breeding cruelty?

MY Opinion.

My answers to Angelus's post:

1. Of course some people tape up a dog to keep them from biting. These people are called IDIOTS. They shouldn't even be breeding if they are too cheap to buy a muzzle or too stupid to think that vets use tape on a dog like that.

2. No, what they did was NOT right.

If you have such a strong opinion about breeding or "raping" the dogs, then you should have spoken up instead of not saying anything at all and then posting here and getting all upset when people post THEIR OWN OPINION.

3. If the dog was trained to fight, why wouldn't she want to fight off the male? This doesn't mean that she is being raped. Just that she wants to fight, probably just like she would want to fight any other dog. Why would they breed her anyway if she was trained for fighting?

 

YIKES!!! The radiating off this post is gonna give me sunburn!!!
Whoa. I have a couple of mixed thing to say because I just read all the posts so I am just going to ramble about my usual ways.

1) Muzzles are NOT cruel to dogs. In fac tin many states, large breed dogs are not allowed to wlak outside wihtout a muzzle on. I know of a women who muzzles her dog on her own whe they go out walking. Her dog is a bit skittish, and god forbid a child sneak up on the poor thing and get bit out of fear. Muzzles are a way of protecting you dog, NOT restricing them. There are enough knowledgable people out there, that would put a stop to muzzling in a second if they felt it hurt the dog. My dog used to have to get muzzled to get her nails clipped. She didn't seem to mind and focused more on the treat she was going to get afterwards.

2) Mating is a natural instinct in animals. As an avid watcher of outdoor animal shows and whatnot, I have seen many different animals mate, and it is all very aggressive, this is called INSTINCT. With many antlered animals, two males will first have to fight each other to earn the "right" to mate the female. If all animals stopped mating, everything would be extinct. Hence Panda bears. They almost all have to be AI'd now because they have refused to breed, and are dying out because of this.

3) Although I personally don't agree with breeding, that may just be because I don't have a dog worthy of breeding. Remember, professional breeders BETTER the breed, and Pit Bulls need to start getting a better reputation. BYB's are ruining it for all the reputable people out there bettering the breed and producing great animals. I rescued my dog, but if ever I wanted to show my dog, or do any competitions, I would go to a breeder to get my dog. That's why these "technologies" such as muzzles and breeding cages were made, to help PROTECT the dogs (yes, both male AND female) from getting harmed in the process. And again, as many have said, she was a fighting dog, so that's probably why she was trying to fight the male. Its INSTINCT to them because that's what they've been taught.

No one is agreeing that the monster should have bred her. No one is agreeing that her muzzle should have been taped. They are just tryign to show that, there are better methods of mating if you are going to. A lot of people come on here everyday claiming they have what COULD be a "show dog" and are going to breed. Now, we can't talk them all out of this but always try to give them as much information as we can, and educate them, because mostly they know nothing. That's what they are doing... educating.

 

Ok....rape, I'm sorry but I kinda had to laugh at that one!! I highly doubt that the excuse "I have a headache" works in the wild.

First off, Bitches trained to fight, will fight no matter what.
Secondly, Selective breeding is done to BETTER the breeds, not like BYB's that will just throw 2 dogs together.
If the bitch didn't want to breed with that dog, but later a mutt came along and she thought Ok...well you know what would happen next, no need for me to get in on it.

Yes animals go to some extreme lengths to breed, we all know this (or at least most of us do).

Its agressive, and looks harsh, but how do we know that its not estacy to them?
We love on each other and snuggle (or well most of us) then get on with our buisness, its our nature. Animals go about theres in other ways. Some mate for life, and others will breed witha nything!


Just don't consider it that way. As being harsh and rape. Think of it this way, how else do you get the wonderful dogs you have today? Selective breeding. Ever heard of Darwins theory of Natural Selection?

 

Trying to compare humans and animals with ANYTHING isn't even considered worth reading, if you ask me. My goodness, we are not our dogs, and our dogs are not us!

Dogs do not 'get raped'. Come on! Get a grip on reality here.

If you have ever seen a breeding before, you will see that most bitches WANT it. They flaunt it in the male's face. They will do everything to get this male on her. He mounts her and within SECONDS she is fighting him tooth and nail wanting him off. At this point, it looks like neither one of them want it. It is a normal process whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Then you get a bitch who will flaunt it and flaunt it, but won't let a male near her at all. Sure with some people, they will try to breed too early. Alot of them think you are suppose to breed as soon as blood is present. This of course is too early and the female will fight off the male. Usually it takes over a week from 1st sight of blood that they are willing to breed. 8 - 12 days from the onset of blood is when they usually NEED to be bred, BEFORE ovulation. A breeder HAS to breed within certain days of her cycle. Too early OR too late and she will not take. Sometimes you need to take the extra steps to insure the breeding. Most the time, it isn't needed, but a breeder needs to be prepared. [/list]

 

A friend is already planning on using a breed stand, this will prevent any problems and make breeding smoother. The bitch tries to get all the dogs to fight with her, so there is no way she is going to breed without some intervention. Without humans she would be bred with a good fight, that sounds a lot worst then using a breeding stand to secure her. He already knows she will fight male dogs, not just female. I called and asked about how she was doing and he told me "Mean as ever". He moved a male to a different chain space and he worked his way loose and ran over to her, she took him down and took a chunk out of his ear/head. He is considerbly bigger than her, she is 30lbs and he is 45lbs, but that didn't matter to her. She enjoys a fight, she'll do the same thing if a male tried to breed her. So it will be much smoother and less complicated using a breeding stand. It is the responsibility of the breeder to make sure breeding goes as smooth as possible, and everything else to. Like labor and whelping. Naturally problems can occur and would could kill the mom/pups, instead of just saying that nature let it be, its the person who has to do the best thing possible in any situation, especially if they have taken on breeding. There are some people out there who have actually said that sort of thing!!! Now that isn't right, their female dies the litter dies and they did nothing to help her or the pups, just said thats nature, let it take its course. I can breed again! How uncaring and selfish is that. I know some one who puts his dogs in a big garage to breed, he lets them go at it on their own in some cases the female has gotten injured, they usually do their little fight before the male "wins" and he takes pics of this like he enjoys watching it. Its one thing to take a pic of a breeding (as you shoud), but he gets pics of the fighting that goes on before hand then shows them off.

 

All I can say is WOW!!!!

After reading this, all I can think is "How silly". I'm not going to go over what everyone else said about the taping being wrong, using a muzzle and/or stand, etc (which I agree with by the way), but whoever it was that said it's like RAPE to the female - that's just retarded! Again, not going to restate what everyone else has said as to why it's not rape, but I just had to comment on how ignorant the person is who said it is RAPE! My goodness - learn a little about animals before you try to be a pet psychologist! I'm not even very knowledgable about breeding at all, but I know that a lot of the time, a breeding between two animals (ANY animals) can be very brutal. Okay - I'm going to stop ranting now, or I'll never stop.

 

Re: MY Opinion.

I DID bring it up to my boyfriend. this incident happened like 2 years ago. we had this HUGE ass fight about it, actually several fights. we've been broken up for over a year now and we became friends again. just recently did this topic come up again when one of my best friends moved in with him and they were talking. so i just figured i'd post about it on a board that has other dog breeders on it and ask about this taping thing.

 

No Subject

As a breeder myself, I have to say that I have never used a muzzle OR a breeding rack during a breeding. If the bitch is not receptive she gets artificially inseminated. PERIOD.

To force any animal (human or otherwise) to breed is Rape.

 

Re: No Subject

Hey "Berardchik" As a breeder MYself, I have to ask -- what breed do you breed? Cheewaawaa? LOL

 

Re: No Subject

Hi!

 

Thats great for your dogs.
But how can you say its rape, animals are not humans. Humans enjoy sex and concent. Otherwise it is rape. Rape is about power, control and humiliation(not sex or mating), a male dog cannot think of these things and his reasons for forcing mating upon the female have nothing to do with any of that. Its sex drive. Otherwise you are saying these animals insticts are flawed and God's design is wrong. These is lunacy. Accusing a dog of rape is like accusing one that kills of murder, one that bites assult, one that raids a trash can theif. You sound so silly, dogs are destroyed or put under restrictions and under the care of humans because of the very fact they can't reason they are animals. They can't think evil thoughts, they have no morals or values, thats one thing that seperates humans from others. Dogs cannot stand trial, the don't have a real concept of right and wrong like we do. Most the time when dogs "know" they have done something bad it is because of human conditioning. Sorry but its not rape, its the natural instinct of the animals. Koala's dont really rape one another, how can you believe such a thing, it may look brutal to us humans but thats what these animals do. Again they have no concept of rape, murder, assult, theif, ect so they can't be commiting these acts. They don't have motive and really soley on instincts instilled in them to survive. Breeding would be one of these because for the species to survive the animals have to breed.

 

rape?? are you serious?? people are takin this to a whole other level... and stop comparin your kids with your dogs.. for a breeder, that was their whole purpose of gettin the dog in the first place.. they werent lookin for a child.. rape.. man.. we are gonna have to make a doggie prison for are dogs that commit these crimes

 

Hi i am sorry but i had to say something i dont breed pits but i do german shepherds.
Anyone with any knowlegde or sence of breeding knows if a bitch wont allow the dog to mount then She has either just started her cycle, She is not ready, She is coming to the end of her cycle or she may have back and hip problems which hurts when the dog mounts.

Also there is some bitches that will never be bred from as they have a high level of testosterone which makes them the dominant one and so will never allow mating.

Forcing a bitch to axcept the male is barbaric only someone out to make money would do such a thing and to confine a bitch so she cant move while they dog mates her is just sick.

If people are going to breed then they should have all the tests and health checks done on there dogs from the sounds of this thread the owner didnt care about that or his bitch just the number of puppies she would have and the money he would make but what he wont have thought of is the infections the dog could have past to the bitch which could cause uterine cancer and cause her to self abort the litter or the litter coming out deformed.

If a bitch wont allow mating so be it try again in a couple of days or get a test done to see if she is coming to her stage of ovulating most bitches wont stand for a male unless she is ovulating.

So really the owners of that poor girl really need a reality check and if i ever saw such a thing happening i would not think twice about intervining and having something to say and yes i have actually taken dogs off people for them mistreating them or neglecting them i really dont care.

My first priority is the animal. If people are just going to use there poor girl just to make money from her or to use them for fighting they really should not have pets.

Sorry but had to vent this thread has me furious.

mike :x

 

you jus take the dogs for irresponsible owners huh?? by force?? jus cuz you thought they were mistreatin their dogs?? i dont think force breedin is abuse.. people see their animals in different views.. some jus want to breed, and some want a pet.. some want to eat their dogs.. hmmmm

 

This right here shows you have no idea what you are going to be talking about, Breeding yes GSDs not APBTs.

OR she likes to fight like the bitch I have given my friend, therefore when she sees another dog she is going to want to FIGHT it, it has nothing to do with not being at the right time in her heat cycle because there is test to she when she is ready, or bad hips/back because there is Pen Hip. You need to get your info correct, if a female wants to fight, they want to fight, it has nothing to do with breeding.
She is one who foams at the mouth she wants it so bad. We were joking about her too. LOL. He is building indoor kennels that w/ Heat/AC and between the kennels is 4 feet of cinder blocks to prevetn fence fighting. On the front where the gates are going to be they will be a foot above the ground. So the gate and front fencing sits on a 1 foot of cement, you would open it and step over. This is to prevent them from excaping, but we were joking and he is going to have to put something to block her site of the dog across from her so she can't get site of it. Otherwise she will be in there raising kane..lol
This is getting all out of hand, if PEOPLE weren't involved with breeding animals the females would be forced to breed by the male, both could receive minor or severe injuries, one or both could even die. Maybe we should let out animals go and have their own doggie societies and they can be just like us humans. What sounds right, letting animals breed on their own, going through a struggle with the male trying to mount the female while she is turning and biting. Jerking and the male biting her and holding onto her as good as possible, or the bitch kept still so she can't fight the male and the male won't hurt her on himself because by jeking and fighting. Or AI is a good way too, but then that rape and molestation, you are sticking something where it "doesnt belong" and you have no right to inseminate her, it her body...lol As I'm sure somebody somewhere is going to say that.

I don't know about this. I guess it could be a possiblility, but Pit Bulls (male or female) don't fight because they a high testosterone level, they do it because they like it, its fun for these animals.

LMAO, for money huh....Sorry hun but I don't advertise dogs/pups. I'm not a puppy peddler and I dispise them so don't go accusing people of things and running your mouth making blanket statements. Real breeders don't breed for money, even if you do sell a pup you can never make any profit off that dog after the thousands of dollars it take to keep and raise dogs. I am hardly out to make money. Its obvious you don't really know what you are talking about. Breeding stands are widely used and very safe.

Actually its not sick at all, it keeps the animals both safe. You cant always let everything happen naturally, humans who have decided to breed need to be responsible and intervene where necessary. It is the persons responsibility, dogs can't govern themselves, make their own decisions, or help themselves. They need humans otherwise all these females would be bred in the first place because males have a very HIGH sex drive in most cases and won't quit until they have finished the job or physically cannot. Why is it wrong/sick to help this natural process occur? Thats where I think this whole thing is bizzare, breeding is natural, dogs will breed like this, by helping them and making sure they are safe we are being sick?

 

If you were there watching it happen you should have said something. Fine, you told your bf THAT DIDNT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. You could have told the guy that you didnt think it was right and the dog could get hurt. Is your boyfriend a "breeder"? If not, then why would he tell you to shut up bc you are not a breeder when he isnt either?
anyway, everybody has their own opinion.

 

So what your basically saying is its perfectly correct to allow this sort of breeding.
Well sorry but thats not right no animal should be forced to mate.
A bitch that is agressive should not be bred from anyway.
I know there is a test to know when they ready actually it cant tell you exactly when she is ready they can just give you an estimated guess as each bitch is different some ovulate the begining some the middle and some the end.

For me not to know what i am saying is a load of bollocks i have been breeding for a few years i have been round breeders all my life.

My uncle breeds APBT's and bullmastiffs and he agrees that making a bitch accept a male is out of order and it is actual fact cruel.

Just wanting to breed is no reason to do it there is the health of the dogs the care of the bitch before mating after mating during pregnancy after pregnancy.

I would hate to see what this man puts his pups through if they wont eat for the first time does he shove food down there throats.

He has no right calling himself a breeder or even breeding full stop him and people like him are the reason there is so many badly bred dogs in the world ones with health problems temperament problems.

I dont blame his bitch for attacking the male if he does this.
Does he realize the damage he can actually do to the bitch if she is not ready for mating and he forces her.
A bitch that is not ready to stand for a male her vulva is not soft enough to take the trauma of mating and he could have actually caused a problem within her vulva.

I would not be at all suprised if he has never had these dogs checked out to make sure there is nothing wrong with them.

This is my opinion on the matter and i really hope for his bitches sake that she she is ok and has not been hurt.

If none of my bitches will stand for the male at anytime during there cycle i never force them i leave it and try again the following year.

One of my bitches has just had her first litter and she is 5year old as she would never stand for a male this cycle i was lucky.

How many litters and at what age does he think its right to stop breeding from his bitch does he have any idea.

 

alot of people here are taking the 'well, if it is rape, then whos fault is it' the wrong way. for the people who havent been reading properly, we are not talking about what the male dog is doing. we dont really care, he has no say. we are talking about the human intervention. so daddyfs, your comment on a doggy prison in particular, was rather uh, well, you know. make sure you understand whats going on before posting

p.s i dont have any kids to compare to, nor do i like them.

 

Against my better judgement I'm going to get into this one. I haven't read all the posts so if I repeat anything that has already been written, well, just deal with it.

I don't believe any dog that does not want to be bred should be forced to. That is not your choice. If she's not receptive then get over it, find a bitch who is.

While I'm hesitant to necessarily refer to it as rape, how do you know the bitch doesn't see it in that way? I have read posts where you say that you don't know what is going on in the female's head. So how exactly can you say she doesn't look at it in that way? The fact is, you don't know how your dog thinks, feels, etc. about any given thing so don't pretend to know what's best for your dog.

And taping a dog's mouth shut is not the right way to do anything.

 

why are you getting on MY case about this? ok, I WAS NOT THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED. I heard about it later on. my bf just for some reason happened to mention his friend had a bitch that didnt want to breed so he had to tape her mouth shut. and I told him how messed up that seemed to me. we had plenty of arguments about it, and he did mention to his friend about the tape thing *or so he told me he talked to him about it* but I was hardly ever around his friend bec/ i hated him so much for plenty of other reasons and this whole tape thing just topped it off. and I know my bf at the time wasnt a breeder, he was just learning about it, he just wanted to take his friend's side over mine even if his friend did turn out to be wrong. do you need to know anymore details about my relationship with my ex and this particular incident? bec/ i dont think its necessary for me to go giving you this whole descriptive story about what happened or why, the point is it happened and i wanted to know from other breeders if tape was the right thing to do or not. besides i cant get anymore detailed then this it happened 2 YEARS ago, not exactly fresh in my mind anymore. this whole topic just happened to come up again recent so i just figured i'd ask about it, OKAY?