Feeding Raw

I am a little confused about this whole feeding raw thing. I am considering switching to Raw but I am doingmy research first. One good question I have is.....When feeding Chicken, do I or don't I give the bones?? I don't want to hurt Zeus, and I always thought chicken bones were bad for dogs. Plus, does anyone know of any good sites where I could read up more on feeding raw??

 

Here are some random links for you to read, they are articles or sites I have read along the way, some are for and some are against. I do not agree with all...but you gotta read alot of points of views to make up your own mind.

http://www.barfworld.com/

http://www.bluegrace.com/barf.html

http://www.touchmoon.com/dotters/raw/index.shtml

http://ighawaii.com/naturally/newsletter/barf.html

http://disc.server.com/Indices/55919.html

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/nutrition.html

http://www.rawfoodlife.com/barf_faq.html

http://www.naturalrearing.com/

http://catatonic.freeservers.com/holistic.html

http://www.mybluedog.com/rawmeat.html (against)

http://www.bestfrisbeedogs.com/mybluedog.html (reply to above site by Dr. Ian Billingquist)

http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=rawdogs

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/

http://www.users.bigpond.com/tedroo/gang/diet.html

http://www.batangabee.com/acd/diet.htm

http://www.diamondpaws.com/health/rawswitch.htm

http://www.naturallyhealthypet.com/feeding.htm

http://www.geocities.com/abbiton/feeding.html

http://www.switchingtoraw.com/

http://www.naturalcanine.com/

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/contrast.html

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles.htm

http://petplace.netscape.com/articles/a ... artID=3425

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... icleid=702

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1158/animals.htm

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

http://www.intherawpetfood.com/

http://www.boxerunderground.com/bu2000/ ... ooking.htm

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/animalfeed/petfoods.htm

Hopefully some of the others will jump in and give you more, yahoo has several raw feeders forums too.

 

Thats Dr. Ian Billinghurst...sorry.

 

I think Maisey gave you enough to get started.

I frequent a Yahoo rawfeeders group, which has been very helpful to me. It is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

Much of the info out there is conflicting. I think there is no way to be sure of anything - almost everything is "shown" to be bad in one study and good in another. I fell back on common sense when in doubt.

I chose to go the way of the "prey model" - meaning that I try to feed Nala as close as possible to how she would eat in the wild. Whole, raw foods in as close to the natural state as possible - although I am still leary of getting things like rabbit with the fur on or chicken with the feathers on, etc. That's just the old ways of thinking hanging on, though. It's hard to overcome a lifetime of impressions.

Think of it this way, though. Everyone seems to feel competent to feed their human children "real" food. Why would it be more complex to feed a dog than to feed a child? And also, people get so hung up on the "perfect" diet - like if we don't feed the crap-in-a-bag stuff (which is made by "scientists" and therefore much better than anything WE could do with our inferior brains) how can we possibly ensure the dog is getting everything it needs? But, how do you know your CHILD is getting everything? Do you keep up with every medical study on nutrition? Is your child getting anti-oxidants, omega-3's, and all the other nutrients in the proper percentages? Are you? What exactly ARE the proper percentages??

I find it telling that in feeding our dogs commercial food, we have caused pets to display all the same diseases that humans get - liver, heart, kidney, pancreas, diabetes, thyroid, etc. Obviously, we are doing something wrong in our studies and attempts at proper nutrition, both for humans and animals. Why not fall back on nature for the dog? It may not be perfect, but it's probably better than anything artificial we can construct.

After all, how many of you would rather trust a powder made by scientists to give you "everything your body requires" rather than eating whole foods as best you can?


Jamiya

 

I'm going to check out those links too. I've been thinking about raw lately. I'm curious, do you think it would be okay to just supplement with some premade raw? For instance, I like to give Natalie a little bit of canned food in the evening sometimes....maybe I can give her a little premade raw instead of the canned food? Not sure if I'll try this or not but I've been thinking about it.
Another question....face licking is a concern. Do you guys have a hard time avoiding having your faces licked after your dogs eat? How long after they eat is it okay for them to lick your face? Not that I enjoy getting my face licked and I'm sure she spreads plenty of germs to me without eating raw but sometimes Natalie comes up and does this when I'm least expecting it. I was really paranoid about this after I gave her a NV raw beef pattie.

Maisey: I am correct that you feed premade raw several days a week and kibble the other days? If so, are there no digestive upsets in doing this?

 

I have fed BARF for months now to my 3 yr old Pit Bull. He is GREAT on it and I wish I had known about it sooner. There are always conflicting opinions on what to feed a dog. I wasy go with what YOU feel is best for you and your dog. I do.

This is how you determine ABOUT how much to feed your dog
Multiply your dogs weight by 16 to get the number of ounces he weighs.
Multiply that by .02, which gives you 2 % of his body weight.
Multiply that by .6 to give you the weight of RMB you should feed. That is chicken necks, wings, backs etc.
Go back to the 2% of his body weight again and multiply that number by .4 to get the weight in ounces of vegetable patty mix you should feed

I'm really concerned about salmonella. Am I over-reacting?

When first starting BARF, many people were actually overly compulsive and obsessive with regards to possible salmonella poisoning. In fact, I was one of them. I wore latex gloves when handling the chicken and I never allowed one tiny piece of chicken to touch ANYTHING in my kitchen. I was totally neurotic. After a couple of weeks of BARF, I began to relax a bit. I now use my bare hands when handling and practice proper food handling techniques. Knock on wood, none of my dogs or family members have gotten sick. To this day though, I won't allow ANYONE into my kitchen when I'm wrapping 80 pounds of chicken backs....NOT UNTIL I'M DONE and everything's been wiped down with Mr. Clean, Antibacterial full-strength (yes, it even kills salmonella). :>)

According to an FDA news release, "salmonella is not harmful to dogs". The message? Salmonella is everywhere - not just in raw meats. Employ basic hygiene practices, wash your hands and keep surfaces clean - just as you would when handling your own food. Simple, really!







It is a decision the OWNER must make for the SAKE of the dog. If you do enough research you will decide for your self what is BEST for you and your dogs. I did..


I feed 2 leg quarters or 3 ribs or 12 chicken wings, 1 tsp alfalfa powder, 1 tsp flaxseed or veg oil, 1/2 cup cottage cheese, 1 raw egg ground up,or yogurt, carrots or green beans ground up, lettuce ground up, squash, vitamin e 200 mg daily, this is for Foolish a 70+ plus lb dog though.

I feed this amount once daily, cut into half fed twice, I freeze a weeks worth of food for the dogs. I spend about 40 dollers for 3 to 4 weeks of food for 3 dogs. I buy the leg quarters at Walmart for 3.96 for a 10 lb bag, and ribs at Market place .96 cents a lb, and everything else I get at the local Save-A-Lot and Farmers market or Produce store. Doesnt hurt that my family owns a farm that raises Black Angus and and few other live stock. lol


Kim


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I think ppl play are taking a chance when they feed their dog any food, especially when its something the dog would not NORMALLY be eating anyway. I feel the diet of my dogs is appropriate for them and eliminates the allergies, skin conditions, arthritis, and has been show to help pets live LONGer happier lives, who would not want that?


Kim

 

I am finding this whole subject fascinating, and I have a few questions.

Re: "I find it telling that in feeding our dogs commercial food, we have caused pets to display all the same diseases that humans get - liver, heart, kidney, pancreas, diabetes, thyroid, etc."

-- Why are these diseases in dogs attributed to commercial foods? I believe that dogs in the wild, as well as other animals (who eat only in their 'natural' states) get these diseases also. Anything that has a liver can have liver disease or failure, for example.

Re: "Obviously, we are doing something wrong in our studies and attempts at proper nutrition, both for humans and animals."

-- Well..... people are living much, much longer all the time. This is attributed partly to advanced medical care but also to the fact that we know much more about the human body's nutritional needs than we used to. We eat much better today. Just because humans still get liver and other diseases does not necessarily mean that they're getting it from poor diets.

As for dogs, I don't how how long they were living 100 + years ago. So unless there is conclusive evidence that they used to live longer than they do now, I don't see how the finger can be pointed at commercially-prepared nutrition.

How much time and research have the proponents of raw feeding done on dogs in the wild? Is it true that dogs in the wild are doing so much better than domesticated dogs? Are the raw proponents claiming that wild dogs don't have diseases, don't get cancer, don't get mange, worms and even tick and flea infestations so severe that it compromises their immune systems? Do they know how long these dogs are living? It seems that there would have to be some very careful, close, prolonged study of 'wild' diets and longevity, etc. in order to make some of the claims that they do.

We tend to think of 'natural' as 'better.' But that's certainly not always the case. The abovementioned things: fleas, worms, even liver disease and cancer-- are all 'natural.'

At some point I plan to pick up a book or two on the subject, but these are just a few of my observations after reading these posts. And one more:

Another thought, I've heard raw feeding proponents claim that vets and anyone else who claims that commercial is better is somehow 'beholden' to the commercial dog food in that they sell their food. But don't the raw feeding proponents sell their books and lectures? So couldn't it also be said that they have a stake in getting others to believe them as well?

At some point I plan to pick up a book or two on the subject, but these are just a few of my observations after reading these posts. Please believe that I am just interested in discussing these things. I am not trying to start a war, or make any kind of trouble. There are so many claims flying around out there..... anyway, thanks!

 

I feed my dogs raw after a bit of research (ongoing), I found it to be the most logical natural thing to do. You can get a bit hung up on whether your dog is getting all it's nutritional requirements, but it's true as Jamiya said... you don't measure out exactly your own food and make sure you get the appropriate amount of vitamins and minerals each day, so why do this for your dog? I sometimes think my dogs are healthier than me!!

Anyway I have never been concerned about feeding raw meat, after all we have always given our dogs raw bones to chew on, which some of them would bury and dig up a week later and keep chewing away happily and never get sick. The bones really smell at this stage and I'm sure if I had a chew on one I'd definately get sick!! Dogs can handle this bacteria, sturdy little buggers.

Regarding feeding raw chicken bones I was nervous about this also, but after a while my fears subsided and I have had no problems with feeding these. I have asked a few different vets and they haven't had any patients come in with injury resulting from eating raw chicken bones. They are apparently highly nutritious to give to your dog/s, and oh so cheap. I feed my dogs chicken backs, wings, necks aswell as lamb necks, rabbits, lamb bones, beef bones, mince or chunk meat, roo meat, sometimes somes pulverised veggies, sometimes bits of fruit. My pup actually eats heaps of Figs from our fig tree out the back, and plums that fall on the ground. Getting back to the topic of raw chicken bones--you have to make up your own mind. My dogs looove them and can't get enough.

I love my dogs to peices and would never do anything to jepeordise their quality of life. I find that commercial dog food is a way to get rid of the meat scraps and offal that humans cannot eat, and a great way to make money from it. It's quite disgusting the ingredients that supposedly go into this stuff. If you are feeding a commercial diet I would go for better quality ones. I keep some good quality dry food that I also give to my dogs occasionally, the brand I chose was recommended by my breeder and my vet. By the way, I have been feeding my pup raw since I got her and I took her to the vet for vacc & the vet went on and on about how healthy she was and how good she looked. He said that whatever I was doing seemed to be working great--he was extra pleased with her and I was very proud!!!

Let us know what you decide... :idea:

 

Sure, anything with a liver can get liver disease. But if I drink a bottle of vodka every day, do you suppose I am more likely to get liver disease than someone who does not? Yup. What you eat definitely effects the health of your organs.

Read "Give Your Dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst. He is an Australian vet. In Australia, they came later to kibble than we did. Americans have been feeding kibble for about 60 years, and Australians only for about 30 years. Dr. Billinghurst tells about all the diseases he never saw, but the American vets were treating all the time. As time went on, he started seeing more of these cases in HIS practice in Australia. Eventually, through the patients he saw and his own dogs (which he switched to kibble) he realized there was a connection - the kibble-fed dogs were getting all sorts of degenerative diseases. He switched his dogs back to raw (as they traditionally were fed in the past) and recommended it for his clients, and the diseases started to disappear again.

Of course, a raw fed dog may still get sick, but the probability is a lot lower.

"Raw Meaty Bones" by Tom Lonsdale is another book to look at. Like Billinghurst, he is also a vet and also noticed the link between kibble and more disease and struggled very hard (and is probably still struggling) to get the rest of the vet community to realize what is happening. Scientists, vets, doctors - they all move very slowly. They are slow to accept change. It often takes decades for them to take note and DO SOMETHING about problems that were uncovered by a few revolutionaries that were ignored and ridiculed.

A HUGE problem is tooth decay. Tooth decay causes all sorts of other health issues in dogs (and cats). And a kibble-fed dog needs a dental cleaning once every 6 months or so, unless you manage to brush his teeth well enough to keep them clean. That's another thing Billinghurt noticed - American vets did all this dental work and there was no need for it in Australia - until they started feeding kibble! Raw feeding with RMB's cleans your dog's teeth naturally. They will NEVER need a dental cleaning at the vet - which saves a TON of money!

In fact, Bonnie's teeth had some tartar build-up when we got her. After a month on raw, they are sparkly clean. No tartar AT ALL. Her breath is fresh, and her doggie smell is gone. She poops a lot less, too! Oh, and remember the thread about dog urine burning your lawn? I wondered why I had never noticed this, but I just found it in Billinghurst's book - kibble causes more concentrated, alkaline urine which burns the lawn.

As for face licking - a lot of people are concerned about that. The fact is, no one has gotten sick from a raw fed dog licking their face after eating. Did you know there can be bacteria in kibble? So if you let your kibble-fed dog lick you, then why not raw fed?

I just use safe meat-handling procedures and feed the dogs outside so I don't have to clean bowls or anything like that. If the weather is really nasty, I feed them in their crates and wash the whole crate pan in the bathtub when they are done.

Most dry foods do not contain enough essential fatty acids - this results in problems with growth, reproduction, and causes skin diseases. Most dry foods have an excess of calcium. The calcium combines with zinc producing a compound that cannot be absorbed, creating a zinc deficiency. This causes skeletal and growth problems, skin problems, infertility, diabetes, pancreatitis, etc. The excess calcium is also implicated in bloat. Dry dog food creates dental problems, which is turn creates all sorts of problems - especially in the kidneys and the heart. High cereal levels in dry food cause all sorts of problems - obesity, pancreatic insufficiency, diabetes, arthritis, bladder stones, skin problems, dental problems, cancer, etc. Most dry foods contain an excess of protein, which can cause kidney disease. The excess sodium found in many dry foods can cause heart disease. Also, the cooking process used to make dry foods destroys a lot of nutrients.

I think the premium foods have addressed a lot of these issues. But still - think about your breakfast cereal that is fortofied with all sorts of vitamins. Or your vitamin tablets. Haven't you ever read that it is better to get these vitamins in their REAL forms than in a supplement? Why do you suppose that is? And the premium kibbles are still cooked at high temperatures.

Scientists don't know the whole story. They don't know everything about the trace elements that are present in real food. They don't know what EXACTLY a dog or a human or a horse needs to be healthy. Why do you suppose the articles on nutrition change yearly or even monthly - they say this is good....and then they change their minds and say it is bad. How many "food pyramids" have we gone through in the last few years? Why do they "daily recommendations" change all the time? Because scientists don't know.

Commercial dog food is promoted by companies that stand to make a profit from it. People have been brainwashed to think they are too stupid to feed their own dogs.


Jamiya

 

People have different ideas about the raw diet and my suggestion if you become confused, is NOT to go back to commercial foods, but start thinking about what is best for your dog (or cat).

Start with the basics - raw chicken bones - carcasses, wings, necks. For the majority of raw feeders - that is the base of the majority of their dogs meals. However, if chicken is not available readily, use what is available locally - raw meaty - lamb, beef, venison, duck, rabbit, kangaroo, pig, raw whole fish. You get the picture.

Please note: Dogs do not have the digestive system to cope with grains. Grains are one of the biggest sources of allergies in dogs. Grains make up the majority of dog food company food sources. Many people find when they switch to an all natural diet, the allergies their dogs had disappear. This is common.

Not only is feeding raw cheaper to feed than commercial dog foods, but there are enormous savings to be made by not having all those vet visits to fix your dogs' allergies. Are you asking yourself yet, "why hasn't my vet recommended this?" Yes, I would ask that of them too. Unfortunately most vets receive NO education at university on dog diet other than what the commercial dog food company reps tell them! (yes, this is the education they PAY to get - unbelievable. Luckily, some universities are realizing this mistake and are making amends).



Raw chicken bones are fantastic for your dog. They are soft enough so that they bend easily, and break well for the dog to digest.
On the other hand, cooked chicken bones can be a problem, and I recommend that you DON'T feed COOKED chicken bones.

So could a raw chicken bone kill a dog? Well I guess that anything is possible. Certainly scientifically you can't prove a negative argument. However what we do know is that dogs have died from inhaling kibble the wrong way and choking and suffocating to death.

Feeding your dog is about management of risk. No matter which path you decide to take there is always risk. There is always someone who will criticise your decision. However you, and only you can decide what is best for your dogs. Weigh up all the benefits and risks. Do your own analysis. Do your research. Do what will have the greatest overall benefit for your dog.


These benefits include:


no doggy odour

naturally cleans teeth - no need for toothbrushes, de-scaling jobs, or gum disease

the time it takes for a dog to chew a raw meaty bones give their stomach adequate time to get the acids moving

much less stools produced - and they are firm, and turn chalky after a couple of days

decreased or non-existant vet bills (your dogs are healthier!)

less cost for dog food - commercial dog foods are ludicriously expensive

mirrors what a dog would be getting in the wild - and certainly even the modern day dog has a digestive tract exactly the same as a wolf

puppies develop at a more appropriate rate - and quick growth spurts are avoided. A GOOD breeder will want to stop fast growth in any pup.
the ripping and chewing involved in eating raw meaty bones develops the jaw, neck, and shoulder muscles of the dog. Commercial dog foods will never assist in this important muscle development.

People who have switched their dogs to a raw diet from commercial dog foods have found the following:


dogs who were previously un-energetic, and sluggish become completely new dogs once the raw diet feeding begins

allergies their dogs previously had on commercial foods, disappear once they start with the raw diet

arthritis has significantly reduced or disappeared in some dogs switched to raw

better weight control

no more doggy odour!

their dogs are living longer on a raw diet than what their other dogs previously had survived on commercial dog foods

that their bitches managed their pregnancies better

better weight and survival figures in puppies

Click here to read some more detailed true stories.


Ok, there is bacteria everywhere. Dogs have an amazing immunity system specifically designed to eat all manner of bacteria. And a healthy raw fed fed dog manages those bacteria without a problem.

E-coli, salmonella, etc are found on raw chicken, but those nasties are also found in your fridge, in your sink, on your floor, in your backyard, in your car, on the footpath, down at the park, and perhaps in your bed! Interestingly, the only cases I have heard of dogs dying from e-coli or salmonella, were dogs fed commercial dog foods.

The most important thing is to wash your hands thoroughly after feeding your dogs, and even after cutting up meat for your own meals. Our digestive systems are not quite as robust as our dogs, so we must protect ourselves.

I use a spray bottle containg white vinegar which I spray about when I need some disinfecting.

 

I try to avoid face licks as much as possible. She occassionally eats cat poop and licks her but so I'm sure her mouth is'nt the cleaniest as is. Recently on another forum there was a woman who thought she got salmonella from her cat rubbing its face on hers after it ate raw. She does'nt know for sure it was caused by her cat but thats why I asked.
Thanks for the advice you've made some good points.

 

"Scientists don't know the whole story. They don't know everything about the trace elements that are present in real food. They don't know what EXACTLY a dog or a human or a horse needs to be healthy. Why do you suppose the articles on nutrition change yearly or even monthly - they say this is good....and then they change their minds and say it is bad. How many "food pyramids" have we gone through in the last few years? Why do they "daily recommendations" change all the time? Because scientists don't know."

The gist of this paragraph is pretty much true, and is one of the points I am trying to make on this topic. Scientists don't know exactly..... and WE don't know exactly. So to say, for example, with authority, that one kind of oil is better than another, or make certain other definitive statements when there are many experts who disagree and can, with eloquence, explain why...... I feel this is a disservice to many people.

I'm sure Billinghurst would consider himself a 'scientist' in the sense that he has proposed a theory and has presented evidence that he feels strengthens his theory (doing 'science' is of course much more complex than this, but I'll leave it here for the sake of simplicity). So if you want to lump all scientists together and say that they don't know...then we have to say the same for ALL people doing this research, no?

I have no problem with hearing things like, "I believe such and such is best for my dog because....". What I object to are some of the blatant statements I hear concerning what one believes to be the truth-- presented as hard cold fact; no ifs, ands, or buts. Especially when there are so many other experts who disagree, and can clearly state why.

 

id imagine there can be. when i switched to homemade food i bagged all of kumas old food up. recently i took it down from the shelf to find all this grotty foul oil had seeped out of the biscuit and onto the bottom of the bag and shelf. it wasnt like normal oil. it was all horrible smelling, slightly brown slime. imagine the nasties in that!