some theory as to why mothers do this?

Maybe the fish is just hungry...lol. Don't some fish eat eggs?

I understand about self confidence, its the same way most of my dogs are not bothered by the little yippy yappy her dog biting at their face and yapping at them. On the other hand if that lil doggie were to run they'd probably chase and grab the lil dog. Prey instinct I would think on that one.

"Think of the old game dogs and the ones from today."

The 2 puppy killers I know today ARE game dogs. Maybe they would be considered unstable, one has almost been culled a couple times because of his actions to kill pups by his owner. I guess that is only two and my male doesn't ALWAYS go after them. I'm actually thinking his is more of a jealousy thing. He will be just fine with a pup but if he thinks that pup is getting something he's not he wouldn't hesitate to grab it. He was just with one of my females as a pup and was just fine with her. Then the same female who was almost killed by her dam excaped played with one of my older females, got her away from her and she ran up to the male and he grabbed her.
I had this male with another female pup and they played she followed him, then she reached up and bit him in the goods and he penned her to the grown and growled. But he didn't attack her. The only time I think he's ever tried to get one if when they have gotten some type of attention in front of him. I won't risk a pup around him though its just not worth it. I have seen him too many times growl, and got a couple pups. So he's not allowed to play with them anymore.
Why do they sometimes grab them like that? Fine then all of the sudden WAM!