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For the betterment of the breed

Discussion in 'Dogs - all breeds / types' started by elizavixen, Apr 18, 2004.

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  1. elizavixen

    elizavixen New Member

    From day 1 I have been on this board, I have seen a lot of posts that say "good breeders only breed for the betterment of the breed". I have been thinking a lot about this statement after reading a few recent posts. What exactly does this statement mean, for the betterment of the breed?

    Breeders say that the dogs should be of show quality and conform with AKC standards. Are the AKC standards really what defines an ideal dog? If I am not mistaken, there have been several breeds that have been ruined because breeders have been so intent on breeding dogs up to the exact AKC standards. I think it is the bull terrier or bull something. (no pun intended). A lot of dogs in the show ring today look nothing like what they were supposed to. They may be champions but I think it is a far cry to say they are the best of their breed. For a lot of the working breed, those "champions" can't even do what they were bred for.

    My point being, I think the excuse "I am doing it for the betterment of the breed" is a farce. It is a blanket excuse to hide whatever underlying reasons the breeder may have. Whether those be wanting a champion in the ring (again, is this really the best thing?), just wanting a puppy, or the obvious $$$, or whatever other reason they have. I think barring a few, and I mean a very few breedings, I do not feel that the majority of good breeders are really doing such "for the betterment of the breed".

    A lot of posters on this board, breeders to be exact, chastize other posters who want to breed because they feel they know more about breeding. Well, of course if you want to breed you should know everything there is to know, but just because you do, doesn't mean you should still breed. Anyone can read a book and learn the stuff. What is harder to learn is just exactly what would better the breed.

    Wouldn't it better the breed to stop bringing puppies, albeit purebred puppies, into the world when there are so many who lack homes? I can understand breeding rare dogs. But German Shepherds, Dobermans, pit bulls, etc. Are there not enough of these dogs in the shelters to deter "breeders" from bringing more into the world?

    So you find "good homes" for the dogs. I'm glad they appear to be "good homes" now but can you really predict the future? A lot of the dogs in shelters came from "good homes" and from "reputable breeders".

    And this talk of mandatory/early spay/neuter. If the puppies aren't fit to be bred, then do you really think the parent's are? Also, why can't someone buying a puppy breed them? You certainly find nothing wrong with it. What makes it OK for one person to breed a dog but not for another? Why, as a "reputable breeder" would you want to bring puppies into the world who have no other purpose than to just exist? If a family wants a spayed/neutered dog, why not show them to a shelter? Why bring more into the world? I think in this case, many breeders need to heed their own advice and get their own dogs neutered/spayed.

    Another reason I have heard for breeding a dog is for continuity of the breed. Well, for most breeds, I hardly think they are going extinct. But, fine, I can understand one breeding. However, breeding your dogs every heat cycle or every other heat cycle, well, that's just not done for the continuity of the breed.

    I don't know what my point is exactly in this post. I just get irritated when the breeder posters on this board get onto other posters about breeding. They say "well I breed for the betterment of the breed". Nice excuse, now tell me why you really do it. I think the only posters who have a right to call out potential breeders/current breeders, are those who have decided not to breed.
  2. Mary_NH

    Mary_NH New Member

    I have never bred any animal so I may be talking out my ear hear (did that on purpose)....I think what breeders try to avoid is someone buying one of their puppies and considering it an investment rather than a pet. Buy a puppy and then find another of that breed anywhere and start having puppies.

    I know more cat breeders than I do breeders of dogs - I know of one woman whose Siamese has 2 litters/year if she can't sell all of the kittens (she does not check references at all - show me the money kinda thing) she will sell the remaining kittens to a pet store. If you were a breeder of anything would you want this woman to have one of your puppies or kittens?

    Another person I know bought 2 Siberian Husky puppies - brother and sister. Now both of the puppies would have been fine bred to an unrelated Husky...but she bought, and bred them, just to breed and sell aka BYBer. The puppies carried some gene (this happened years ago and was explained to me but I don't remember the details) that their shared offspring - every puppy in the litter - ended up having some major intestinal defect. Each puppy either died or had to be PTS. I know a man that bought 2 of the puppies....the sad part was the health problems didn't show up until the puppies were about 6 months old. Just long enough for everyone to fall in love with their new pets only to either have them either die or need to be PTS. And these were gorgeous specimens of Siberians. The man that had the 2 puppies contacted the state, the "breeder" had to reimburse all medical bills to the owners of the puppies and the female was determined to be the carrier of the gene and she was supposed to spay her. Rather than spend money on these dogs (remember they were supposed to earn money for her rather than her spend money on them) she sold both dogs (to different people)

    Now if she'd taken the time to test these dogs she probably would have found out they shouldn't have made puppies together...but no that would have cost her money. Would you want this kind of person buying your puppies or kittens?

    The betterment of the breed - keeping clean lines. Not letting your male and/or female breed with every available dog out there. Then it becomes all about money rather than the love of the breed.

    I know a breeder of Cairn Terriers....she has in the contract purchasers of her puppies have to sign stating if you can no longer keep the dog it must go back to her. One of her dog's owners died and he left the dog in his will to his son. This woman found out and attempted to get the dog back. The son loved the dog and was a great owner for it (these words all came from the breeder). She took the son to court and won the dog back. I always thought that was rather mean of her since the dog went to someone it knew and was cared for - the son even offered to buy the dog but she made the contract stick as a matter of principle.
  3. kyles101

    kyles101 New Member

    ok this is going to be long. lets start from the beginning...

    *good breeders dont just breed their dogs to a standard based on looks. they breed them the best medical standard.

    *the akc hasnt ruined anything. the constant changing of some breeds means the akc has had to change their standards otherwise they are completely out of tune with whats going on. you are not looking deeper into the situation if you accuse one particular thing of ruining a breed.

    *why do working breeds have to do what they suppose to do? as said in a previous post, being up to standard usually means a dog can do what its suppose to do anyway. lets all go send our dogs out to kill wildlife!

    *betterment for the breed isnt an excuse. its the truth. these breeders could easily produce crappy dogs but they arent! maybe the breeders here should put their thoughts up.

    *the breeders here have every right to question people about possible breeding. and if you know EVERYTHING about breeding why cant you breed? who are you to say that a particular person who has dedicated most of their life to their pets, has just bought a top dog and has plans to breed it, has studied breeding and has a good relationship with the breeder of their dog, cant breed?

    *so what youre saying is no one should have purebred dogs from responsible breeders? in particular dobies, sheperds and pit bills. i guess i should tell my friend who has your average golden retriever to hand the dog back eh?

    *purebreds can go to bad homes. shelters can go to bad homes. why are you comparing the 2? they both have equal chances of ending up somewhere bad. ever thought about shelter animals ending back up in the shelter? obviously not.

    *'If the puppies aren't fit to be bred, then do you really think the parent's are?' thats pretty funny. i was born with cystic fibrosis and hit with the ugly stick. guess my parents werent fit to breed. guess they werent fit to exist at all!

    *if breeders bring puppies into this world just to exist, then why were you brought into this world? guess we should all self destruct cause we are only existing.

    *good breeders dont breed their dog on every cycle. do your homework.

    *im sure the breeders will answer your questions as to why they really breed. and if anyone gets short with you dont be suprised. you arent insulting bad breeders here, you are insulting good ones. good ones that frequent this board!

    *im not a breeder, i do not wish to become a breeder anytime soon, i do not have anything to do with dog breeders, i also believe all shelter/rescue dogs should have a chance and i STILL think your post is ridiculous!!

    well theres my 2 cents worth. your statement is the most craziest ive ever seen on here. well, ive actually seen crazier but these are from uneducated people. YOU should know better. i dont know if something has happened to make you so bitter about repsonsible breeding, but shesh, take a look at what youve just typed. its so uh, peta-ish. sorry for being un-pc with that phrase but its true.
  4. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    I was fixing to start out on a LONG post and Kyle, you could not have done a better job. Bravo! You hit the nail on the head. Only thing Id really like to add is education is important when making a statement like that. People need to do research before stereotyping a whole group of people. Some people shouldnt be allowed to breed. We dont need reproducing of these type of thoughts right?

    You cannot say that show dogs are not good specimans of the breeds because they cannot perform the duties they were born to do. Well lets see, take that statment and THINK about it. So you prefer a Pit Bull in the pit fighting, instead of the ring? Breeders strive to produce the most all around dog. They would like the dog to be ABLE (ABLE being the key word) to do what they were bred to do but in some circumstances its not possible. They are BETTERING the breed so to speak by ensuring the breeds quality in the future. If they stopped breeding, then bad breeders would breed negative things into the breed which would in the end, be the end of the breed as we know it. These reputable breeders ENSURE that years down the line, there will be a good sound stable quality of dogs out there and not inbred, genetically messed up dogs. You can blame someone for HELPING the breeds. Put blame where it is due, on mills and byb's.

    Good breeders are LUCKY to get a few good show potential and correct pups from a CHAMPION Sired litter much less when 2 dogs are of average conformation. Spay/Neuter contracts ENSURE that pet quality dogs are unable to produce to make more PET QUALITY dogs.

    I can find HUNDRED of things wrong with that! What makes it ok for one person to breed than another is knowledge, intellectual thinking, common sense, EXTENSIVE researching and dedication to a breed, determination to produce a PERFECT dog. I mean I could write ALL day about that statement you made. REPUTABLE breeders arent producing pups to just EXIST. Pet quality dogs should be spayed and neutered as to not produce more average dogs. Reputable breeders hope that their pups title, excel in the field, working world. They do not want their pups to JUST EXIST. That is not the goal of a reputable breeder.

    I cant even begin to answer this post in the way I want to. This is a monitered board. Kyle posted VERY well and I just want to back up his post 100000000%

    Kim PS Some ppl just make me MAD!!
  5. elizavixen

    elizavixen New Member

    The breeds have been changing because of the selective breeding done by "reputable breeders" so as to perform better in the show ring.

    Are you serious? You honestly do not see the importance of a herding dog being able to herd? The AKC standards are built around what physical characteristics give the dog an advantage in their respective function. If a herding dog can't herd, then obviously those standards are not accurate and something is wrong there.

    That wasn't my point. My point is, why bring more dogs into the world when there are so many who already don't have homes. If they go into good homes, they are taking away homes from shelter animals. If they don't then they are just filling up shelters. Why keep adding to the problem?

    or every other cycle. I know good breeders don't do this. Good breeders only breed their dogs once, maybe twice. Not every year, or every other year. And by the way, as far as doing my homework, I got this from another post on this board of someone whose dog has accidentally mated with an unproven male so they say, "no worry, we'll breed her again next cycle to the good male". In the same post they also claim to be a reputable breeder. Just for your information.

    Medical standards and the AKC standards are two very different things. That is my entire point. your dog can conform to the akc standards and be an AKC Champion and be a medical mess. I have seen many on this board say, "well, my dog's a champion so they can breed". umm..no.

    First, there is no reason to insult me. Second, I am not bitter. I just think there are a lot of hypocrites out there, some on this board. They say they are responsible breeders, but in reality, they are not.

    I am not trying to attack breeders on this board. I do not know any of them so that is not my place (unlike how you seem to know me enough to attack me).

    I think it all has to do with how you define "betterment of the breed". Just because your dog may be a champion, or medically excellent, or both! doesn't mean you should pop out dogs every year or every other year. The fact is that there are a lot of beautiful, healthy dogs in shelters that were put there because "reputable breeders" put them there. There are plenty of dogs in this world so I think that to be purposefully adding to the population is irresponsible. I also don't think you can define "bettering" the breed as just breeding two excellent dogs repeatedly. That is not "bettering" anything, that is continuing something.

    If you disagree with me then that is fine. I'm not saying all breeders are bad, I'm not saying they are all good. However, I think that just because you may do something in the best possible way (breeding two healhty, AKC champions by very knowledgeable breeders) doesn't make it responsible or mean that it should be done.

    I just think it is something that should be thought about. I put this up here for discussion, not as an insult or as an attack to anybody.
  6. catrastrophe

    catrastrophe New Member

    Just wanted to make a note, the dog that bred with an unproven male WILL NOT be bred on her next cycle, and I never said she would be. She will be bred to him next year, probably next fall. If you know anything about dogs, then you know how many cycles that is. I agree with most of what Kim had to say. If everyone stopped breeding because there are shelter dogs, then pretty soon all there would be were shelter dogs, no purebreds. No dogs with known temperments and genetic backgrounds. That is a peta-ish attitude. We sell our pups with early spay neuter because we want them to be PETS. Not another pay check for their owners.
  7. elizavixen

    elizavixen New Member

    I never said no one should breed. I do feel that the vast majority of those who do however, shouldn't. I also do not feel that the vast majority of breeders have any right to criticize other people who want to breed because of the way they do it; to me, they are all the same.

    I actually said every other heat cycle. congrats for waiting for a few months more, that really makes a ton of difference.

    but another pay check for you? why not just make your dogs PETS? Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that you are doing the spay/neuter thing but I really don't understand why you don't do it yourself?

    But my question is, which was the entire point of the post (had you all not been so defensive maybe you would have gotten that), how exactly are you bettering the breed?

    Let's see. The first time you tried you screwed up. Maybe in the next few tries you'll get it right? I hope so. but again, how is that bettering the breed?

    Again, this was meant as a discussion, not an attack. If you see it as an attack, please don't respond because you are missing the entire point. If you want to insult me, just PM me and I'll be more than happy to respond. If you have a valid point you would like to discuss, then let's discuss. Just please, get off the defenses, that was not the point of the post.
  8. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    I agree that there are too many breeders, good and bad in the world. I agree that who determines whose good and who isnt. Its hard to know that with so many breeders around. The point is, if there were NO good reputable breeders then the breeds quality would die out leaving unhealthy, poor specimans of the breeds. Its hard to see all the bad breeders out there it really is. Deep down I know what you are getting at with your post. When you see so many dogs in shelters etc it makes one want to ask why breed at all but that is a simple question that has a simple answer. If everyone stopped breeding all together these animals would become extinct. We can only hope reputable breeders will continue and wish there is some way to eliminate the bad breeders. I had this SPAY/NEUTER ALL method of thinking tobegin with as well. The truth IS there much be titled dogs of each breed to ensure the breeds future and health. I do not agree that catrastrophe dog should have had her litter, I agree that I would definatly not breed to the studs owners dog again because they are DEFINATLY not reputaable. My opinion on the subject was clearly stated and not surag coated by any means but we cannot go all petaish here and start to question all breedings. Catrastrophe has taken all this advice hopefully and think about alot of things before breeding any dog ever. It is GOOD that she has been responsible enough to make sure the pups resulting from an accidental breeding will never have to worry about the same problem. That is being responsible person. As far as breeding, I do not know catrastrophes history etc with breeding and researching the topic but you cannot STOMP your opinion into someones head. You have to provide knowledge, and opinions, and facts, and stastics and hope the make the right decision. I agree that just becuase a dog is registered and show quality it does not mean they should be bred. Breeding should be only done by the extremely profession and intellegent. Breeding should ONLY take place between 2 titled dogs, with a LONG line of great health, who is old enough, and who compliment each other physically. The type of breeding will provide a very healthy, good quality litter which will probably be shown, title, and maybe one day be qualified to be a breeder but not ALWAYS the situation. Reputable breeders WILL make sure any dog not FIT to be bred WONT BE.

  9. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    Bettering the breed does not mean breeding 2 registered dogs, that look good together. BETTERING means just that. When a reputable breeder breeds 2 dogs together that will produce healthier, sounder, correct puppies. When you breed a genius and the healthiest person in the world together results will more than likely be a VERY intellegent, healthy person. Same being in dog world. You breed 2 specimans of dogs that will INCREASE the quality of the breed in general. That is BETTERING the breed. I agree that there are alot od hypocrits out there and its VERY hard to determine who is doing it for the right reasons and who isnt. If you pay attention, be patient, do your research and learn you will more than likely be able to tell who is right and wrong. Its common sense most of the time. Reputable breeders pups almost NEVER end up in shelters by the way. They would have contracts in place that ensure if the dog cannot remain in its original home, it will be sent BACK TO the breeder where it can be placed in another proper home. Most breeders who have dogs in shelters and dont even care are not REPUTABLE breeders plain and simple. If I was a breeder I would not want any pup I produce being sold, given to, sent away to anyone other than WHO I placed the puppy with. If they could not keep them they come back to me. Thats the way it works with my rescues as well. this is to ensure these dogs DO NOT end up on the streets, or in shelters. Thats called being responsible. The person with the pups on the other thread did not make the best judgement when going ahead with the litter. I agree that I would not breed this dog again ever and have her spayed asap. I have seen no proof that this dog SHOULD be bred ever BUT you cannot beat your opinions into someone. You can give them information, tons of advice, links to research, and facts and hope they do the right thing. Degrading someone is NOT the answer. People will always do what THEY want in the end. I just hope that my words reach someone before they make a decision that is so risky. I hope you research things before you make such a biast statement again. Ignorance is the reason behind most negative things in the world today. Educate yourself and make a decision about things. It will broaden your thinking and help you understand things you dont know about. I agree with you for the most part. I just wish people would RETHINK what they are going to post to make sure they are clear on what they are preaching about. If not you are surely going to offend the wrong people.

    Thanks, Kim
  10. catrastrophe

    catrastrophe New Member

    Everyone should have their own opinion. Why drag me into your battle?
  11. kyles101

    kyles101 New Member

    oh so now weve changed out minsd and are not blaming the akc.
    guess i should take my dog to the zoo and get her to attack one of the bears? im a bad owner because my dog doesnt have to protect me from bears lol!
    why didn you type this down instead of implying purebreds go to bad homes?
    have i called you a name? no. i really do think you a bitter about breeding. you didnt get your dog from a cabbage patch you know, someone, whether good or not, bred them! the only person insulting anyone here is you. if i put years into breeding good quality dogs and did all the right things, id be pretty pissed to find someone saying that my dogs are worthless and that im a dodgy breeder. you also keep implying that everyone with a top dog pops out babies. thats really weird.

    p.s kim, my name is kylie and im a girl teehee! :D thanks for supporting me.
  12. elizavixen

    elizavixen New Member

    I do not have any issue with reputable breeders breeding two exceptional purebred dogs. I just think that the definition of a reputable, responsible breeder is narrower or should be narrower than most people's definition.

    I agree that keeping clean lines is a good thing. I do however see a limit to how many dogs should be purposefully brought into the world, seeing as there is already such a gross overpopulation. Therefore, I think there is more to the "betterment of the breed" than just keeping clean lines.

    I just think there should be more emphasis placed on bettering those dogs who are already here, rather than those in the future. I'm not trying to take this to extremes or peta-ish standards (whatever that means). I think we all know that extremes on either side are bad so let's analyze this in a more moderate environment.

    Kylie - I'm not going to argue with you on every minute detail. I think you've gotten my point. If you can't see the big picture, please stop replying to this post. This is a discussion, not an argument, so let's act like adults or move on.
  13. kyles101

    kyles101 New Member

    i think you do have an issue. its quite obvious by looking at what youve typed. now youre taking half of it back and contradicting yourself. this thread is the most dumbest ive seen ever so i will leave it up to others to reply now.
  14. lil96

    lil96 New Member

    Everyone Just Calm down

    ATTN Disclaimer: By posting this I do not wish to offend anyone, I would just like to make a few valid(I think) points.
    I don'T know where to start! Ok I am not saying responsible(or even irresponisible) breeding is bad. But ok think about these things: My dog is so smart, beautiful, he herds well, catches duck, pulls a cart and has a great temperment so is my neighbors dog, so maybe if we breed them the can become super mutt! Why are "champion" dogs champions? and my dog is a "pet quality" because I didn'T know his parents? Does that make sense what I am asking, I understand that those dogs follow AKC crap and you can trace your dogs ancestors further back then your won family stuff, but why does that make your dog a champ and mine only "pet quality" I feel chances are my dog is less inbred than a champion bloodline anything and that is what makes him wonderful. Just because you breed dogs with like traits to get to that trait doesn'T mean you get it.
    Has anyone thought of the effects of inbreeding, and I know none of you inbreed your dog, but how do you think it got to have those special characteristics? How did a Dalmation got its spot, it is a genetic defect bred into them until all had it, no wonder there are so mind blind or deaf ones. And chihuahuas how are they so small,hmm the same inbreeding procedure?
    Back around the turn of the century in America in the south, there was this breeding thing where only the best and brightest and prettiest were allowed to be in it (I can'T remember the name of this competition)But those families of "lesser breeeding" had to be desexed. Except this wasn't a dog thing this was a people thing!
    I don't see the point in showing your dog let your dog run around and herd all the time, if you have a herding dog or do what dogs enjoy(although find something for pit bulls to do)Dogs can show their love a beauty in places other then the ring. Dogs are great and I know everyone loves their dogs and would do anything for them. Whether your dog is a companion, a servant, or a trophy you shouldn't breed them on purpose, no matter how great they are. If your champion poodle happens to be in the with someones champion whatever type dog(as long as he isn'T huge)why not let them breed it could be very beautiful and they are both champs! Your dogs natural instinct tells them who they should or shouldn't breed with.
    Sorry I am rambling and getting of the point. But ok (reminder don'T take offense) There is no need to breed purebreds together, we aren'T running out of any dog soon and if we are it is part of natural selection, maybe the earth doesn'T need that type dog anymore, or God is trying to tell you something. Many dogs need homes, so how about next someone is thinking of breeding go to the local pound/shelter/newspaper/street where ever and pick 6 (or the # of puppies your dog normally would have) of the best looking and give those away. Maybe these dogs won'T be "perfect" but they are still "pet quality" and will make someone smile. Please if you love dogs do it this way!
  15. Auspetian

    Auspetian Administrator Staff Member

    Thank you !

    And this concludes our little (literally) discussion :? .

    That's all folks. This thread is now closed. =P~
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