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Is it true that Pit Bulls can just "snap"?

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by fawnbrindle, Apr 9, 2004.



  1. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    If anyone has ever watched a match between 2 Pits that is hardly if any blood. I DO know that even though a Mastiff is larger and people would think them to have more jaw power than a Pit, a Mastiff bites and then releases mostly while a Pit usually holds strong. That is what I mean by bite strength. A Pit doesnt have locking jaws, just has the muscle power and will to HOLD ON. They dont have the sharp teeth as other breeds and they dont bite and shred like other biting caused by other breeds. They Bite and hold, instead od trying to tear and shred. My father had told me that a many fights he had seen resulted in little or no blood. That the dogs grabbed and held on when they got a good bite. That sometime the dogs are seperated and re-released. They werent out to rip the other dog apart. There is no growling, no barking etc when in the Pit.
    Bruising, broken bones, deep puncture wounds are all the result of a Pit fight. Like I said I didnt base my opinion on facts, but I ASSUME the pit Bull jaw strength is stronger than any breed just because they can HOLD for LONG periods of time unlike other breeds, and because their jaws are wide and allow a good bite and then hold on. Ill put it this way then, they have some of the STRONGEST jaws in the canine world. better? lol My opinion of couyrse, not a fact.
     
  2. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    Love brindle dogs? I have a couple pics for ya then...

    I own a blue brindle and had to put down a black brindle recently for a incurable condition. Here is a couple pics of my Foolish and (RIP) Molly.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Here is Molly, She was AKC AM Staff. RIP Molly.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    Here is Foolish when he was 9 months old, wow long time ago it seems. He will be 3 May 14th of this year.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. loves-da-pits

    loves-da-pits New Member

    Im glad I have never seen a P.B. fight. A popular myth is that P.B. have locking jaws with 1,600 LBS per square inch biting pressure. The anatomy of the P.B. jaw and skull is no different than that of any breed. Yes, the skull is wide and the muscles well developed, but no mechanism exisit that would allow the jaws to lock in place. Besides, how would the dog eat? As for their strength, P.B. do have strong jaws, but accurately mesuring biting pressure in dogs is impossible, and no scientific comparisons of jaw strength have been publishished. With any strong dog, it's not so much the strenghth of the bite as it is the in intentions and the determinatons of the dog that decides how serious a bite is.
     
  5. goob

    goob New Member

    If there's never been an actual study (which there likely never will be, because it'd be nearly impossible to get statistics are accurate, nevermind able to be compared between breeds), then there are NO facts on the issue aside from that there is currently NO way of telling. You may have your opinions, but to put them out as proven or factual is wrong.

    Other "facts" from this article http://www.edba.org.au/courier.html :
    A Pit Bull bite is three times worse than a Rottweilers.
    And they know this how?

    A Pit Bull does not lock its jaw as do other dogs, but it lower jaw scissors back and forth to rend flesh from the bone.
    There aren't even words for that one :roll:

    Pit Bulls are bred from Staffordshire Bull Terriers – Gaining their incredible musculature - and Bull Mastiffs Gaining a Cold-Hearted lack of emotion and Phenomenal resistance to pain.
    Uhhhh.... Wrong. But kind of amusing to imagine what else these people make up and publish as "fact".

    And here is the page that preceeds the one you linked, you can get an idea as to how the site creators for for the media, and the lies that were spewed in that article.
    http://www.edba.org.au/media.html

    This site:
    http://flfl.essortment.com/informationonp_rqvi.htm states that (this is a direct quote) "They can be socialized to accept other animals.".... this after you were carrying on in another thread about how such advice is dangerous. So much for credible sources.

    No, they were used because they had the tenacity to keep a hold and stay in the fight even after getting thrashed. Keeping a hold on another animal has nothing to do with the amount of pressure exerted by a dog's jaws, two different factors at work.

    I could be wrong, but I think the Dade county laws include ABs as "pit bulls" under their definition of the breed as per BSL. It may have been somwhere else I saw, but it's not uncommon for ABs to be grouped in with the other "pit bull" breeds. It's possible that that's why they said they are pit bulls and illegal, or it's possible that they're as ignorant about APBT ID as they are about its characteristics.

    I agree with True_pits about visible damage not being a good indication of the dog's opponents' power... there are other factors that would have to be weighed in as well. In your case, the APBT's mouth would be relatively smaller in comparison to his target, so he may have had a hard time getting ahold of him. The mastiff also had a height/weight advantage, so he may have been able to avoid some heavier blows. Another thing to consider is that a furious fighter is often just that, and may not land many significant blows. When our smaller non-APBTs get into the occasional scrap, they're teeth flashing all over the place, but very little damage, and if it is, it's usually a scratch or tear, not a puncture. That's not to say that the mastiff would invariably be victorious in such a situation, but that he may have had some advantages as opposed to the APBT in this particular scenario (though again, it could have gone differently if not broken up quickly, who can tell).

    My opinion on the whole matter....

    There are a lot of breeds out there that have lots of questionable dogs due to excessive and indiscriminate breeding, Cockers, Dalmations, Chows, those are just a couple that come to mind right away. I've even met some "off" labs, which are a very popular breed in my area, extremely overbred. Anytime you have this type of overbreeding going on, you'll see by-products like unhealthy dogs, crappy temperaments, etc. That said, most dogs do give warning before a bite, people either just choose to ignore it or are too ignorant to realize their dog is trying to tell them something.

    It's pretty much a moot point what breed has the strongest jaws, if a large or even medium dog launches themself at someone with intent to maim or kill them, they're going to cause serious damage unless the situation is handled quickly. In addition, jaw strength wouldn't factor into many attacks, these dogs are not going to be consitently biting firmly and deeply as they attack, but going for whatever they can get, how they can get it (which is why you often see a lot of tears on dog attack victims).
     
  6. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    I never said my opinions were a fact. I ALWAYS make sure I say that my opinions are based on just that. I said there are people that defend both sides of the "questionable" jaw strength etc of a Pit Bull. I never based any of my post on fact but on my opinion and personal experience with Pits and such.
    [/quote]You may have your opinions, but to put them out as proven or factual is wrong

    I never said training is wrong. I only said do not expext training to reprogram a Pit Bulls genetics, breeding and history. I ONLY stated that training can help, and in some cases do a 380 on a dog but I personally would NEVER trust ONLY training to keep a Pit Bull from a fight. Any dog at any incident can be provoked to act agressivley but ESPECIALLY a dog agressive breed as such. As I have said before a dog is a dog and you cannot leave them unsupervised or unattended. Even when you are present it is OUR jobs to make sure a situation doesnt approach the dog that could provoke it.

    I disagree and again it is MATTER OF OPINION. My opinions arent based on facts but on experience and such aquired by myself.

    I feel that smaller dogs have the advantage because they can move swiftly, get into positions quicker, and are lighter on their feet, as a larger dog is heavier, could get winded quicker, and cannot move as fast as a smaller dog. (AGAIN not a fact but MY OPINION which I am entitled to)



     
  7. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    Pit bulls fight because they were selectively bred for it, for many, many generations. Just like Labs instinctively fetch (even though you don't teach them to do it), or Greyhounds and huskies run, etc. Those dogs do not do what they do because they want to please you--they do it because their wiring tells them it is the right thing to do. No matter how much you train, socialize, etc., there is a good possibility that at some point, your dog is going to decide that it doesn't particularly like other dogs. If you have a greyhound, there is a good possibility that at some point, if your gate is left open, the dog will bolt out and run like the wind, totally ignoring your pleas to come back. If you have a Beagle, it is most likely going to bark a lot and dig holes in your yard.

    Dogs want, first and foremost, to please THEMSELVES. Pretty much the ONLY reason the dogs will do things that please US, is because either 1) they get something good when they do it (treat, petted, etc.). or 2) they know bad things will happen if they don't do it (correction, or withholding the good thing). People prefer to anthropomorphize everything dogs do, and consider them little furry people that live to please "mommy" and "daddy"--but in reality, they are animals, and do what makes THEM happy, above all. Most pit bulls think fighting is FUN. That is why they do it.








    [/quote]They can be socialized to accept other animals.".... this after you were carrying on in another thread about how such advice is dangerous. So much for credible sources.

     
  8. elizavixen

    elizavixen New Member

    As the owner of two St. Bernards (aka Alpine mastiffs) I figured I would chime in.

    Smaller dogs wouldn't stand a chance against a mastiff, or any other larger dog looking for a fight. I knew a dog like this. 170 lbs of solid muscle. He was fast as lightning. He may get winded quicker but it wouldn't matter, the fight wouldn't last long.

    MY opinion is that mastiffs, the majority anyway, are just big, cuddly dogs. Most are the sweetest things on the planet, to humans and dogs alike. It's just not in their personality. Now if you really trained a mastiff to fight, and they had the heart to do so (which most lack), then you would have one heck of a fighting dog. Pits seem to me to have the heart to do it, the drive so to speak. Just my opinion.

    But trying to argue why a certain breed is a better fighting dog is an insult to all the breeds.
     
  9. fawnbrindle

    fawnbrindle New Member

    Is it true Pit Bulls can just "snap"?

    Thank you all for your advice and opinions on whether a Pit Bull can "snap". As I said, I've been doing a tremendous amount of research on these fabulous animals & I hadn't come across anything stating that pits have a tendency to "snap". I just wanted some insight from you all who have experience with these dogs. Thank you once again for your time and comments.
     
  10. fawnbrindle

    fawnbrindle New Member

    Is it true Pit Bulls can just "snap"?

    Sharon, I have a ton of pictures of my puppy (already!). However, I don't know how to download them or whatever. I know I'm showing my computer ignorance, please forgive me. I suppose I'll have to learn because he is a really beautiful dog. He is, of course, fawn brindle w/white markings & when he was 3 weeks old his eyes were the deepest blue you ever saw. Unfortunately, they're lightening up. Which I suppose is a good thing, since blue eyes are against UKC standard (I may show him). Anyhow, his little body is already starting to show a stocky build!
    Shady_Babygurl Foolish is gorgeous! R.I.P. Molly
     
  11. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Your opinion is wrong. Mastiff don't make good fighting dogs in most cases and have been tried many times. Perhaps against a smaller dog of another breed excluding the APBT. Many people assume a dog that is larger will win.

    Take the Tosa Inu. Tosa's are bred for fighting one another. Their matches are usually short and almost all dogs are currs or have curred. Two Tosas are pitted against one another. When one knows it is beat it quits. This dog is not culled like a curr Pit Bull. It is fought another day, it may win if the other dog quits or it may loose again. Even if that were to happen the dog would still be fought again and the dog would be bred. Tosa matches are also very short and many dogs don't get severve injures they stop fighting before that happens. Tosa's usually don't win against an APBT even with their huge size advantage. There have been many go's at this. Here is just one account of Mills' Buster. Who was just a pet bull. This is against at fighting bred Tosa in Tokyo. He is a 3 Time ALL-JAPANESE CHAMPION and weights in over 130lbs. Buster weighted in at 57lbs. Buster really laided into the dog but didn't do too much damage as he was pulled off by his owner and the Tosa had giant jowls. Next Buster was rolled 2 times into two different 100+lbs Tosas. The rolls were only 20 mins each (totally 40 mins) Buster was much quicker which is a major advantage in any fight and even appeared stronger than the Tosas being ontop and laying into them. The Tosas were in defensive trying to save themselves while this Pit Bull 1/2 their size tore em up.

    On another board one person made this statement.
    Its not at all about size, when it comes to bulldogs it truly is the size of the fight IN the dog rather than the size of the dog in the fight. Those breeds are not much for fighting with other dogs, dogs that don't stop, dogs that punish, dogs that cripple. Those dogs are way oversized and that would be their disadvantage, not advantage. Larger isn't good, even if they are still pretty lean a larger dog would have to work longer the majority of the time. Its body would be over worked, dehydration would set in quicker and larger dogs tend to overheat faster even lean ones. Also they don't generally work a hold as thier line of work doesn't require that. They APBT would find a could hold and work it which would put the other dog working on trying to get them off. That is just a silly statement, I do pressume it does probably seem logical to someone unaware. However plain and simple its not true. Have you ever heard of the Swinford Bandogge. This dog was supposed to be the next, and greatest dog-on-dog combatent. Why becaue the Neo is larger and considered more powerful. But they are slow and all the other things mentioned about larger dogs. The Pit Bull is a bred fighter, and very agile. Combining these too dogs was supposed to bring the gameness and abilty of the Pit Bull with the strength and power of the Neo. IT didn't work. Swinford was breeding them for this, even culling out those not showing a strong desire to fight. When the time came for true proving against the APBT the dogs failed out time and again. The best of them lasted 12 mins before quitting. It didn't work with the pure Neos either. The only advantage they do have are their jowls and other loose skin. The APBT not being able to do too much damage very quickly. Put a good head dog on them and their done.

    The Fila is used to hunt, specialty for hunting large wild cats. And thats just it, WILD. Wild animals are totally different than domesticated animals, and Pit Bulls are different from other domesticated dogs. Wild animals fight for right to mate, they fight for territory, they fight for rank and they fight only when they must and hunt for food. When they have no where to run or believe the opposer is easy to take they will fight. However most animals will not fight to the death, they will either find a way out or die trying to get away. Many dogs of even non aggressive breeds have taken on and ran off wild cats. That is because the cats don't enjoy fighting its done because the feel threatened. Once the dog shows it has no fear or is going to loyally protect its family the cat makes a quick excape. Some dogs have died from wounds after protecting family members but that is besides the point because the cat doesn't stick around to kill the dog because it showed it had a little fight in it. The Fila does hunt and track these large cats, however it does not fight or attack them. It will hold them until the hunters come to subdue the animal. Which means it doesn't engage in a fight with the large animals. It is actually more of a tracking breed and isn't really that aggressive of a dog. Unless you are a person, these dogs don't do well with strangers and actually have a natural human aggression which is part of the standard. In the hunt they will scare the cat, confuse it and leave it no way out. Then the hunter shoots it. Not much work, they are really more of a tracking breed and protection breed. Wild animals are all about self preservation and will put themselves in as little danger as possible. Domesticated dogs are similar. They fight out of fear, dominance, ect. Some aggression is just a bluff and part of fight or flight, if they hope to never have to fight and scare off the other dog. Sometimes they will flee, other times they do engage in fighting. They may be loving it and into it but if the fight is not quickly won and the other dog is starting to dominant them they will quickly submit and run with tail tucked. however a Pit Bull is not this way and they have no thoughts of self preservation, lets say the Pit Bull was actually getting beaten and was struggling to get ahead well sooner or later the other dog is going to begin to tire out, its not going to understand why the other dog is still trying to fight back. This is when the Pit Bull will start to gain even more advantage with his foe unable to shake him and deter him from fighting. What do you think will happen then? The other dog has worn itself out all this time while the Pit Bull is still fresh and full of fire. This is even apparent in Pit vs Pit, you can have one aggressive Pit wearing himself with a good dog just keeping a hold on him. The other Pits gets hot, and gets exhuasted faster, an hour later he's not feeling so well using all his resources at the start when they were unecessary. The other dog will began to come back, an hour later or probably less the other dog is going to most likely quit. If it is a gamedog then maybe it won't even though it has exhuasted itself and the other dog is on top it still may try to come back and get a second wind and continue to fight. But then it may in the end be killed when it is at loss of energy or have to be picked up because it wasted itself out. Some bulldogs are like this, they are not preffered. Most are not, the best dogs are pit intellegent dogs and ones who fight with strategy and pace themselves. A talented pit artist can beat a barnstorming, dominant pit in a long match. If the pit artist is truly game and hangs in there with the other dog man handling it, it should come out on top after the other dog has burned up its resources.

    They stand a grat chance, the odds are in the APBT. So many people have tried, so many times with mastiff breeds.
     
  12. mattbone

    mattbone New Member

    in response to elizavixens theory that big dogs have an advantage and that a trained mastiff would be a heck of a fighter i would have to say that is the most widespread misconception of big dog owners. every breed from the cane corso down to the rat terrier have been fought and while there are instances of success the pitbull has dominated the pit since it was originally bred. there are always exceptions but the simple fact is that if another dog had been as efficient a killer as the pit then it would have become the staple of dogfighting. this is not opinion this is fact. there are numerous books and articles ( newspaper publications, historical journals )that detail the history of dogfighting which will support this fact aand all you have to do is go to the library and read them. in response to the original post pit bulls have one of the highest ratings on the tempermant testing and bite reflex . a lab will be more likely to bite you than a pit. they do not go crazy after a certain amount of time though they like all dogs can become senile and aggresive late in their lives. there are plenty of hounds, and retrievers that have tried to bite me and some succeeded but never a pit. i own 3 apbts and constantly visit at least 20 other apbt. i 've been to numerous hog catches with 100's of dogs that never once showed aggresion to a human. lastly to prove that the mastiff pit fight was an exception i had to break ( by break i mean i had to use a wedge shaped piece of wood to drive between my dogs teeth to break the bite )my 55 lb female off of a 170 lb male english mastiff's neck which had tried to start a fight with her. it lasted all of about 20 seconds...the mastiff had deep ,deep puncture wounds and a few gashes where she had begun to do the head shake while she was clamped on him. it was not a "fight"...it haappened in the back yard by accident. the male tried to show his dominance and ended up with a lesson in humility. the owner was of the same opinion as other big breed owners and even though i told him it was not a wise to decision to bring a dominant, and aggresive male dog into another dogs territory he assumed his dog would be okaybecause of his size. wrong. i wasn't proud of what happened and to this day i still feel embarasses and ashamed of how my dog reacted even though it wasn't her fault. i should have put my foot down but i admit there was a part of me that wanted to see what would happen. needless to say it hasn't happened agin and she gets along famously with cats, chihauhau's ( i own one of each) , and any other animal that doesn't try to attack her.
     
  13. goob

    goob New Member

    That's not what that site said though, they said that socialization will make them accept other animals, which I think everyone here has agreed in past posts is false. And if that statement they made is false, what does that say about the rest of their article?

    This would likely be the case in a fight that was allowed to go on long enough for wind and endurance to be a factor, but in such a short time, neither of those would matter. As to the others, it would depend on the individual dogs who got the short end of things.

    This happens as well, but even with APBTs, bites may be tears or cuts, rather than punctures. How many dog/pit bull attacks have you read of where the victim required stitches to close a gash.... those are not indicative of the punctures that you would think are typical of pit bulls given their fighting style.

    Uhhh... Sara did. Read her post, here's the part I was referring to: "My APBT went at it with more fury than anything".

    fawnbrindle, you have to upload the pictures to your computer, either by scanning them or getting them put on a CD by the film developers (assuming they're not on a digital camera). Then there are instructions somewhere on this site as to posting them.
     
  14. fawnbrindle

    fawnbrindle New Member

    Is it true that a Pit Bull can just "snap"?

    Thanks Goob! I do have a digital camera, but I believe I can put the pics on CD and go from there:)
     
  15. goob

    goob New Member

    I meant that if your camera was not digital, you'd have to get the people who develop the film to put them on a CD, not that they need to be on a CD to be put online (if that makes any sense) :lol: . If you have a digital camera, it's even easier to get the pictures online, just use the cable that comes with the camera to upload them to the computer and you don't need to worry about CDs or scanning or anything. Then you have to put them on a photo host online, and you can post them.
     
  16. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    Very good post True_Pit and MattBone. I couldnt have explained it better myself. People often assume(know what they say about assuming) that the larger the dog the better the fighter and that is totally not true. Pits were BRED for centurys to fight. Using a large breed trained for fighting would not even compare to a breed that has genetically been bred for fighting for hundreds of years. There is no comparison. I really like the statement you made True_Pit ( Its not the size of the dog in the fight its the size of the fight in the dog) That makes more sense than I can even imagine. It all boils down to the dog in the end but to say a Mastiff would get the best of a Pit in the short of it is absurd. A Pit will find a good bite and hold on. A Mastiff would maybe get in a few bites but nothing compared to what the Pit would do. (IN MOST CASES) If a Mastiff etc was good for the Pit etc they would have been used instead of the APBT. Read the histoy and beginning of the Pit Bull. These arent opinions but facts. People need not assume that a large breed dog would win in a fight against a Pit because of their size. This has been PROVEN a many times.






    I THINk this would probably be because if a Pit bit a human, the human would be PULLING away trying to break lose possibly causing tears etc of that matter. In a PIT a Pit Bull goes at the other dog not running away and causing tears and damage of that sort. If a Pit was to bite a person and they ACTED as another Pit ( I know this isnt possible for for example) then there probably wouldnt be tears and gashes and rips needing hundreds of stitches etc. You cant compare biting a human to fighting another Pit Bull. It would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to really use all of their fighting style when a human is pulling away, running and moving around franticly. I would assume the human would be the cause of such damage not the Pit Bulls actual bite.


    JUST an opinion though...



    OMg I wont begin to attack that comment. Someone making that statement I would think doesnt know a thing about Pit Bulls. Read your books and do research. That is a total OPINION and not a fact.



     
  17. loves-da-pits

    loves-da-pits New Member

  18. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Another thing is a human is different than another dog. Their skin the amount of pressure it takes to break the skin is much less. And calf bites are very easy for a dog to tear on a human, like the kind you would see. Its a nice bit of flesh sticking out, not protected by furr and tougher skin of a dog and the person will probably try to get away and may have been trying to run(in some cases). Even with a human acting as a pit there would probably be some amount of tearing, our skin is so tender and unprotected.
     
  19. goob

    goob New Member

    People will use what works best for a purpose, and generally, an animal or item still being used for such a purpose after decades, despite the presence of other possibilities is a pretty good indicator of how well that animal/item does the job. To put it simply, if mastiffs could be trained to be the ultimate fighting dog, then pit bulls wouldn't be the breed of choice amongst people who do so with their dogs. The pit bull is a specialized dog, bred with a purpose in mind, and dogs were selected for breeding on the basis of how they could do that job. When you use that kind of selection in choosing breeding stock, you will have dogs produced that excell at the job they are bred for. There are individual scenarios where a mastiff might beat the tar out of an APBT in a fight, but as a whole, mastiffs cannot compare to APBTs in that vocation.

    This is true (as is the part about humans skin not being as tough as dogs' skin), but the point I was trying to make is that a lot of dog bites are not made in a manner in which jaw strength would factor in. Sure, there are some pit bulls out there that might look upon a person the same as they would another dog, and react similarly, eagerly anticipating the chance to "fight" with them... but many that bite are not like that, and may be biting defensively (in which case, shallow bites are common, the dog is just trying to drive off the person, not wanting to actually engage in a fight with them). These dogs would not be using the full strength of their jaws, but would be likely to cause more damage than a dog that was, as shallow bites are more likely to end up as gashes, or the like, which is part of the reason why in dogs trained to do bitework in protection, they look for a calm, full bite and hold..... it's just as effective as any other (if not more), and doesn't cause nearly as much visible damage.
     
  20. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    Also a Pit Bull attacking a HUMAN wouldnt be the standard representation of the breed anyway. Pit Bulls are not susposed to be human agressive and due to bad breeding, upbringing, and situations one might bite. A pit bull that attacked humans would have been useless to dog fighters. Any dog that went after a handler was immediately culled. So to me a Pit that is human agressive is not a good speciman of the breed hence it might not use the specific fighting style of a Pit Bull anyway.


    Kim
     

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