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Possible to TRAIN OUT/Re-program a Pit Bulls animal agressio

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by Shady_Babygurl, Apr 1, 2004.



  1. Sara

    Sara New Member

    *&^$#@!&

    WTF!!!

    Read all those message boards and tell me where I argued with you on it??? You were argueing your point which...was taken by me as a point that was tooooo generalized and was honestly a dangerous statement and point to make on a public forum where anit pit people can go and often do go...

    How long have you been on that message board Kim??? Lets get down to the nitty gritty and you figure out who's the first one to say that dogs are animals and Pits are Pits.... You are obviously tooo caught up in your being right that you are missing my point completely... Speaking generally about APBT's with people who don't know about them and for people who are new owners is detrimental!!! THat's all there is to it and that was my MAIN point this whole time... GET A GRIP KIM and quit reading between the lines and through a bunch of anger over petty ***MODERATOR EDIT FOR LANGUAGE***

    WE AREN'T IN DISAGREEMENT ON THIS AND APPARENTLY NEVER WERE. There are different schools of thought here and I'm coming from a working background where you are coming from an...I'm right background... humble yourself for a minute and think about what the arguement was and what you said... I'm sorry you were so hasty to remark and disagree with me that you were general and we took you for saying that APBT's were/are unpredictable...I'm sorry that every time you argued your point you didn't clarify what EXACLTY your point was... THIS IS REDICULOUS to keep going on about who said what first... The Simple point is that in several posts on a public message board you stated AS FACT your opinions that made it sound as though APBT's were unpredictable and that even OB couldn't control them...you did so because of an arguement that you got involved in and reacted to in an heated and emotional way... I'M SORRY IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT...BUT A FEW PEOPLE CAN. I'M ALSO SORRY THAT YOU CAN'T ADMIT THAT YOU POSTED GENERALIZED STATEMENTS AND NEVER SPECIFIED WHAT YOUR AGRUEMENT WAS. I never changed my position on where I stood NOT ONCE so it's not me who's agreeing with you....it's you who started stating your opinions in a less general manner!

    On that note...

    True_Pits... Here's an interresting point of view about Weak nerves and gamedogs and dogmen... I figured you'd find it interresting what the other guy thinks...

    ""I'm inclined to think that it's more likely that the dogs simply have not been worked, selected and bred for protection work."
    I think you're right and that's the point. Dogmen will breed dogs with weak nerves because of their ability to win in the pit. We wouldn't breed them because they lack characteristics that are essential to a true working dog. A dogman once told me it's easier to breed match quality dogs than it is to breed bulldogs that excel at PP. Many famous "game bred" dogs were one dimensional."

    Hmmm interresting when you talk nerves in terms of game dogs as opposed to working dogs (pp feild)

    Have a great weekend!

    AND Kim... You're not the only one who knows what they are talking about...take a chill pill and maybe take some time out with your dogs...don't get sooooo huffy when you finally came out of the dark and saw the trees instead of the forest.... Check out my posts on the other board... You really need to get your anger in check... I NEVER STATED THAT APBT'S COULD BE TRAINED TO BE NON-DOG/ANIMAL AGGRESSIVE WITHOUT SUPERVISION AND COULD BE TRUSTED THE SAME WAY... I'VE NEVER STATED THAT IN ALL OF MY TIME AS AN APBT OWNER AND I'VE ONLY EVER STATED THE OPPOSITE THE ENTIRE 2 YEARS I'VE BEEN POSTING ON THAT BOARD...

    Sara
     
  2. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    whateva

    So youre from working background since you have recently got a boerboel SP? that is pulling. So that makes you a qualified working dog person huh? LLOL I have know several REAL dog men in my lifetime, and I was kin to a couple RIP dog men. I have grown up with true Pit Bulls and working Pit Bulls. Although I am not working my dogs right now, Id like toget Foolish into pulling. Youre pulling with a NON Pit Bull breed but you act as though you are an expert in working Pit Bulls. LOL I am not heated, just thought it was funny you posted, and in EXACT words, what I posted on the other site. You NEVER said any of that on the other board. I was clear when I typed it, but you said I wasnt, now you type it and its so qualified? lol Im done arguing with you on this issue. You question my knowledge of Pits, I dont care, you question my opinions, I dont care, you made insults about my intellegence, lol I dont care, but I DID say these things and I thought I was pretty clear. Im not one to make light of things but you posted the EXACT thing I did, and you have NEVER posted it before. I just thought that was funny. I once owned a 6xw Chinaman dog named Voodoo, he was a game dog. I have been raised with game dogs. Im not debating what you know, so dont debate what I know. Like I said A THOUSAND times before, we can agree to disagree on some things. That is what makes American so great! lol You are the one needing to chill, you always have to get the last post in dont you? I think it was you that had your dog bite someone or TRY to at the last pull right? lolol Kinda funny that you argue that training can control it but you couldnt control your own dog. lol True Pit, I think true game dogs are harder to produce that working dogs, because all Pit Bulls have prey drive, and can excel in some working sport, not all dogs are suited for being a game dog. Its a difference in game and prey drive, and I think that game dogs are alot harder to produce lately than working dogs. JUST MY OPINION again lolol not a fact......Kim
     
  3. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    LOL LOL haha. The whole thing is kind of irrelevent easier to produce match dogs than PP dogs...lol hmmm? Well they are bred for the pit not for PP work. Who cares how they fair at bite work,, man stopping, SCH, ect. I wonder if its easier to produce Labs for water retrieval rather than PP? People need to leave the PP to the dogs bred for it. I don't see how they make the assumptions game dogs have weak nerves? They have good discretion and will use it, if met with a serious confrontation wouldnt back down. Like the dogs that are said to have "weak nerves" many Rotts and the American bred GSD. They get confused, nervious, ect. The APBT has no fear of death or self preservation and will faithfully kill or be killed in an attempt to protect its owner. On the same note this dog will have never shown any previous aggression/protection and would probably do lousy at PP. APBT don't think the idea of biting a person is a good one. They also lack something that allows these other breeds to excell, defense drive. This is another reason why it is very hard to MAKE them people aggressive when people want a mean guard/protection dog. They are very super friendly in the first place and not having defense drive really doesn't help. All dogs probably have some amount somewhere, but it takes a lot of agitation and down right abuse to usually get a Pit Bull like this. But even the so called "pros" use agitation which has caused the ruining of some dogs, laws suits, or the reason that they turn out unpredictable when it should be trained dogs would be less likely to bite. But when they prey on the dogs defense drive and agitate it they make it untrustworthy not a stable intellegent dog able to discern the proper situation or act on command including both attack and out. I know of dogs however APBTs who were just like any other, until the day their owner was in a bad situation, then the dogs received gun shot wounds, stabbings but never considered stopping, some lost their lives some recovered. That is all I care about being alive, not some sport or training that is needless to my breed. However there are gamebred dogs being used in PP and doing very well at it. Some APBT are also SCH titled. Which involves PP. On another board I'm a member of their is an individual thinking about breeding his bitch (for PP prospects) to a double bred Barracuda dog(sired by may day), he is a dog heavily used in PP, he is gamebred. I've heard in other May Day dogs being used in PP also and J' Long has them as well. I find that they are very dominant no non-sense dogs with a level of defense drive. Another I have seen is many OFRN dogs doing well in PP, but most OFRN are not gamebred. But if gamebred dogs have weak nerves what to the other Pit Bulls have? There are even some yellow dogs having defense drive. You can go on a yard and the dogs act aggressive even if they would never bite you they are giving the impression of aggression and know you don't belong there. Take a dog like that and give it the right training and you will have a grade A PP dog. I trust my gamebreds a lot more, my aggressive female I spoke of ealier she is also protective she ears a sound or the tree scrapes the window she her ears will perk and she will give a menacing growl. Sometimes she will lay over top of me do that and then stay alert for the longest time. I hope that she would protect me, but I also wonder if this is just a bluff. She's not gamebred, would she have the nerves and temp to stand up to a serious confrontation, not just scare away a would be intruder but some one serious or a maniac. I hope so and think she most likely would, but there is still that doubt in my mind.

    I don't care about match quality dogs, I care about true bulldogs, real game dogs. It is very deficult to breed for deep gameness. Breeding good match dogs isn't breeding for gameness, its breeding for winners, no doubt some people do this. Especially with hard biters, the dog is always a winner. It had short rolls, a would have been test it stopped in short order and match opponents it train wrecked! Is it game? Well thats anyones guess, dogs like these have been proven NOT game once they met a deep game dog who would hang with them and they couldn't take it, they were not game just a detroyer so they finally curred, yes they are a winner a hard biting curr who caused other dogs to curr or be picked up b/c of injury. It doesn't take much to win when the dog destroys like that, but can he scratch back beaten wasted? Some do once they meet that dog, many don't. What do you take the CH who is a hard biter or the proven deep game dog who has never been matched? The ROM dog bred many times or the dog bred very few with a good percentage of winners and some too young to tell, the pit ACE who hasn't produced anything or the not so tallented dog that has produced good ones. Some people breed for winners, a titled doesn't mean a dog is game. Some people breed for pretty papers. Not for me.

    I know it was just a quote from somewhere but this is how I see it.

    Something I think is a little strange is that gamedogs do have prey drive, sometimes in high amounts, but they still are calm around other dogs and won't attack small dogs. its weird, like they know. They seem to have keen intellegence and sense. it is weird because I was walking a female and she went nuts of a dead squirell!! The animal was dead but she wanted it, she was on lead at the time and I walked on and she stayed trying to get it on her back legs by then and I was pulling on the lead while she was walking backwards on her hind legs...a funny site. Then I told her to come on wasn't so funny at the time.

    Shady you say you know dogmen, are related to some, have been around the dogs and have knowledge. I'm not trying to doubt you on this, but I do have a question. Ealier you said.

    You don't know a lot about gamelines, but now you seem to be saying you do know a lot about that and have other knowledge. Those are not even gamelines. I can only think a very few number of gamedogs that have been recognized to come from those said lines. He is gamebred and his father was a pit CH but usually dogs of those lines are bred for looks rather than gameness.
     
  4. Jas

    Jas New Member

    ****To Shady Baby and Sara,

    Please take this continuous and endless bickering back to your other board where it came from. It serves no purpose and we don't want it here. Enough is enough.

    I've already had to edit posts in this thread for cursing and will mention again that cursing in this forum is NOT allowed. That includes ALL foul language. ******Future posts of the sort will be removed*******

    Thanks
    Moderator
     
  5. Sara

    Sara New Member

    PP work and Pit Bulls

    "Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper. - Robert Frost"

    I do hear you moderator and I have to point out that I'm not the one that brought the arguement here. I stated my point and it has been made...

    True_Pits... I haven't heard or seen of very many PP folks who actually work their pits in true defensive drive. What I've seen and heard is that most people work their dogs in prey drive almost exclusively and then from that point they use that prey drive that they've nurtured to make the bark and hold etc... into more of a game than serious work. Most PP APBT's don't look at it like it's protecting...they look at it more like it's a game than anything. I do see your point and that's why most PP folks insist to newbies that they find trainers who have worked extensively with bully's because between a bully breed and a shepherd breed it's like night and day. Most PP folks don't look for gamebred dogs to work with because it is VERY common for a gamedog to NOT work well... Wether it's because the dog is weak nerved when it comes to "defensive" work or not is really a moot point. Since it was discussed a bit I thought I would post that comment from a fella that works Pit Bulls in PP and Sch. I think PP folks look at a dog with weak nerves in a different way than you or gamedog folks look at it... It's sooooo different how working people look at things and how the rest of the world look at things....

    BTW when I say working I don't mean fighting... Since that activity has been illegal in this country forever I don't consider it to be true work...Shady...kim...I meant working background more in terms of a Working context...and either way...go back to the other message board and keep argueing your point...it's falling on deaf ears and I don't feel like perturbing anyone else... Email me if you seriously want to keep going on this crap...I might even email you about your attitude issues.

    Sara
     
  6. Sara

    Sara New Member

    One more thing...

    I don't curse online...so I'm not the one that needed an editing job... I don't want people here to think I'm that type of person...I'm not... This is a great board and I'm sorry that an arguement brought me here. I'd like to hang around a bit and I hope a petty arguement such as this hasn't hurt my chances at doing that. I don't curse...

    Sara
     
  7. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Preaching to the choir, its just a fun game, they weren't meant to attack people. I understand that, they lack defense drive and the protective traits of the other breeds.

    How to you substantiate this? I'm just curious to know how many gamedogs have failed at this. I'd figure most don't seek out gamedogs because the average APBT buyer doesn't. I'd could really care less because they are not bred for PP, man stopping or attack training they are bred for the box and thats all thats whats important, thats where they should be thats where they will excell. GSD & APBTs night and day, exactly my point wouldn't put a GSD in the pit would you?
     
  8. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Schools...

    Okay in PP work there are APBT people and there are the rest of the folks. Generally if a person is going to do PP work with a Pit Bull they'll know the breed beforehand and generally know it intamately...therefore...they truly would be the type of owner who has and would WANT to seek out gamebred dogs... However...gamebred dogs don't have the "man biting" in their genes so make a bad PP dog...or they're not nervy enough etc... who knows...I've actually never asked around as to WHY people choose not to seek out gamebred APBT's for PP work... One more thing about it... APBT folks who do use APBT's for PP or Sch. use them in a sporting context only...in trials etc... Not for true manstopping power... People interrested in manstoppers use bandogs plain and simple. [One of the most common lines of APBT's people point towards when asked what lines work best in PP is Boudroux (sp?)]

    There are PP people (not sporting) using bandogs and they use APBT's that excell in sport work to bring wind, health, and drive to the mastiff breeds (they lack it because of poor breeding). A common bandog mix is the APBT and the Neo...you get defense and brains from the Neo (knowing when is a good time to stop or being under control enough to out easily etc...) and the drive and tenacity from the APBT... works well to have a stable manstopping dog (truly man stopping). These folks only really care about manstopping and being able to be part of the family.

    Then you have the folks training the GSD and Mal. and those folks are both sport and true working people... Mostly sport though...

    I'm interrested in PP work and I like APBT's and that's why I'd like to get a couple of my dogs into it... HOWEVER if I truly want a dog to protect me FOR REAL I'll stick with my BB's and if I'm going to go for sport work I'd get myself a Malinois...

    APBT people are aware that their dogs are not manstoppers and in reality don't want them to be... They're just out having fun with their dogs and getting them working/playing in a different feild that's more positive than the pit...
     
  9. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Perhaps but some one breeding their line for PP is probably a more likely source of providing others with PP dogs rather than seeking out a dog bred for the pit, the same with WP most will buy from WP breeders out of WP dog(even though I have seen the GB do a lot better), many who want show dogs buy from conformation breeders, ect.

    Then there are many game dog breeders who would never sell a dog for PP. Some wont sell to homes where the dogs wont be tested in the first place. But threre aret those who will, sell to show or weight pull homes, hog catchers, but then there are even some who wont sell to weight pullers because they don't agree with that either.

    So then gamedogs do excell and are common in this field? Boudreaux bred dogs are multi faceted being used in show, hog catch, WP, ect. I didn't know of any in PP, but I'm not into the PP or ring sports either. I have seen a lot of May Day dogs(gamebred), OFRN & Eli(some GB) dogs being in used in PP.

    Yeah there is a name for that Swinford Bandog after the creator. The dogs totally failed at stopping the APBT in the box, they were supposed to be the next big thing able to defeat APBT. You have a lot of good things to say about them, you haven't noticed any negative traits in this breed?

    I'll go with the BMal for b/c I really like the breed and they also make good, alert guard dogs.

    Yeah, its just funny that the statement said it was easier to breed gamebred dogs that are good match quality dogs but not good PP. I found it hilarious b/c they are bred for the pit not for PP so what should they be easier to breed for? I don't see how it is more positive if it is changing the breed. I also don't understand if you say gamebreds don't do well how it can be something more positive than using them for what they are bred for? If they are probably not going to exell? If its not going to be a positive experience for the owner and dog, if it will only lead to failure its not better than the pit. Maybe using the other dogs is more positive, but then again they are not gamebred and the pit wouldn't be a positive experience, it would be cruel treament for them by an ignorant owner. So using them for what they were bred to do makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't expect some one to take their WP/PP bred dog and use it in the pit.

    Most don't view the pit as positve, but most don't understand it either or gamebred dogs for that matter. Showing your game dog in conformation is just as positive as anything and the dog is still a working dog. There is often general public at the shows and they get to see the dogs in a positive way. Not everyone understands PP or ring sports, they think the dogs are "mean" even though we know they are not and not likely to bite some one without cause, so what do you gather they believe when they see a bully breed doing this? i have heard comments that of course they are good at it b/c they are mean in the first place. or It would be easy to train a pit bull to attack, ect. Might be ignorance, but its the general publics thoughts.
     
  10. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    game line knowledge


    True Pits, I do not PERSONALLY know extensive knowledge about fighting lines etc, but I was raised up with a few dog men, and I still know a couple true dog men. I dont condone their lifestyle but I respect that they have stayed true to the original pit Bulls. My dog was going to be a potential fighter, I was actually in a bidding war for him. The other gentleman wanted him for the pit, I wanted him for a pet. Evidentally I won the bidding lol. My father knows more than I could ever expect to know about game lines. He lives a couple hours away so I dont see him often but when I said I didnt know alot about game lines I was referring to that, lines. I do know a BIT about match dogs etc, from researching I guess. I have been present to a dog fight or 2 in my lifetime but I was a child and I wasnt really paying attention. LOL Sorry if you misunderstood me.

    As far as cursing, I only posted what you called my opinions, a crock lol of you no what was YOUR words when you posted on the other board. I just wanted to see what other peoples opinions referring to the subject. I didnt think it would turn into a battle of wits. We are all HOPEFULLY very knowledgable about the breed we own. If not then we shouldnt own the breed. I just dont think working Pits in PP work is what they truly were bred for. They are not people agressive breed and to use them for that EVEN in the idea of a game is not in my opinion appropriate. When you train a dog to be agressive towards a human then you are defying the laws od nature of a Pit Bull. I say work them where they can exibit their natual extinct, such as hog hunting. Im done arguing opinions and facts. We can AGREE to DISAGREE as I have said a thousand times. PS I dont need any email regarding my attitude lolol Im a grown woman with a good head on my shoulders. I have a mother and a father if I need to be corrected lolololol....Kim
     
  11. Shady_Babygurl

    Shady_Babygurl New Member

    It's a mistake to think the fighting gene can be easily trained or loved out of these dogs, or that early socialization will guarantee the dogs will always get along with other animals. Even though PBRC does not in any way condone animal fighting, it does acknowledge the importance of understanding the special traits of the breed, and advocates education about proper and responsible Pit Bull ownership. You can have all the dog experience in the world, but it is also essential to understand the distinctive features of the type of dog you own -- in this case a dog with an important fighting background who requires extra vigilance and precautions around other pets.




    Taken directly out of this link...
    http://www.screamerspitbulls.com/pbrcletter.htm
     
  12. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Thanks for replying to my ?s, I understand what you meant now.
     
  13. Sara

    Sara New Member

    True_Pits...

    You have GREAT posts... It's funny how we can come acrossed one way on these boards and then the longer a discussion is carried on the more we learn about one another. You have some GREAT knowledge about all the feilds of the APBT...

    I know of a couple dogmen who wouldn't sell to a person who would use their dogs for PP work and if I got a dog from them the dog wouldn't be used for it nor would their offspring...I do respect that opinion and beleif and frankly it's a good beleif to have in that line of work. Most people who have been involve in PP work with APBT's do have dogs bred from lines and kennels known for turning out good PP dogs... Usually the novice person looking to do PP with an APBT wants a game dog because as a novice...it seems the gamedog would excell...novice in PP usually means the person has been involve in APBT's for quite some time... Same with WP dogs...most people really into WP used dogs for that purpose... I'm just saying that in PP discussions involving APBT the people inquiring about them and discussing them know what a gamedog entails etc...

    To clarify I'M not saying that APBT's excell in PP work... some do well and some don't. As for gamebred pits excelling in PP work...it's a toss up same with WP... ANY breed will excell at what they were bred to do... APBT's were bred for the pit and that's that... THere are tons of things these guys can do besides fighting and it's great to discuss the different temperments and drives they have... THEY're soo versitile I'm always astounded at how each subsect of the breed knows soooo much about their own section and all that jazz... It just amazes me. I'm also astounded at how well APBT's DO excell or work in other feilds like PP and WP and tracking...to me it's amazing...whether they win a ribbon or not...for the breed a dog titled in Sch. AT ALL is respectable and better than many other breeds of dog soooooo ingraned with their own type of work that they can't cross over into many others.

    I have a question though... What are you referring to when you say Bmal???

    I don't know a whole lot about the NEO xPit cross because it's not really my bag... But I do know that most BAndog people would rather not be associated with Swinford and his practice... They often times refer to him as Swineford because his goals and activities were and are very detrimental to ALL bully breeds... He's a real asset to BSL in his way of thinking and training methods etc... His goal was to have a dog that would go after ANYTHING human or animal and die fighting...nothing more...nothing less...nothing in terms of stability or having a family companion in your bandog... he was a nasty character...very bad fellow...and most followers of his practice are just as much an asset to BSL as he was... Gotta watch out there are some pretty unsavory's in PP work that can talk smooth and make themselves look as upstanding as the good ones out there...
     
  14. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    BMal is Belgian Malinois

    I know what you mean about Swinford, thats why i asked about negativity. Especially with the temperaments of some of his dogs. Not stable or well rounded dogs at all.
     
  15. Sara

    Sara New Member

    LOL

    Oh... Teeeheee...I'm used to just seeing Mal as the name... I was also wondering if you were throwing a wrench in things mentioning something like a Bully x Malinois cross or something... It's becoming quite a popular cross...I was sure you meant something else...if not...I may have had to take a moment and re-group... Can't see you being a fan of mixed breeds for ANY reason... *wink* LOL

    Most BAndog guys (reputable ones) do serious temperment testing and don't sell dogs to the public... if they did...I'd question their reputation as breeders... It's scary to see what people think it acceptable behavior and training methods....ugh...
     
  16. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Yeah there was a link posted by one of our members to a very scarey board, just about everything on there was mixed, sometimes 3 even 4 breeds. Pit Bull B Mal was one, and I think AmBull and GSD, and one that was B Mastiff/Rott X something else, there was so many bandogs and creepy mixes. These people were after money and used working ability or good guard dog crap to advertise.
     
  17. Jas

    Jas New Member

    No, but you participated, if you go back to the first post what was brought here were questions.
    Just to clarify to both of you: BOTH posts were edited for cursing, I do not care where it came from originally or who said what, it was posted here. Anyone is welcome here as long as they follow the guidelines, if not then their membership will be terminated.

    Thanks
     
  18. Sara

    Sara New Member

    With All due respect

    Moderator... I did see the edited parts and I honestly didn't remember cursing online... I really don't do it often if at all...so my bad...

    I'm not sure why you felt you needed to post that part because I apologized for the whole incident and feel that it should have been left at that... I did participate but I felt the need to clarify what exactly was being said about me... I don't feel like it's fair to get down on me for that...I was just defending myself on the issue... Sorry it got heated...etc...

    I still feel like that last post by you was...well...unecessary at best...

    I apologized and let it pass and ignored any further comment on the issue...

    The discussion went on to be more about PP dogs and turned into quite a nice conversation about lines and behavior etc... Why are you still down on me here? If you would like me to leave because of my participation in a rediculous and pointless arguement I'll be happy to oblige...if not...then can we please let it go and forget anything ever happened...it's not something I'm particularly proud of...again...the whole reason I posted in the first place was in defense of my position...and in the process of making an *** out of myself I've found another Pit Bull community I'd like to be a part of...so...can we please...just forget it???
     
  19. Jas

    Jas New Member

    For the record no one was singled out. TWO people participated. I was not able to be online much, which was why the lateness of my post. One of you dropped it another made a comment so I needed to clarify.

    Enough said on this part.



    Thank you for contributing to a reasonable discussion. Please continue. :idea:
     

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