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A few questions

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by Clipsed405, Apr 28, 2004.

  1. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Weimerieners (sp?) are starting to have more and more problems because they're color is changing from a simple gray to the silver blue...I did some research on blue because I was interrested to find about the merle coloration...and found A LOT of "shame on you" type sites for the W's... The dilute color does carry problems ESPECIALLY if not bred for correctly... Blues out of blues out of blues will cause some problems... Blues out of blacks (a few kennels out there breeding this way) shouldn't be as "diluted" and carry as many physical problems as the blue blue blue blue dogs... Health testing and smart breeding does make for healthier blue dogs...but there are still problems with strictly blue breeding programs...

    I'm an OFRN fan but if bred ignorantly with only color in mind...that color (recessive) can also come with some problems... It's not JUST bad breeding but also the fact that there are genes connected with those color genes that make for bad health as well...

    All you have to do is look at it...Blues haven't been bred for as long as Reds have and Blues have cropped up with LOTS of problems comparatively speaking... They're young in their breeding programs compared to others...they shouldn't have as many problems as they do...so it goes to say that Blue carries genetic problems and they can overtake the line if not bred more carefully to keep the problems down...

    See what I'm meaning...

    BTW... Listen to Chickee... I've heard here and there about that Kennel all in dramatic contexts...keep checking around and doing homework before you settle on this kennel.

    Sorry to have confused everyone too... I was lost as well...LOL... Does that mean I'm getting old too?
     
  2. Clipsed405

    Clipsed405 New Member

    Thanks again for all the input, Im taking it all to heart. Just a question though, a few people keep bringing up all the problems the dogs might have but no one has really named any specific genetic deffects from the breeding for the blue color, did i miss it? If anyone could let me know I'd really appreciate it. Thanks again everyone.
     
  3. Sara

    Sara New Member

    from: http://skyway.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html#TYRP2

    "It is believed that blue dogs are more prone to skin problems and perhaps allergies than dogs that are black. Blue is inherited as an autosmal recessive."

    Here's an article that mentions how confusing the coloration can be and the cause of the coloration is of importance when talking about problems that can occur: http://www.internationalstafford.com/ma ... Genes.html

    Specifics about what problems can be found because of dilute color: http://www.pethealthcenter.org/showprac ... &Private=0

    Small discussion on a message board about dilute breeding:
    http://members.boardhost.com/MolosserTa ... 72123.html

    Seems that little is known of true dilute breedings because it wasn't sought after before...wasn't a color that people wanted...even in Weimeriners (different gene is what produced the old desired color of the breed) so...I'm sure there will be more problems that crop up than what already has.[/url]
     
  4. loves-da-pits

    loves-da-pits New Member

    I don't know anything about breeding, but I keep looking at this thread and responses to learn some things. I keep looking at the pics True_Pits posted and I agree the fur looks really strange. But what keeps catching my eye is on this dog is it's front legs and feet. The dog looks almost flat-footed and front legs bent at a strange angle. Maybe it's just the way they have the dog standing for the picture. Not a real impressive looking Pit in my opinion.
     
  5. Angie

    Angie New Member

    This is what I found:

    http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http:/....ohoopeeriverkennels.com/sales.html&qte=0&o=0



    "THE BLUE COAT COLORING IN MOST BREEDS IS ASSOCIATED WITH SKIN DISEASES SOME OF WHICH ARE NOT RESPONSIVE TO TREATMENT. BLUE COATED DOGS OF ALL BREEDS ARE MORE PRONE TO BACTERIAL, VIRAL, STAPH AND FUNGAL INFECTIONS AS WELL AS VARIOUS FORMS OF DERMATITIS, ALLERGIES, DEMODEX AND COLOR MUTANT ALOPECIA.
    WHILE SOME OF THESE CONDITIONS ARE HEREDITARY MANY OF THEM ARE SIMPLY THE RESULT OF THE BLUE COAT COLORING. ALL OF THE SKIN CONDITIONS THAT WE KNOW OF ARE EASILY AND INEXPENSIVELY TREATED. ALL BLUE DOGS DO NOT DEVELOP SKIN PROBLEMS HOWEVER YOU SHOULD BE PREPARED TO TREAT IT IF THE NEED ARISES. WE HAVE SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS RESEARCHING THIS ISSUE AND HAVE HAD NUMEROUS CONVERSATIONS WITH OUR VET ON THIS SUBJECT. AS A RESULT OF OUR FINDINGS WE NO LONGER GUARANTEE AGAINST ANY SKIN OR COAT PROBLEMS. WE WILL NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR SKIN AND COAT PROBLEMS THAT ARE COMMON FOR DOGS WITH THE BLUE COLORING.
    MOST BREEDERS WILL NOT TELL YOU THIS BUT WE THINK YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW. REGARDLESS OF WHICH BREEDER YOU ARE CONSIDERING FOR YOUR PURCHASE - RESEARCH THIS FOR YOURSELF BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO BUY A BLUE COATED DOG OR ONE WHOSE PARENTS HAVE A BLUE COAT. ASK US FOR A LIST OF OTHER BREEDERS THAT CAN CONFIRM THIS ALSO."



    This is the ONLY thing I have found so far but I will keep looking ...maybe I will be able to find something...
     
  6. goob

    goob New Member

    Even normal Weims are dilutes, liver dilutes instead of black dilutes. They ALL show the dilute gene, so if it were a problem with the dilute gene, ALL would be showing problems.

    Blue dogs DO often have thinner, more easily damaged coats and hair follicles, because of the way the pigment is on the hair itself, this link has a good description and a spiffy diagram that shows why this is: http://www.italiangreyhound.org/cda.html

    You'll run into this most times you find someone breeding for one specific color... especially since many of the commonly bred blue dogs all come from a relatively small number of lines (gaff, watchdog, RE, to name a few). Anytime you're breeding onto a line, you'll have doubling up of genes, this is why people linebreed, but if you start with dogs that have problems to begin with, that's what you're going to end up with as well.

    All colors can have health problems associated with them, there are even skin/coat disorders that affect only black pigment. The key is to be aware of the problems that can crop up, and not breed affected dogs or dogs carrying for those diseases, same with any other type of disorder.

    There are lines that have been producing (some, not entirely blue) dogs from decades, with the majority being healthy dogs. Then there are lines that have only recently started breeding blue dogs, breeding only for color, no health tests or regard to anything but making blue dogs, and these dogs are showing all sorts of problems. Given that, someone could say that the problems lie not with the blue color itself (or the dilution gene that causes it) but rather with the indiscriminate breeding going on today to produce blue dogs, coupled with the fact that these people are breeding off of stock that is in many cases not what an APBT should be, in some cases not even purebred APBTs.
     
  7. GinaH

    GinaH New Member

    OK so this dog is not a pit bull of course but since you guys are on the subject of blue coats I wanted to show you guys these pics of my Moms Great Danes the blue coat is now 6 years this was a pic of him as a pup my mom has never had a minutes problem with him he has always been healthy and no skin problems whatsoever. The blue merle 9 years on the other hand has had skin infection after skin infection, surgery due to hip displaysia and just always some sort of health problem. And just recently my dad bought my mom a black and white merle puppy for her birthday and now history is repeating itself. the puppy has already started having various health problems. The breeder my dad bought him from is in Georgia so the puppy had to be shipped and was sick for a week after. My dad called the breeder because there was a guaranteed health certificate that came along with the pup the breeder agreed to take the pup back and replace it when he had another litter in 2 years but my mom was already in love with him so now they are stuck with another sickly dog. My mom has since talked to other people who have owned merles and have also has similar problems.
    But what IM wondering is..Because my Mom has had such bad luck with merle's is there something maybe not right in their genetic makeup that could make them more susceptible to health problems? I have also wondered about the merle APBT I have came across several websites for them and think they are so neat and haven't heard of or really read anything negative on them but then again I cant see how they could be different then my moms merle Great Danes?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Angie

    Angie New Member

    Where is the picture?
     
  9. GinaH

    GinaH New Member

    Im a goof and forgot to post it! :oops:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Meg04

    Meg04 New Member

    Wow what beautiful dogs. I love Great Danes!
     
  11. Angie

    Angie New Member

    wow, never saw a blue great dane before!
    cool
     
  12. Sara

    Sara New Member

    I know that I came accrossed some information about the Weimeriners and color and that recent development in how they are bred and what color they are bred for currently are causing problems with the health of the dogs... Can't remember how it went wether it was a dilute problem or not... MANY things cause "blue" coats...not just dilutes...
     
  13. GinaH

    GinaH New Member

    Thanks Meg and Angie I love Great Danes! I would love to have one I grew up with them.
    They are gentle giants my moms dogs sit on the couch on their bottoms with all fours on the floor it's so funny!
    Thanks Sara but Im really just curious about any info regarding Merle's.
    :lol:
     
  14. Sara

    Sara New Member

     
  15. goob

    goob New Member

    This is true, but the blue in APBTs and danes, and the "gray" in weims is all caused by the same dilute gene, the only difference being that weims are liver dilutes, not black dilutes. The gene that causes graying, which you may be thinking of, is found in silver poodles I believe... born black, and gradually lighten to silver by around a year of age. That doesn't occur in APBTs or weims (at least not the "normal" ones), they're all dilutes.

    Gina, merle is actually not an accepted pattern in Danes (or it may be accepted, but strongly discouraged, I don't know), BUT the harlequin pattern is a variation of merle, and in some harl. breedings (especially harl. x harl.), you will have merles, so it's unavoidable. The merle gene itself, if only one is present, does not cause problems other than those associated with dilution of pigment in areas where merling is present. Many breeds can have the merle pattern, Danes, Catahoulas, Aus. Shepherds, Dachshunds, Collies, Corgis, and some others; and the majority of merles in those breeds are healthy, or at least no less healthy than the non-merled representatives of the breeds. The problems arise when two merle dogs are bred, as when a dog gets two copies of the merle gene (this pattern is called double merle, but something referred to as lethal merle, or lethal whites because of the problems associated with it), it also gets a double dose of the merle pattern itself, resulting in some areas getting diluted twice rather than just once. These double merled areas are white, normal merled areas are simply diluted, and non-merled areas are still the normal base color. Double merles can have deformed internal organs, immune deficiencies, and may have deformities such as small/underdeveloped/completely missing eyes should there be areas of double merle over the eyes. This is a good article explaining double merles, and health problems associated with them (Dachshund people call merles "dapples", have to make things difficult :wink: ): http://www.dachshund.org/article_double_dapple.html

    Danes in general can have many health problems, and I've seen quite a few (considering that we don't see many danes around here) with skin problems, so your mom's dogs' problems may not be related to color at all, just bad luck with genetics. Are they from good breeders?

    You say the new one is a black/white merle, like this?
    http://www.6stardanes.com/colors.html#H

    This seems like a good article on harlequins (the dogs in the link just above), and the genetics behind the color, if thats what the new pup is (I know next to nothing about that pattern).
    http://www.greatdanerescueinc.com/ColorPattern.html

    On merle APBTs... The pattern has never occurred in APBTs until recently, and it only takes one copy of the merle gene for a dog to be merle, therefore a dog cannot "carry" it recessively for generations with it eventually just "appearing" as merle breeders like to say occurred. Some people also find it suspicious that merle APBTs first appearred in the south, where Catahoula x APBT mixes are commonly used as hog dogs... some of these crosses would undoubtably be merle, and would look similar to APBTs, especially if crossed with a pure APBT for the next generation. The only way to know for sure would be to get DNA from a merle APBT, as well as all of its ancestors back to non-merle dogs, to see if things matched up (in which case, it could be assumed that some sort of mutation did occur, which is uncommon in animals, and mutations often have other problems associated with them that can affect the mutated animal) or not (in which case, the fake papers should be taken of the dogs, as well as all their offspring). That's not going to happen though, so it'll remain a mystery.

    Your mom's dogs are beautiful, btw... I love natural earred danes :)
     
  16. Sara

    Sara New Member

    There is a genetic deal for the silvering but that's not what I'm thinking of because most Weims or all aren't born black... I'm thinking of the black dilute rather than the liver dilute. Dogs with the black dilute (weims) are starting to have problems according to an article I read a while back... It was never a goal to have black diluted dogs in the Weim world until recently...just like APBT's...

    There's not enough long term research on dilutes (hasn't been popular beyond Weims until now) so I think it's hard for anyone to really say what health problems are absolutely caused by dilute color in dogs... Shelties have big issues with the merle coloration as well as ACD's...there are more health problems than just skin probs. that occur in both of these breeds as a result of the merle coat coloration--they're both breeds where Merle coloration is common but they're trying to move away from it to keep the breed healthier etc...

    Color genetics is soo much of a crapshoot it's rediculous to breed FOR color alone and I think THAT's why there's more of an increase in health problems when it comes to blues and merles... People think they're neat colors and breed for them without properly researching what problems occur in that coloration when two dogs of that color (genetic make-up) are bred to one another...they do this breeding generation after generation and there are other things that are BOUND to crop up because of the color genetics...it happens all the time...

    Don't buy for color...it was funny one of the articles I read was about the skin problems that blue APBT's have...but the breeders are still breeding the dogs with the bad skin to produce the color... Classic example of what I described above. They think it's no big deal but the weak immune system and hair problems will lead to even more issues as the recessive genes in that make-up of color (bad skin, cancer maybe) are more likely to pop up the more the dogs are bred to create more unhealthy dogs to breed again...
     
  17. goob

    goob New Member

    There is not a "black dilute" and "liver dilute". There are diluted black dogs and diluted liver dogs... but the dilute gene is the same for both. The only difference is that liver dogs also have the modifier that turns what would be black pigment to liver. If the dilute gene was the cause of problems, all dilute dogs would have these problems, regardless of whether they were liver, black, whatever. It's possible that there could be a problem when black coats were diluted only, but since blue dogs occur in plenty of breeds other than APBTs, this is unlikely.

    Merle is not a color that occurs naturally in ACDs (ie: if you have a merle ACD, it's not a pure ACD). Shelties only have problems with the merle pattern when they are double merles, and have the problems associated with that. Merle shelties have been around for decades without problems, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
    Merle sheltie genetics: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Merle.html

    When you breed with disregard for health, temperament, etc for generation after generation as most "color breeders" do, you're absoutely right that you will have problems.... not just because of color genetics though, because of all the genetic componanets of the dogs, and the fact that these breeders get so caught up in that they don't pay attention to what else their dogs have aside from a pretty color.

    There is absolutely no substantial evidence that dilute colors have the problems you're saying they do (aside from CDA and issues related to it), only hearsay and accounts from people as to the unhealthy dogs produced by BYBs breeding dogs with bad genetics anyway (such as the one above, blaming allergies, etc on blue coats as a copout for breeding dogs with weak immune systems). On the other side, there are plenty of blue dogs from reputable breeders who have quality stock, that are healthy and show no signs of these problems blue dogs are supposed to be plagued with.
     

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