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local gets caught(Boudreaux Bloodline)

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by jay, Mar 14, 2005.



  1. A.P.B.T. lover

    A.P.B.T. lover New Member

    Not only were there adults killed but TWO litters under six weeks of age.
    I have always loved the Boudreaux line. They are wonderfully bred dogs. I just lost my last one at age thirteen.
    There is alot of 100% pure Boudreaux blood out there still, even though all is foundation stock was euthanized.
    Not only are they holding rallies for Mr. Boudreaux, they are raising money all over the world to help him fight his case.
    There are many people out there that would be honored to give him back his blood, he so gracely gave to us.
    Assumption does not cut a guilty Verdict. We have many show dogs and weight-pull dogs right down from Floyds yard. These aren't fighting machines. These are pets that love there families and enjoy the day out to socialize at our shows.
    I wouldn't be surprised if Floyd is found innocent, and a massize class action lawsuit is launched against the people responsible for reeking genocide on his dogs.
     
  2. Sara

    Sara New Member

    FYI a class action lawsuit is directly contingent on the number of complaintants involved... since Boudreaux is the only one (he and son) involved in a counter-suit against the people who took and killed his dogs without proof of guilt it wouldn't be a class action... BUT it would probably be a supreme court case involving the bill of rights and the Violation of those or one of them at LEAST that was perpetrated in Boudreaux's case.

    I too doubt he'll be found guilty and an entire line of dogs whiped out becuase of some vendetta the AC had against the men and/or breed in that area.
     
  3. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    There are many great dogs from the boudreaux line, although this is not my favorite bloodline it still ranks up there with my top choices of lines. There has been a ton of support behind Floyd which I think is really great, to see people actually coming together to help him out! I hope that they do not get a guilty conviction either, it seems they have no real evidence just speculation, and evidence that could have been has been destroy-the dogs. If the dogs had open wouds, marks, scars for real they could have been used as evidence but they have been destroyed and were probably woud free and would have helped his case. They simply said the dogs had "scars and bruises" which doesn't make much sense to me. I'm really hoping the best for Floyd and Guy, hoping that they do beat this and send waves through the political BSers who are looking for a conviction just to make headlines, to act like they are doing something about animal cruelty, to appease the animal rights wackos who think anyone with more then a couple bulldog is a dog fighter. So they can go on with their parading of a charade. But there are all no guarantees, after all they did convict and sentence Tant to 30 years so it could happen to Boudreaux. They have also been making many bust and investigation the past couple months. Some say it all has to do with the SDJ bust and the information obtained from that to uncover people and catch up with them through investigation.
     
  4. Sara

    Sara New Member

    So...are all the dogs posted Boudreaux dogs or not? I'm curious about how this is unfolding...
     
  5. A.P.B.T. lover

    A.P.B.T. lover New Member

    This would be a class action lawsuit based on the fact that are many people involved.
    Two litters under six weeks of age, more than likely all paid and spoken for by people waiting for their new arrivals. Those new owners more than likely chose their babies, had pictures, and were eagerly anticipating their new pups.
    Not only that, but Floyd sold dogs of all ages, and there were probably more people waiting. What about females sent to him to be bred? The law enforces wouldn't know the difference between his dogs or a visitor.
    Heartache, suffering, emotional abuse, and financial loss. I can see it piling up. I have a friend that had a litter and was set to send the pick back to Floyd as part of the arrangement. Thank the good lord above, that puppy is still safe. It would have died with all the rest had it been sent a week earlier.
    The laws are getting ridiculous. If you have a treadmill or a breaking stick, you could be found guilty of dog fighting in some states.
     
  6. Sara

    Sara New Member

    TRUE I hadn't thought about the puppy owners who lost dogs in the incident etc... I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that they killed his dogs without a verdict of Guilty...this would be a whole different lawsuit to be taken up between him and the authorities... HOWEVER his puppy buyers and bitch owners who sent dogs to him at the time etc. could EASILY file a class action suite against law enforcement for not caring to research who's dogs were who's etc... Then again...if he get's a guilty verdict...ALL those buyers and bitch owners could very well be next on that list of people to prosecute based on Floyd and Guy's paperwork...

    EEEK... Hopefully the latter is the course of action...VERY far reaching implications when speaking about people buying from, selling too and breeding to...Hmmm...
     
  7. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    Im really interested to see how this all pans out as Im sure everyone else is...I have a few questions though, Im not looking for an arguement or debate but there are a few things that dont seem to add up.

    First though I just want to make it clear (before anyone slams me for it) that the fact that all the dogs were euthanized is disgusting whatever the verdict comes out as, I dont know what the city laws are there with the HS but I know from years of working with Animal Control in various cities through animal hospitals that their paperwork has to be in order for one dog let alone a mass 'killing spree', it has a description of the wounds or in some cases extreme aggression towards people (and I dont mean a fearful or painful attempt at biting).

    So heres my questions.
    1.The Boudreauxs were not just in posession of steroids which is stated on the link to this, they were anabolic steroids, there is a difference, anabolic steroids are also a restricted drug with pretty serious side effects, I can see them being used for weight dogs...but at what cost? did they have prescriptions for them? If not are either of them vets? Doctors? I guess not as thats one of the charges.
    2.They also had a lot of roosters....I know enough about them to know that you only need 1 rooster for a few dozen chickens to lay regularly, and yes I am aware that rooster fighting is still legal in 2 States...but it still puts questions there. Ive been involved in a few minor dog fight bust ups and I was surprized at how often the 2 go hand in hand.
    3.It seems, from the reports Ive read and from a few comments in here that it was known to the Boudreauxs that some of their dogs were used for fighting, someone said that they cant be held accountable for other peoples actions, no they cant... but theyre responsible for who they sell the dogs too ....if they are responsible, reputable breeders why arent they more careful about who they sell their dogs to. I know 3 good Pit breeders, one in a particular who has good stock, he is specializing in breeding out the dog aggression and has spent most of his adult life doing it, he does thorough background checks on prospective owners if he doesnt already know them and would go balistic if he ever found out that any were being used to fight. I dont understand why the dogs are being sold to Japan where the Pits are put up against Tosas...and Mexico where fighting is legal and common.

    I spent about an hour on line tonight looking for dog fight websites and information, it took me less than 10 minutes to find 3 'Boudreaux' dogs and 2 'Eli' dogs at gamedogs.com, one of them Reno is one of the dogs that True_Pits posted, its the same photograph, same dog, I couldnt copy the picture, in fact I couldnt copy the link to the page as its got a block on it but just go to that website, then gamedogs gallery then males, 4 of the dogs are in there the other one is on registery of merits, granted gamedogs.com 'could' just be a website for 'weight pulling dogs', although I cant think why their chat room automatically deletes all posts after 1 hour. , they, as every 'suspicious fight sites' have disclaimers (no surprize there though) but then why is there a link to that site from pbreporter.com, their front page mentions one of the Boudreax dogs....of course it states at the end of the page that this "information is taken from Sporting Dog Journal and whether or not its accurate is anyones guess".....considering they are using the names of a 'well respected breeder' wouldnt that be grounds for a lawsuit if the stories are false? Jack Kelly and James Friccione are behind Sports Dog Journal, If I had a reputable website about anything, I know I wouldnt be linking to a website selling any books written by either of them.
    All the info I have is from whats been reported so I guess the facts will come out in court. If they are innocent then I really hope that they stop selling the dogs to the sadistic freaks that are fighting them.
     
  8. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    One dog was not of Boudreaux yard, sorry was a mistake on that one but I have removed the picture, the rest were dogs of Boudreaux whether they are dead or not isn't the issue I wasn't trying to say those were ALL dogs killed by the AC, my real point more so was just to show the condition his dogs were kept in.
     
  9. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    1. I am aware that they were anabolic steriods, which could be used for the dogs, but most people who fight dogs would rather not use steriods they can be rather dangerous sometimes for a fighting dog. But who knows. Maybe they were used by FB himself, maybe he did have a prescription, we don't really know what is going on or what all is really evidence and what they just think is evidence.

    2. As you said it is still legal in 2 states and believe LA is still one of them. A lot of the time both do hand and hand, you are correct and he could still be active in matching. I think if anything, more so Guy would be still doing this. But that would make Floyd still just as responsible.

    3. I think they know and you can't make them responsible for other peoples actions, legally you are not supposed to be able to do this. However if they are selling their dogs with the intention that they will be fought by the new owner then they can be legally responsible. If a dog is sold on the pretense that its going to be a game dog then, yes you can do something about that legally. There are different breeders breeding for different things, some wouldn't sell their dogs for fighting as you've stated. Others, especially old time dogmen you have to think even if they are no longer active are still going to want some of their stock to go out to more then just show or pull homes, I mean yes he is a judge, and yes he does compete with his dogs but it doesn't mean he no longer uphold tradition of the breed. So I think that should answer your question, or at least as best as I can.

    Yes Boudreaux dogs are a fairly game line of dog, I think that has been established. They usually have good mouth like most Eli lines, but lower production so you have to cull a lot to find a good one who is deep game with a good mouth, but I've heard when you do its unstobble. You would be able to find a lot of game dogs from this line. As well as producing dogs I don't think Boudreaux would be totally oblivious to the fact that his dogs are ROMs and PORs. They are also excellent catch dogs, very, very good for this line of work. Just as well they have made some great weight pull and schutzhund (sp?) dogs and can produce dogs of excellent conformation GR CH show dogs. You don't need to copy the picture, as I've already posted Boudreaux' Reno as you've stated. Pulldogs do not obtain ROM status or anything like that. I also don't think disclaimers are suspicious, they are on almost every Pit Bull website I've ever seen. I guess it could be grounds for a lawsuit, I've seen many inaccurate stories and even fake interviews exposed but not sure what has come of any of that. Also not everyone considers dogmen sadistic freaks, so thats just an opinion. But you'd have to reason that a once dogman wouldn't think that way, even if they no longer fight their stock I can't see them being opposed to those who do. Actually a lot of people do not think that they are sadistics freaks, many in fact respect them for the dogs they have bred up, the great bloodlines they have created, as forefathers of the breed, as authors of books, as supporters against the fight of BSL-members of EBA as conformation and weight pull judges, as sources of dogs bred true to original bulldogs so you can't expect everyone to fit into your opinion of them when a number of people don't feel this way and some will only buy gamebred stock even if they do not themselves fight dogs but only want a show, weightpull or catch dog. With all this even more so a person who was a dogman himself.
     
  10. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    Thanks for your post True_Pits it was educational. The first Ive ever really known about Boudreaux was when this came out in the paper so I did a search in Google and went through the first 10 pages or so and all I could find was the news report itself in about 20 different forms and the gaming dogs information, I dont like making any kind of judgements unless I have some facts and it seems like all the 'facts' or at least all the available information pretty much did tie him in with fighting dogs, I also have no doubt that he has a couple of excellent bloodlines and that a lot of his dogs are sold to responsible owners that dont fight them.

    I know from personal experience that anabolic steroids are used by some people on the dogs that are involved in fights, if they were for himself and he had a legitimate prescripton that wouldnt be one the charges...or maybe its just the media sensationalizing again which wouldnt surprize me either. (every bust that Ive been involved with or known about personally has had them around...but thats not to say that everyone fighting uses them)

    All I meant about the pictures is that I was just curious as to how a dog in a 'fight' magazine came up as one of your pictures, you stated that these dogs were euthanized...so...he had fighting dogs on his property?

    I do admit totally that refering to people who, for their own entertainment and to win money on as 'sadistic freaks' is just 'my opinion' but of all the people I know, I dont know anyone who thinks that dog fighting is okay...or normal, Ive seen the remains of thrashed dogs, Ive seen the dogs after fights that are still alive and suffering with legs hanging off, noses barely still attached, bubbling blood through their heads as they are trying to breath but their sinuses are crushed, Ive seen the left overs of puppies, smaller adult dogs, cats that have been used as bait and Ive seen the vidoes of the fights, how anyone who has any 'love' for these dogs can watch or be a part of this is stuns me and sickens me, its not the dogs they love its the money, the blood, the 'respect' from other fighters so I will stick with my opinion in refering to them as sadistic freaks, I doubt I will ever see them as anything other than that. When you love something you do what you can to protect it and not let it suffer....and I dont go for the excuse that the dogs are bred for it so therefore the dogs themselves 'love it'.

    As for the disclaimers, Ive seen them on quite a few websites where people have sent in stories etc and the website is not responsible for any inaccuracy's, however most of the sites dont also contain a description of which dogs spent XX amount of minutes to take down which other dogs in 3 'matches'.....I doubt that ANY website involved in any illegal activity is going to announce that on the site....just because a site has a disclaimer really doesnt prove anything.

    Im surprized that anyone would make excuses for his 'compliance' in selling dogs to be used for fighting based on the fact that Boudreaux was a 'dogman' himself. And I do find that for anyone involved in dog fighting with Pit Bulls that states they fight the BSL laws is a hypocrite. When Pits first got banned in the UK what initialized the ban was the sudden increase in underground fights and the extreme aggression of the dogs imported from the US, there were already Pit Bull breeders in the UK, there had been for years but there had never been a problem, then again the dogs were not being bred to fight.... and while you might say that the dogs were not trained to attack humans, only to fight with dogs, tell that to an 8 year old girls parents whose child was playing in the back yard with their puppy and a loose Pit jumped the fence, and killed both of them, tell it to the parents of an 11 year old boy who was out walking his dog at the park that was mauled to death trying to protect his dog by a Pit on a leash that the owner couldnt control. And Im not saying that there were no dog fight rings in UK prior to this either the fights were with English Staffordshires which in the 80's were a lot smaller and a lot less powerful that than Pit Bulls, the average size was no bigger than about 25-30#, it was only when there was the sudden influx of US bred fighters that every punk in every city wanted one....the end result being that they were banned....which then spread to a number of other countries and now with the BSL's in the States....this is what breeding fighters has acheived....they must be proud.
     
  11. MyPetTherapyDog

    MyPetTherapyDog New Member

    I never did understand the reasoning behind dog fighting people. On one hand they enjoy the thrills of seeing their dogs torn to shreds for the sport of it. On the other hand, they will swear up and down how much they "LOVE" their dogs.
    I wonder if that is how they "LOVE" their families?
    Animal abuse and domestic abuse are known to go hand in hand.
    I will NEVER EVER support people that fight their dogs or knowingly sell their dogs to be faught. Men trying to be men behind their powerful dogs. It is sick in my opinion!!!!!!!!


    The article Link between animal and human violence states:-
    "Studies of prison inmates reveal that as many as 75% of violent offenders had early records of animal cruelty. There is also a high correlation between family violence and animal cruelty. A study in 1983 of New Jersey families referred to youth and family services for reasons of child abuse reported that 88% of cases had at least one member of the household who physically abused animals. An English researcher found that 83% of families reported for animal abuse also had children listed at high risk of abuse or neglect.
    A well-publicised case also highlights the obvious connection between animal abuse and the abuse of vunerable humans. This was the case of two 10-year old boys, Robert Thompson and Jon Venables, abusing, torturing and murdering Jamie Bulger, a 2-year old, in Merseyside, England:
    He was hit 42 times with iron bars and bricks, and paint was thrown into his eyes as he cried for his mother. He was sexually abused...They [Thompson and Venables] got pleasure out of hurting a baby, and before that, they tortured animals.[26]
    No less relevant are those media reports which stated that the studies used to determine whether the two killers would be 'safe' to be released include their psychological reactions to subjects such as animal cruelty and suffering.
    The killing of Jamie Bulger naturally caused both shock and outrage in the UK. However this was not the first occasion of a child killing another and there being a link with animal abuse. In 1968, eleven-year old Mary Bell was found guilty of manslaughter 'because of diminished responsibility' in respect of both four-year old Martin Brown and three-year old Brian Howe.
    In the case of Brian, he was found strangled: additionally, puncture marks were found on his thighs, and his genitals had been partly skinned. A razor blade had been used on his stomach to write the letter 'M'. As a young child, Mary was subjected to sexual abuse which was instigated by her mother and also suffered drug overdoses, almost certainly initiated by her mother. Two doctors involved in the trial referred to her having a 'psychopathic personality', almost certainly caused by her traumatic and unstable childhood.
    According to Shirley Lynn Scott, when Mary began kindergarten, she was seen 'putting her hands around the neck of another child'. Scott also stated that Bell 'certainly showed no signs of being satiated after murdering Brian' and that 'she was violent toward animals'. She added that those familiar with the behaviour of serial killers 'will also recognize that she probably wouldn't have stopped killing if unapprehended. Mary preyed on victims weaker than herself"
     
  12. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    This happened at theBootle New Strand Shopping Centre (in Liverpool, Merseyside) I used to go shopping there every Wednesday with my daughter before this happened. My sisters friend at the time worked at Bootle police station.....when one the mothers was interviewed she stated that the family dog had recently had a litter of puppies, one by one the puppies disappeared. At the same time there were what was left of animals remains that had been tied to a local railway line and run over by trains, same railway line that they found Jamies body on.. No one questioned where the puppies were disappearing to....I just read a report about the way young children are desensitized to violence through watching cocks and dog fights in Mexico......infuriating and sickening.
    (off topic a bit) did you know that Venebles and Thompson were released, I think the beginning of last year, they were given new identities and dont live around Liverpool.
     
  13. Sara

    Sara New Member

    I want to make a point that also Floyd Boudreaux was breeding or at least was likely to be involved in the dogs back in the day when Dog Fighting wasn't exactly a crime (although the sport was never really legal)... He is and was a "dogman" so it does make a ton of sense that he would in fact have a line of dogs used for dog fighting... I'm sure Colby dogs are still out there with game lines as well... Colby dogs are seen in dog fight books as are Boudreaux dogs. Whether Boudreaux sold knowingly to dog fighters and didn't mind it...is rather moot. The point here is what legally is Boudreaux really responsible for? At this point...it's really hard to say.

    I will come out with it that conformationally, tempermentally, and competitively in WP or Catch work...I would seek out a gamebred pit. I've met them and I like them and I appreciate them. The reason I love the breed in particular has everything to do with what they were bred to do and NOTHING to do with any sadistic nature to watch them rip apart a cat... Baiting was generally something NOT done by dogmen, rather, TESTING was done between an unproven match dog and a proven, often larger, older dog...

    Have any of you folks looked to see what exactly a dog fight consisted of in the "golden" years for this breed? Dog Fights conducted by respected dog men?

    It's funny that we can watch film and tape after tape of horses running races with legs dangling, or "confiscate" drug after drug used on race horses... We can knowingly put two year old horses on a race track for the sake of money regardless of how much pain he is in ...or would be in if it weren't for one or two cut nerves... Common practice in the big money races is drug them up, make them nuts and turn-em loose... Is that sadistic? It's legal...and respected and we all cheer for the horses doing it or involved in it???

    Broken necks, legs etc... even humans enjoy partaking in the sport...anorexic, diabetic, anemic, men careening down a track on a 1200 lb horse who is feeling no pain and in a craze... Jockey's don't have much insurance, no salary, and they participate or turn a blind eye to the practices of trainers, vets, and owners that COULD be considered sadistic in order to have a minute or two of pleasure living on the edge of death... Broken bones galore... Joints of big money race horses are all but gone by the age of 5...so pain for the rest of the horse's life... The low horse's on the totem are even more abused if you will...

    WHat about Rodeo stock...cowboys... Could we call them sadistic animal abusers??? Maybe we should...

    What about show jumpers...MAKING the poor horses jump 6 foot high fences etc...

    How about...anyone riding a horse...how cruel to strap a saddle on their backs and make them carry you around...

    "Sadistic" is subjective and the point of the thread isn't wether dog fighting is wrong or forgiveable...I beleive the point is to keep an eye on things and see just what legally they have on Floyd and his son and if they can make it stick... Right?
     
  14. A.P.B.T. lover

    A.P.B.T. lover New Member

    The main killer of the reg'd american Pit bull Terrier is...MISTAKEN IDENTITY

    You can thank Boudreaux and old time dog men like him for breeding dogs that were NOT people aggressive.

    You can thank half bred mutts and irresponsible owners for the half-cocked, emotionally un-stable, man-biters, along with the people who think they can produce that, " Perfect Breed Blend" by mixing something that was never meant to be mixed.

    Why is it that the American Pit Bull Terrier was not hardly heard of by the general public till the 70's?

    Why since the public got a hold of something pure that all hell has broken loose? Leave breeding up to the proffessionals. How many times have I heard, " ooohh... let's breed this white dog with this brindle to see what colours we get!" The foundation was set by the forefathers, and the mistake they made was selling to the general public. But, thank god they did, because in 1978 my first reg'd dog was in my arms. It was special and pure, and I can see why the public first fell inlove. But like everything in life, there are people who believe they can make it better when they have no clue how it got to where it was in the first place.

    It was the old time breeders that bred for a SOUND temperment. PEOPLE AGGRESSION does not equal DOG AGGRESSION. They would cull any dog that showed a tiny bit of people aggression. If you've read about old time matches, the dogs were handled by many different people during a match. They had to check holds to make sure a lip wasn't fanged. They had to get very close and very personal throughout the match. This would be impossible if a dog was human aggressive.

    I believe to preserve our Registered Breed, we need to pull away from the un-pure and make ourselves distinctive. Otherwise our breed is going to be irraticated.

    NATIONAL CANINE RESEARCH FOUNDATION


    Breeds of Dogs Involved in Fatal Attacks:

    It is important to emphasize that the breed of dog is never the sole determing factor in a fatal dog attack. A fatal attack is always the culmination of past and present events that include: inherited and learned behaviors, genetics, breeding, socialization, function of the dog, physical condition and size of the dog, individual temperament, environmental stresses, owner responsibility, victim behavior, victim size and physical condition, timing and misfortune.


    In response to a severe or fatal attack in a community, lawmakers and the public often believe they can prevent future dog-bite-related injuries by addressing canine aggression as a breed specific behavior. Information used to bolster this theory is usually based on one or more of the following:

    - A specific case of severe or fatal attack in the community.
    - Newspaper, media accounts of dog attacks.
    - CDC studies of fatal dog attacks & statistics.

    A Specific Case of Severe or Fatal Attack in the Community
    Proposed breed specific legislation as the result of an individual severe or fatal dog attack in a community appears to be a phenomena that arises almost exclusively from a Pit Bull or Rottweiler attack. Severe or fatal attacks by other breeds of dogs almost never initiate this kind of response.

    Newspaper and Media Accounts of Dog Attacks
    The media has vast influence over our perceptions of which breeds of dogs are dangerous, as they decide which dog attack stories to publish. With over 4.7 million dog bites recorded each year in the United States and with over 800,000 of these attacks serious enough to require medical attention, the resources for dog-bite stories appear unlimited. Yet, the media seems to delight in Pit bull related stories, so much so, that in their haste to report the latest Pit bull attack story the truth often takes a backseat to sensationalism.

    Listed below is a small sampling of inaccurate and misleading media accounts that have caused irreparable damage to the image of Pit Bulls:

    Killer Pit Bulls Rip Granny to Shreds New York Post (NYPost.com) Dec. 11, 2002
    Pet Pit Bulls Kill Woman, 80, in Her Home The New York Times (nytimes.com) Dec. 11, 2002
    [The victim's daughter and granddaughter (owner of the dogs) could not believe the dogs, a female Pit Bull and a male Lab/Pit mix attacked and killed the elderly woman. The family hired a forensic pathologist to review the case. It was determined that although the victim had sustained some dog bites, all the bites were non-lethal and post-mortem. The grandmother was not "ripped to shreds" by the dogs but died from cardiac arrhythmia. Both dogs were eventually returned to their owners.]

    Pit Bull Attack Victim Leaves Hospital WTVO (Channel 17) April 25, 2003
    Man Struggles to Recover from Pit Bull Attack WTVO (Channel 17) April 29, 2003
    [The man in this case was never bitten by a Pit bull. Indeed, there is no mention of the dog making contact with the man at all. Instead, the man was running from the dog and he ran into the road and "slammed" into a passing van. He sustained serious injuries from the collision with the vehicle.]

    Pit Bull Horror New York Daily News February 7, 2004
    Pit Bull Mauls 3-Year-Old's Face New York Newsday February 6, 2004
    [A Bronx family owned a Boxer dog and a German Shepherd puppy that usually were kept in the basement as guard dogs. Two days before the girl was bitten, the family took in a Pit Bull. The 3-year-old was alone playing with the three dogs when a dogfight started. At this point the girl was bitten in the face by the Boxer (also reported to be an American bulldog). It was later acknowledged that the Pit bull (also reported to be a Pit bull mix and a "pet bulldog") was not involved in the attack on the girl]

    Cortland Pit Bull Mauling Death WBNG.com (Channel 12) Dec. 9, 2002
    [It was later determined that although the Pit bull participated in the death of 24-year-old Eric Tallman, the dog did not inflict the fatal wounds. The victim died from blunt force injury. It was later revealed that the victim was beaten to death by an acquaintance over a drug debt.]

    Barstow Trial Opens in Boy's Death: Pit bulls fatally mauled Cash Carson, 10. The Press-Enterprise May 5, 2001
    Murder Charges Filed in Pit Bull Mauling The Associated Press June 17, 2000
    [This tragic case of a 10-year-old boy killed by dogs was carried extensively in the media. The dogs were repeatedly headlined as "Pit Bulls". Neither of these dogs were "Pit Bulls". One appeared to be a Pit Bull Mix and the other dog (the male that inflicted the fatal wounds) was clearly a mixed breed dog. Animal Control and photographs of the dog more accurately identify him as a possible Chow/Pit Bull mixed breed.]

    Vancouver Girl Badly Injured in Pit Bull Attack CTV News Dec. 23, 2002
    [This was a very severe attack and as such garnered much media attention. As a result of more in-depth coverage the breed was later correctly identified as a Mastiff/Rottweiler mixed breed]

    Family's Pit Bull Kills Boy, 20, months The Gainesville Sun May 8, 2000
    20-month-old Killed by Bull Terrier Naples Daily News May 9, 2000
    [This child was not killed by a Pit Bull, nor a Bull Terrier, nor a "family" dog. How the dog came to be labelled a "Pit bull" is unexplained. The owner described the dog to be a Labrador/Mastiff/Rottweiler cattle dog. The dog was used to herd cattle and was kept chained on the property. Animal control and the Alachua Sheriff's office confirm the dog was a mixed breed. Photographs of the dog reveal no discernable breed.]

    Another serious problem with the image of Pit Bulls is the over-reporting of Pit Bull attacks vs. other breed attacks. Unquestionably, a disporportionate amount of media attention is given to Pit Bull attacks. One example of this is a recent fatal attack in Detroit by a Pit Bull. This story ran in over 30 separate national newspapers and was also picked up by FOX news, CNN and two British newspapers. Two weeks earlier a man was killed by his German Shepherd Dog and this story ran only in the local community newspaper.

    CDC Studies on Fatal Dog Attacks
    The last study done by the Centers for Disease Control (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the U.S. between 1979-1998) is frequently used as evidence to support breed specific legislation, despite the fact that the authors of this study clearly did not advocate BSL as a solution to preventing fatal dog attacks.

    In light of the fact that the CDC statistics on Pit Bull and Rottweiler-related fatalities are often used to "prove" that these breeds are more dangerous than other breeds of dogs, the following information is presented:

    The last CDC study reports that "some breed information was available for 238 human dog-bite-related-fatalities" (of the more than 327 deaths caused by dogs from 1979-1998).

    This means there were 89 deaths caused by dogs between 1979-1998 of which the CDC had no information as to which breed(s) of dog were involved.

    The goal of NCRF is to actively and continuously research and document as much information on fatal dog attacks as possible. This objective has enabled the NCRF to obtain breed information on 43 of the 89 cases of which the CDC has no record of breed.

    The addition of 43 cases/breeds to the existing 238 cases (used by the CDC) significantly changes the statistics on individual breed involvement in fatalities.

    The CDC study (using 238 breed identifications) concludes that Pit Bulls and Rottweilers are responsible for over 50% of all human fatalties due to dog bite during the years 1979-1998.

    The addition of 43 breed identifications (for a total of 281 breed identifications) significantly changes the percentage of Pit Bull and Rottweiler fatal attack involvement from the CDC reported "over 50%" to a revised calculation of 38% involvement of Pit Bulls and Rottweilers in fatal attacks from 1979-1998.

    It should also be noted that there are at least another 46 fatal attacks (from 1979-1998) in which neither the CDC nor this study was able to obtain breed information. Certainly this presents the possiblity that the present statistics on individual breed involvement could change again if it becomes possible to uncover the remaining 46 unknown cases.


    Previous Studies on Fatal Dog Attacks:

    The following reports on fatal dog attacks in the United States are informative in-depth studies that were used as a foundation on which this study was based:

    1 . Winkler WG. Human deaths induced by dog bites, United States, 1974-1975. Public Health Rep. 1977: 92:425-429.

    2. Pinckney LE, Kennedy LA. Traumatic deaths from dog attacks in the United States. Pediatrics. 1982; 69:193-196.

    3. Sacks JJ, Satin RW, Bonzo S. Dog-Bite Related Fatalities from 1979 through 1988. JAMA; 262:1489-1492.

    4. Sacks JJ, Sinclair, et al. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the U.S. between 1979-1998. JAVMA; 217:836-840

    (Many thanks to the authors for conducting these informative studies).
     
  15. Angie

    Angie New Member

    Did they have all these dogs temperment tested? Don't fighting dogs usually have a lot of scars? I feel bad for those poor dogs.
    And just because it is Boudreaux bloodline doesn't mean the dog is mean or used for fighting. My brother has a female that is Boudreaux, 6 generations back (I think) and she is so loveable and so sweet!
    This is so dumb that they are just arresting this man now for having his dogs and keeping the Boudreaux bloodline.

    Baby, ADBA registered, Boudreaux bloodline! (45lbs.)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    And look at this sweet lil face...awwwww....
    [​IMG]
     
  16. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    I agree totally with your posts, and as I already stated I have no doubt that he has excellent bloodlines and the dogs should not have been euthanized. However from the sites Ive seen just in the last few days and today talking to a couple of people who know a lot more about bloodlines and fighting stock, it seems that its pretty much common knowledge that his bloodlines are 'well respected' in the fighting world. I guess Im just a bit shocked that certain people here actually advocate dog fighting.
    Sara....Im stunned!!! fighting wasnt a crime but it wasnt legal, its gotta be one or the other. Are you seriously trying to make an excuse for Boudreaux as a 'dogman'...so he didnt do the baiting...just the testing!....in case your not quite clear on your own statement...its okay to throw in a younger smaller unproven dog in the pit but its 'not as bad as throwing in bait? And dog fights in 'the golden years'. Dog fights conducted by respected men? So....thats supposed to make it okay?? Little newsflash for you hon, 'high profile' peodophiles are often well respected men, it doesnt make molesting kids okay.
    All the talk about the forefathers that did this, my forefathers were involved in the slave trade a few hundred years ago, most 'forefathers' who came to the US a few hundred years ago all but commited virtual genocide....just because our forefathers did it doesnt make it okay and doesnt mean that we should continue to do it....oh right slavery is illegal now....so is killing native Indians....and so is dog fighting.
    As for your other arguements about horses, your comments are the same as every one else who is guilty of supporting dog fights, theres a lot of animal abuse going on out there and there are people spending their entire lives trying to stop it or at least provide homes and care for abused animals....thats a whole other topic though.
    A.P.B.T Lover I agree with you, most of the problems are caused by people wrongly identifying the dogs. The 2 cases I mentioned were by American Pit Bull Terriers and had you read what I wrote properly you would have noticed that both cases involved the dogs attacking other dogs, the kids just happened to be there and as quite a few people have already pointed out when Pits (and most breeds incidentally) get into a full on attack, the adrenilin kicks in and they dont feel pain, they also dont always realize that what they are biting is sometimes not the dog. I also said that it is the responsibility of the breeder in choosing who they sell their dogs to...'then I mentioned that in the UK every punk in the city wanted one', well pretty much for a while there every punk in the city had one, a guy came to an inner city farm where I used to work with his newly aquired APBT...he was showing off, showed everyone the papers, its bloodlines, he got it from a guy in London who had got them from the US...for fighting, then he decided to show off a bit more and let the dog loose and let it hang on to a large branch on a tree....him and his idiot friends were timing it, the dog let go after a while and before he could get it back on the leash it went after one of the goats, it got it, after a few seconds of the dog hanging from its throat it was dead, so was the dog as one of the guys at the farm took a macheti to its throat. This is what happens when breeders irresponsibly sell their stock to anyone willing to pay, this is what happens when it gets out of control and this is why there are now dangerous dog laws and BSL laws.
    Again I guess all will pan out when it goes to court, for all I know maybe Boudreaux has no connections whatsoever to fighting dogs, then I hope he walks, if he is involved then Im sure the dog fighting industry will greatly miss him. It still wasnt right to nuke all the dogs, that in itself if is more animal abuse unless the dogs actually did pose a serious threat to people.
    I dont have a problem with APBT's, I volunteer right now at a Bull Terrier rescue, I have a problem with bad owners and I have a serious problem with anyone who fights them.
    Oh and Sara, I wouldnt spend too much time being offended by me calling anyone involved in any way with finding dog fights entertaining sadistic freaks....Im sure anyone who has the stomach to watch dogs ripping each other to pieces is also thick skinned enough to be able to take a little comment like that.
     
  17. A.P.B.T. lover

    A.P.B.T. lover New Member

    Mistaken Identity is the biggest issue, and I wish that a Registered Breeder of Reg'd American Pit Bull Terriers who has been at this for a considerable amount of time would be the one determining WHAT bit a child or caused damage to another dog. Bites caused by Registered APBT'S is less than 1% in any statistic.
    I refuse to believe that the Reg'd APBT regardless of Bloodline is responsible unless I see the dog and see the paperwork. I have gone to the dog control, the S.P.C.A.. I have seen these dogs that were apparently blood thirsty Pit Bulls. What were they? About 24 inches at the shoulder, bushy tails, lippy, with feet the size of plates. Many people think they are experts and know what they are talking about. I love running into those people, because they don't have a clue.
    I have had to break up a fight between one of my dogs and a stray, un-leashed dog that ran into MY yard with its shackles up. Anybody that knows an APBT's fighting style, knows that it is just one big wrestling match full of, HOLDS. I had my breaking stick, determined where he was holding, and got him off, with no bite to me or anybody else.
    No matter what breed ,no child under the age of 12 should EVER be left alone with an animal. I have four children. They have all shown conformation with APBT's, and are very dog proof. However, my dogs are my responsiblity. They do not feed my dogs, they do not let them out or take care of them. It is not their job. The closest they get to working with my dogs is after a work-out when they are laying on the grass like alligators on their backs, tongues hanging out! :D My kids will drag them around the lawn with their flirt-poles still in their mouths.
    Yes, we have evolved from the days when many things were legal. Aren't you glad your hand isn't cut off for stealing a loaf of bread?( I don't steal bread for the record)
    Discussions could go on forever about dog fighting, tempermants of dogs, BSL... The fact of the matter is about 75% of APBT owners shouldn't have them. I help run shows with about 125 dogs per day. I do alot of educating. Our Fun Show days are for un-reg'd dogs, mix-breds, and altered dogs. My voice is hoarse after THAT day. I know what I'm dealing with. Alot of people with no common sense, no idea about how to care for a dog, let alone an APBT. But, we keep them coming, because whatever their dog does is going to affect the reg'd Stock. I know there is a bad apple in every basket and breeding isn't fool proof, especially when you're not breeding for the right reasons.
    It is up to everybody to be an Ambassador of your dog. Love, care, train your pet to be a healthy member of this world. There are some terrible parents out there who don't know a thing about parenting, and some awful owners who don't know a thing about responsible ownership.
     
  18. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Look and what Angie wrote and compehend it. Many APBTs have Boudreaux blood 6 or so generations back. Boudreaux/Eli blood is one of the foundations of the breed, if it were not for him and others like him my dogs wouldn't even exist. But yes we should just condem him for what he and all the other Pit Bull breeders back in the day did. :roll: Baby looks too cute in that last pic!!


    Maybe and maybe not, I don't know. Nobody knows and even if they were ALL fighting dogs they never had any proof and he hasn't been convicted yet, but they were all killed even the puppies. I think class action law suit is in order, and not just on the puppies but I also heard he was boarding dogs for people and now this means their dogs are dead as well.

    I actually agree with most of this, your statements on correct, but yet you seem to be confused or comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing people who fight dogs for entertainment and money purposes to someone who does it as a means of preserving their chosen breed in a working form. You still may not agree with that but you can't pull out only the negatives. Why aren't you out here talking about hog catch work and weight pull, those machos guys who could never accomplish anything themselves and are big pussies so they make their dogs work for them, they force them to pull 1000s of lbs just so they can brag about it, say how strong their dogs are for and how they can beat your dog, with their big egos and forcing their dogs to overheat, pull with legs injuries, pulled muscles, ect just to prove how good of pullers they really are and betting (which is illegal) on whose dog will pull the most weight. Some can say this still isn't as brutal as dog fighting, and I agree but how extreme are people doing to get? I had one person tell me that drag weighting my dogs was cruetly to animals and people who do that are just sick and they really need to get help for themselves. Which means basically me, since I was the one doing it, you can bet I was pissed, but I still have to refrain and be all nicey nicey because I own Pit Bulls and still no matter what want to put off a good character image. And there are already laws being made about catch work as well as some people trying to lobby against sanctioned weight pulls because it cruelty. I'm sorry you have to witness those things and they would make me sick, I don't think I could be involved in anything like that, I couldn't make a bust and see dogs like that or remains. But you can't take only the worse case or compare people like that to dogmen who take care of their dogs, vet their dogs, know when their dog needs to be picked up and don't steal animals to use for bait. Your comparing someone who has no regard whatsoever for life who bait dogs, bet on them for money (I had one kid tell me he was going to get this dog to roll it for money, go figure since when do you roll dogs for money?), breed the hell out of them, don't vet them, ect to someone who does the opposite, very few dogmen make money off their dogs breeding and raising dogs is an expensive hobby no matter what you are breeding for whether that be gameness or conformation or both. So you are saying that people who use their dogs for catch work don't love them?
    Sara I think what you said about horse racing is very true, and what about greyhound racing its all the same and there have even been rescues set up by people because greyhounds are used up and then dumped when they are no longer fast? How can you do that to a dog who works for you, runs it heart out, loves you and gives it all and say "its done" and PTS or set it loose, no ABANDON it in the desert like some people were caught doing. Where a dogman keeps dogs who are retired and past their prime and lets them live out the end of their lives, gives them comfort, still gives them attention, takes responsibility for their dog.

    I didn't make an excuse for it at all, I said that could very well be the reason why, why would he see anything wrong with it even if it is now illegal and he himself won't do it. In Japan and many other countries it is still legal. I don't see how they are hyprocrites? I'm sure you love APBTs and want to protect them, I'm hoping. But from the way you talk you yourself are uneducated about the history and about gamebred dogs and dogmen. About the temperaments of these dogs. You know nothing about any of this it seems to be laying blame or judgement on gamebred dogs or the people producing them. If you had researched them and put further studies into the history you would see that gamebred dogs are of stable temperament, they are not fearful yet they are not dominant they are balanced and confident. They are good with children, good with strangers they love people. They are intellegent (most of them anyway) they are almost human like. They are very atheletic, with a lot of drive, very willing to please and have a lot of heart and working ability. They excell at conformation, weight pull, schutzhund, catch work, companions, obediance, agility and probably a host of other things besides the pit. So you know this dog that attacked the 8 year old was a fighting dog? As well as the one in the park? You know that it was owned by serious dogmen rather then street punks? You know that it was a true gamebred dog and not just bred for or trianed to be aggressive, possibly even abused? I have my doubts. And this owner with the Pit on the leash was a dogman? Yet he couldn't control his dog? It didn't listen to him? He didn't have a breaking stick? Right doubt that too. Most dogmen don't stupidly go walking their dogs around the park, especially if they are very dog aggressive, some might take theirs on outings but only trained and well behaved dogs. I think again you have it wrong. Petey from that Lil Rascals show didn't at all seem aggressive, he also acted on other shows as well. Was he not gamebred? Was he not sired by one of the better match dogs of history (GR CH Black Jack 16xw). I think he was safe about the children, just as safe as any dog if not more safe. I would trust a gamebred dog above all others. Actually most of my dogs are gamebred and their temperaments are just fine, and I've been around a lot of gamebred dogs and even game dogs (I go to a lot of shows), I have owned dogs who were gamedogs as well (proven not in my hands of course these came to me as adults) FYI their temperaments were that of any Pit I've raised my safe, stable, sound, trust worthy, non aggressive. Not only do game dogs have an outstanding temperament with people, many can play with other dogs, some even befriend cats so believe what you want, but your opinion doens't actually sound like it was based upon facts. So I fail to see how this is hypocritcal at all, again sounds like you are comparing apples with oranges. Someone (fighter or not) who keeps or breeds aggressive dogs, doesn't care to control or leash their dogs, knows they have aggressive or dangerous dogs yet gives them a chance to injure or kill someone. Compared with someone who lives out on acres of land, has some of the best and most secure means of containment, checks hardware and kennel runs daily, invest in the best containment methods to be found, hell some even build walls and install cameras to prevent theft of their vicious man eaters lol, doesn't take their dogs to parks or places like that and allow them to be a danger there, doesn't allow their dogs to run loose. Socializes them or takes them to shows, excersizes them does all the normal stuff. If their dogs were to ever get loose they wouldn't be attacking neighboring pets likely and certainly not children, usually the owner themselves are going to be hurting because the dog will get into a fight with one of their dogs if it so pleases. Not run all over trying to find some neighbor pet far off somewhere. Of course not all live so secluded, some lives closer to town or even in town. But for this I've seen no problem, the person here had proper kennels set up for the dogs so they could not escape. Only once did a female climb out and push her way out threw the roof in the corner which was getting worn and old and escape only to tear up his trash, lets not forget that some of these vicious man eater fighting dogs were babysitters to his kids, grandkids, neighborhood kids, playmates for them, and in some cases showing off their offlead OB and self control from other animals as a game dog is usually a confident non aggressive dog. Again as stated dog and human aggression are no where near the same thing, and dog aggression and gameness are not the same thing either, you are confusing them. There are a lot of very game dogs who are not really that aggressive, at the same time there are many aggressive (which is a big bluff and something game dogs don't usually do) Pit Bulls are who rank currs and are only full of aggression to make up for their fear or weakness, they just want to put on a big bluff and don't want to fight or they just want to rip another dog up but ould very quickly quit because they are just aggressive, thats it and just the same most punks or newbies think that aggression means gameness. The damn byb here who is against dog fighting still likes to say how much their dog would be such a good fighter, but they could never do that and don't see how anyone can do that to their dog. Only because the dog has got into a couple yard accidents and tries to eat every person it meets, thats not gameness thats an unstable maniac that needs to be culled, not bred. Most dogmen would laugh and tell you straight to your face that dog is an animal aggressive cur and thats all it has is hot air, more so about this dog they would tell you to cull it people of the human aggressive, but they say its just being "protective" of the family. FEAR AGGRESSION is what I call it. I'm not sure where you got your "facts" but they seem very inaccurate as far as gamebred dogs are concerned, no not all are perfect in temperament but most owners and breeders of them still do the same thing today and cull them. So they have done nothing to jeopadize the breeds temperament or to give a reason for BSL. Most people just play into the vicious fighting dog bit when its really the opposite. I've seen far, far more untrustworthy weight pull dogs then I have ever gamedogs. Actually the only yard I've been told to stay away from that dog, or you can pet this dog and this dog but that one or this one will get you, so don't get too close was on a weight pullers yard. Where I went to a yard full of gamebred dogs when the owner was out of state to pick up a dog and I messed with all them, they didn't know me, but I knew how most of them were bred because I knew the breeder where this person got their dog and the blood they were using and I had a friend with me and wanted to show them and explain to them the pedigrees and how most were related to my dogs. Not once were we ever met with anything but wagging tails and playfulness. They would have all came home with me willingly has I rounded them up.
    I read the cases, which I've already commented on and you say they have adreneline and don't realize what they are doing? That is just BS and doesn't flow right with APBTs. Don't take these words wrong as I'm goin to explain, the case and what you are saying isn't BS, I'm sure it is true. However a gamebred and game dog especially is never going to be in an incident as such. These dogs have extremely good bite inhibition, in all my yard accidents and the few I've helped others break up I've never once fear of getting bitten and had I the dog would now be dead. The only time a dog has ever made an attempt at me or whatever they were trying to bite if they didn't realize it was me with by a cur dog (2 different ones on 2 seperate occasions), but then I never had a problem with one (who was a Boxer) she was getting the worse end of it from the Pit and she never made an accidental bite at me, I was working to get the pit off and save her life as she could not fight back (but of course was trying, self preservation of course) but she neither accidentally bit or made an attempt to, had she I would have been very leniant as I can't expect from her what I do of the bulldogs. I was also on another board (a breeders board mostly of many different breeds like AKC show dogs) and they were talking about best ways to break up fights or if anyone has ever been bitten in a fight. I said no and said I wouldn't expect too, ect. When I got a reply that the dogs don't purposely bite you, they don't realize its you they are just trying to fight. Well this does not pass with me, as my breed was used and bred for fighting and had to have great bite inhibition, not to bite the handler when being seperated or ref when being defanged, not to bite out of excitement/aggression because they wanted to be released not to bite when they are wounded and being given medical treatment. Pit Bulls should always know what they are doing with their mouth, they shouldn't accidentally bite you (or anyone else) no matter how bad they want to fight or kill another animal, I have heard of these other cases and I never agree with Pit Bulls who react in this matter and injure someone trying to save their dog. Also most Pit Bulls fight differnt then cur breeds, as they grab and hold and don't lash out aggressivly, if you've ever seen Pit Bulls fight and dogs of other breeds fight you'd quickly see the different between a dog who bites everywhere like crazy and growls to a dog who bites and holds on, doesn't make a sound.
    I very much agree with you about people who sell dogs to just anyone, I can't believe the dog was killed or killing a goat, however the OWNER should have been responsible. I see idiots like this everwhere they abound, those who do want to show off and make up for having low selfesteem themselves, those who do stupid things like let their dogs loose on a cat or stray dog, who don't care to tie it up, forget to feed it. This is why breeders need to sell less dogs, most dogmen are not peddlers but I can't say all are as good as the others, some are in it for the money or to sell dogs, its sad but true and the same goes for show and weight pull people who sell just to anyone these dogs too end up in the wrong hands and for the wrong uses. All breeders need to guard their stock, breed little and sell even less, they need to breed when they need to not just to breed and sell pups or just to have a litter.
     
  19. goob

    goob New Member

    I'll admit I didn't read much of this second page (the text box is too big for my screen and I hate having to roll it back and forth so I just skimmed over), but here's what I understand out of this whole situation.
    1. re: steroids- I read on another board comprised of mostly show/pet people that Floyd B. had some health condition that he was on steriods for. Don't know how much truth there is to it, but I do know that when the media gets ahold of something like that (steroids for fighting dogs), they aren't quick to retract it even if it's found to be wrong. I wouldn't count on much more from AC, since they also deemed the (alleged) rusted, out of commision treadmill as "fighting equipment", and have done similar in other cases. In addition, there's the possibility that he had gotten steroids (either illegally or not) for treating some medical condition one or several of his dogs had. Allergies and other skin conditions are common in the breed, and I know steroids are often issued to reduce inflammation due to that, among other things. I'm not quick to drawn conclusions off of possession of steroids given the mere presence of the substance (especially since, as True_Pits and others pointed out, most knowledgeable dog people wouldn't bother with it for performance reasons).

    2. re: known dogfighter- Yes, Floyd B's dogs were sold worldwide, and many have gone to dog fighters (this is actually something that he could be charged with under some laws, selling dogs for dog fighting purposes, though I don't know if it'll be addressed here, and I know it wasn't grounds for killing the dogs). I'm sure he did fight dogs in the past, and he (or his son I suppose) may have still been doing it, though from what I've seen from others who know him better, signs point to no. That's why we have the statute of limitations though, and it's not within legal limits to prosecute him either for his past crimes, OR for his reputation based on those crimes.

    3. re: dogs PTS- I think people are wasting their time and efforts trying to get the HS lady (drawing a blank on her actual position and name right now). The law they used to kill these dogs is what people should be attacking, as it was what allowed poor judgement on the part of the HS to result in the dogs deaths (though I'll also address the other side of this later). They were suspected fighting dogs, and due to the way the law is written, that was reason enough for them to be deemed dangerous and PTS through the law. Yes, there may have been (and probably were) underlying motives (like setting precedent by taking down some of the bigest names in the dog game), BUT the law is what gave these people the avenue of killing the dogs, without it, they would've at least had a chance.

    I do wonder what exactly HS would have done with 60ish gamebred APBTs though, and would have been equally unhappy had they warehoused the dogs in isolation for months while the court battle took place. I don't think HS was prepared for handling these dogs, and that's no excuse for doing what they did, but at the same time, they were stuck in a corner.

    This was a lose/lose situation, and I'm deeply disturbed by it all, not even so much because of what happened to this individual and his dogs (yes, it's a tragedy for the dogs, and for him as well if he was doing nothing wrong, but there's a deeper message here), but because it's been shown that when they decide you are guilty, your dogs have no rights, and due process is out the window. We've all seen the proclaimed "fighting dogs" on animal planet shows, dogs that looked anything but, and were labeled as such because of some bogus paraphenelia found at their living area (to give some examples; multiple pit bulls with scars, large collars, tied out dogs, dogs that aggress at other dogs, treadmills or springpoles, breaking sticks, medications and medical supplies, among other things).

    Both pit bulls in my house are entirely PETS, and we have syringes and strong antibiotics and enough wound care supplies for a small army (syringes for administering Haley's insulin, but we also used to be involved in reptile rescue and still occasionally get one, so we have syringes, anti-Bs and other supplies on hand for dealing with that). We have one dog with obvious injuries (missing leg! and you wouldn't believe how many people think it's from fighting), another with less noticeable scarring (her previous owner was trying to "teach" her to fight), and with both being dog aggressive, there's always the possibility that they could get into a scrap with each other or one of our other dogs and get injured. That's also why we have the break sticks. They occasionally wear thick collars or harnesses, because I like them and because they're more suitable for tying them out on, and yes, they occasionally go on tie-out to play or hang out in the yard (though they're never unattended since our yard is not fenced). The older dog becomes a screaming fool when strange dogs approach her, and the younger dog also will fight if challenged, not uncommon for the breed. I occasionally hook up a springpole (fixed tug toy) for them, and I have a treadmill for them as well, though our Dachshund gets more use out of both than either pit bull, its there and that's all that matters, right? Speaking of which, we even have a few "bait dogs" on hand for training 'em up (also heard that one a few times, I mean, wouldn't it make sense that I'd walk my pit bull and bait dog together?). All those things can be manipulated to fit most anyone if those responsible for enforcing the laws wish it so.

    It makes me absolutely sick to think that MY pets could be endangered because some official became overzealous and came looking for an excuse to kill them. I think that is the biggest issue I have with this, and I plan on doing everything in my power to ensure that it won't happen here. Know your local laws, and if there's something that can be used against you unfairly, do something about it! I only wish something had been done in LA before this happened.
     
  20. DeLaUK

    DeLaUK New Member

    True Pits... at least your posts are 'educational'. As far as me 'pulling out the negatives' as far as Im concerned there are no positives to dog fighting.

    ............."You are comparing people who fight dogs for entertainment and money purposes to someone who does it as a means of preserving their chosen breed in a working form"...................................................
    I also mentioned the respect from other fighters, are you saying this is not 'part of the game', for many 'dogmen' this is, that I know from the work that Ive personally been involved in so why leave out that part of the statement. And if money and entertainment is of no 'value' to them then why fight dogs in front of a captive audience that are betting on the dogs. The fact that it is used as a form of 'entertainment' and there is money involved means theres a market for it. But that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it...right?

    As for the attacks I brought up, keep in mind these attacks were about 20 something years ago, and like I said it was things like this that started the whole DDA and BSL's....the DDA's did include other breeds also, including Rotts which is my personal favourite and much higher on the bite list than any other dog. Your right about the dogs involved were obviously owned by irresponsible people that didnt realize the power of the dogs, and at a guess as they were the latest craze most didnt know how to control them either, so were they 'serious dogmen' no, but where did they get them from? the 'serious dogmen' down in London? the 'serious dogmen' in the US that had brought the fighting stock over? so it seems to me that the only people who could be considered 'serious dogmen' are the ones who ensure thier dogs are strictly kept/bred by themselves or other 'serious dogmen' to preserve the breed in its true form, the ones who know exactly who their dogs are going to and know that their dogs wont be sold on to 'dogman wannabes'...if that was the case there probably wouldnt be issues with BSL's....the dog that attacked the goat, I saw the papers personally, (although that would make this irrelevant as it was only a goat...right) the inner city farm was there as an educational facility to help deprived, abused and neglected kids in the area, the goat was 'their pet' and young kids witnessed it.
    As much as I will never change how I feel about dog fighting, I have to admit that your posts, like I said are 'educational' I now know the difference between a 'serious dogman' (a breeder who's only interest is preserving the breed in its true form)a 'dogman' (a breeder who thinks of himself as the afore mentioned but takes a risk by selling his dogs to anyone and everyone thats willing to pay for them)and a 'dogman wannabe' (the typical idiot who's ego far outweighs both his capabilities and his knowledge of the dogs.....which through this leads to lack of control, bad breeding and byb, interbreeding, mix breeding, problem dogs, quick money, no interest in who buys the dogs or whats done with them.... and eventually BSL's and DDA's)...I have a lot of respect for reputable breeders who are trying to preserve their chosen breed, I have no problem with 'working' dogs as long as it doesnt involve abuse, Ive seen too much of the dark side of fighting, Ive heard people say that the 'bait dogs and cats' dont suffer as they are usually dead within a minute or 2....and Im sure in some, maybe a lot of cases thats true....but what a way to die, I know that its not always the case though in the bait dogs that have been rescued or even the younger 'unproven' dogs....that are still alive....that sit in a cage trembling, that are malnourished, whose little bodies are beaten and chewed up....I cant have have any respect for anyone who 'specializes' in causing this.

    For A.P.B.T lover.....Im sorry that you didnt get to see the paperwork on the attacks I mentioned but just because you personally didnt see it doesnt mean that they were not Pits, Im a little surprized that anyone with any knowledge of dogs at all would even make a statement like that, I would never have thought a small Pomeranian would be capable of killing someone but one did a few years ago, if your referring solely to APBT's that are registered? maybe there are no reported attacks by registered Pits, I wouldnt argue or even question that however does that mean that if an APBT is not registered its not considered an APBT, or are you going to say that every single APBT in every country is registered, fair enough, your entitled to your opinion but I really doubt that you or anyone knows exactly where every single full bred APBT is and what its done or hasnt done ..
     

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