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Puppies on the way!! Hopefully!!!

Discussion in 'Dogs - all breeds / types' started by Samsintentions, Dec 22, 2006.

  1. Samsintentions

    Samsintentions New Member

    Well guys. we've got a breeding between Vader and Byeboer and Precious and Byeboer!!! Soo with any luck we'll have puppies on the way!!!!

    I wasn't planning on breeding Vader just yet, I wanted to wait til the spring. But the stinker actually DUG under her kennel and into his. She's the sexual agressor in that one. LOL Since she was in such good shape and checked out well with the vets we decided to just go ahea and do the whole full blown thing anyway. Rayna (her previous owner) agreed she looked great (maybe a lil chubby) but in good shape, so we went for it.

    And today we had the second successful mating of Precious and Boe!!!! WOOHOO!!!!! Wish us luck! :eek:
  2. charmedagain

    charmedagain New Member

    Good luck sam hope everything goes well and you get 2 very large healthy litters.

  3. Samsintentions

    Samsintentions New Member

    I don't want too many puppies! LOL just a few would be fine with me!
  4. MyPetTherapyDog

    MyPetTherapyDog New Member

    Congratulations and Good luck to you! How exciting!
    Happy New Year to you and your pooches!
  5. hermann muenster

    hermann muenster New Member

    Sam - I don't mean to be rude, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way -- but why are you breeding??

    Your dogs are magnificent, but none of them have been shown, none of them have titles of any sort -- and after the snake bite, torn toes, broken teeth ?? Why take any more risks??

    just wondering.
  6. Samsintentions

    Samsintentions New Member

    Actually Herman,
    Precious has been shown, same as Vader, both did excellent, I plan to continue showing. They have absolutely outstanding temperaments and health scores and are great representations of the breed. Their all exellent all around dogs with outstanding bloodlines to boot. IMO The show ring is more of a beauty contest. There are some still out there made souly for the purpose of conformation and structure, but that doesnt prove squat about the dogs. They may look pretty but how they perform is more of what I'm after.

    I didn't research the breed, spend the time finding the ones that would make the best suited offspring, for nothing. Even if they all did turn out to be bad, i'd spay and neuter them and love them anyways. Their my kids of course, but I also want to be a contribution to the breed in helping to establish a decent dog. It took me 2 years to find a male who in my eyes was damn near perfect. I chose Byeboer for his correctness, size, temperament and bloodlines. I think he's an outstanding male above many others. IMO.

    All will be appraised this next year, Unfortunately we missed the last appraisal in Houston. I didn't recieve Byeboers paperwork until after the show. I do continue to train for higher things. Unfortunately as we all know, accidents happen. When anyone has multiple dogs (especially guardians, and dominant dogs) fights are going to happen. You have to fix the mistakes that are made and go on.

    Everything with this breed is new to me. Every oppertunity I get, I go to visit others with them, talk with them, share stories and techniques. I travel as much as I can (with the limited time i have considering) to see diffrent things and work with diffrent things to incorporate into my program.

    The first breeding rounds are always trial. To see what I'm producing and how well the pups will come out. I plan on using a few of the offspring as protection dogs, and shows... but for the most part, I strive mainly for home protection and farm work. The whole reason I got into the Boerboel was to keep my home and property safe. Including my animals. Which ALL of my dogs have proven to do. With the exception of Faith (the puppy, who's already showing strong guarding instincts).

    They all have been temperament tested, and I look forward to doing some PSA or Schlutzand with them.

    Broken toes, snakebites, its all part of it. Especially out in the country. The fact that mine incurred a snakebite while TRYING to save me, is all part of it and I'm very proud (yet sad that she had to go thru the pain) that they put their life on the line, yet again, to insure that their owner was safe.

    Its all part of it. I ensure you, all of my dogs have the LOVE, Respect, and care they need. Hinse as to why i plan on staying SMALL. I don't want to be a "big time breeder" not my intentions at all. But you can't prove your stock without producing and finding out just exactly what your getting. And if they turn out less than desireable, i'll cull. thats just that. A few bumps in the road, aren't going to deter me from going down that path. Sure, changes have to be made, mistakes and accidents will happen, I just ahve to do my best and keep learning, showing, and moving forward to keep only the good happening and to improve.
  7. Samsintentions

    Samsintentions New Member

    I do have to say however, that with out the help of several individuals I wouldn't have the oppertunity NOR the information and knowledge to do so. Sara is the one that introduced me to the breed when my livestock were attacked. I couldn't wait.
    Rayna has taught me the most about the breed, handling and is going to school to be a professional trainer. I assure you she wouldn't place a dog, nor reccommend breeding them if they weren't worth it.

    I hope she stays a bit longer to help with some training here at my place when she's thru! I coud definatley use the help and new methods. Not free of course.

    Also to a bunch of youhere. I appreciate the advise, suggestions and most of all some of the constructive critisism. WIthout it, I cant' see all the mistakes I make and it opens eyes and oppertunities to fix them.

    If you have any more questions. Feel free to ask. Thanks.
  8. MyPetTherapyDog

    MyPetTherapyDog New Member

    Hi Sams:
    I am glad for you. I hope your puppies turn out wonderful.
    I have high hopes for you.
    A friend of mine is interested in your breed. I have to be honest though, I don't know much about breeding.
    I don't want to sound stupid but I figured I could learn while we were on the topic of puppies and breeding of this marvelous breed of dog.
    What exactly is an SABT score? How do you rate it?
    And do you get a hip dysplasia certificate?
  9. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Precious was only shown as a puppy though but I do think she'd do well in a show ring as an adult, I hope you get her out there soon Sam. Vader has excellent conformation as well.

    I am glad you're proud of them Sam but I do think they ought to get in that show ring before you plan much more breeding with them. Showing costs money and for a title like that it's a little annoying to shell out the cash...especially for a working dog. If the dogs have proven themselves on the farm and with stock and their guarding ability and temperment I don't take issue with a breeding, take that cash and put it toward a show title Id' say :wink: ...but I'd like to see Precious proven more in a show ring too before another breeding, and Boyboer (sp?).

    The SABT uses appraisal scores and they are based solely on conformation and a bit on temperment. Hip scores don't fit into the appreisal system really which to me is a HUGE flaw in the system. At this point if your friend is looking to breeders I'd find some that went on Penn Hipp scores, NOT the South African method as their scores are lax compared to ours. Also I'd go toward a breeder who is workign to embrace the AKC registration as that club will offer more in terms of working titles and also policing of the stud books and breeding practices and most any other Boerboel Registration. It's really confusing with these rare breeds...it'll make your head spin before the end of the learning. Ugh...

  10. hermann muenster

    hermann muenster New Member

    Again, no to offend - but this was my point.

    There are lots of breeders that have long waiting lists and are getting a good buck for their litters -- because their dogs have titles!

    Utility, Draft, Companion, Conformation, Obedience, Herding -- too many to list!

    They have dogs that have excellent OFA's, PENN hips, CERFs' -- and the list of testings goes on and on too!!

    I know you have beautiful, well tempered dogs -- but what do they have that will attract responsible buyers.

    I know you even mentioned some guy down the road that is interested in a pup to guard his property --

    personally, I would never sell one of my dogs to anyone that was going to use it as a guard. There's so much more to the breed than that.

    I am a big advocate of spay and neuter -- and I am not a big supporter of breeding any dog unless it has been titled.
  11. Sara

    Sara New Member

    Hernann, the true utility of the Boerboel breed is in it's use as a farm guardian against human and animal intruder. Truly their main reason for being on the planet is to guard it's property and owner. They worked stock too but usually they were protecting their owners from angry stock, not much more than that. I would not sell a Boerboel to a person who did not want SOME form of protection and had some experience in that field...to sell a Boerboel to a pet home, in my opinion, would be VERY irresponsible.

    The problem with Boerboels and working titles is that their work is pretty specific. They are not prey driven by nature and to work them like you do a Schutzund dog or the like is to take away their natural instinct in their way of guarding, it's all fine and Dandy to have your dog title in any of the protection sports but for a truly useful title on a boerboel that would showcase it's natural traits would be a huge undertaking similar to that the Germans took over when they came up with Schutzund for their breed the GSD. What I'd imagine would be included in an ideal test for Boerboels would be working some feral cattle while an owner or whatever is taking care of their babies...a herd of Angry cows kept at bay by a barking Boerboel or two would be pretty correct in what they are meant to do. Also to find a test situation in which the dog was used as a sentry would be another way of testing. Unfortunately the only way that can be found is by using Military trainers to asses your dogs in their training ideals where they use dogs for this purpose... Living and working on a farm would also be, to me, a wonderful form of testing for a boerboel...if you could title that...I'd be ALL over it.

    Honestly, the reason I have taken a break and may not even get back into the breeding of the Boerboel is because of the above. The true Boerboel can't be proven because the tests aren't out there...

    One last comment... Samantha has had all of her dogs either OFA or Penn Hipped and they have all scored WELL above the mean for the breed.

    I hope my post has been informative...feel free to ask away if you are curious about any specific section...I'm typing fast, it's late and my bed is calling to me...hubby is snoring even! LOL...

  12. hermann muenster

    hermann muenster New Member

    Again, not to be rude,

    Sara, why are you explaining, justifying, or encouraging Sam's breeding?

    Is it because Pecious is your pup? Do you have some personal investment - like financial gain? with these litters??

    Did sam at the very, very, very least get a CGC for these dogs??

    Did Sam at the very, very, least title the dogs for basic obedience - and not the petsmart certificate??? There is no reason that these dogs haven't earned their CD titles. That is an easy title to get -- all it takes is getting out to the shows -- and if someone doesn't have time or money to get their dogs that title -- I don't think the dog should be bred. Especially a breed like the boerboel or pits.

    I know you can't dispute the fact that rescues, and shelters are full of these types of breeds.

    Can you tell me why the shelters and rescues have more than their fair share of pits and pitmixes, mastiffs and mastiffmixes, dobe and dobemixes, rotties, and rottie mixes???? Why are there so many of these dogs in need of homes???

    I know the answer and all of the good folks on this board that are involved with pit and bullied breed rescue know the answer to that question.
    I would like to understand how you justify breeding dogs that are not titled?
    Just curious.
  13. charmedagain

    charmedagain New Member

    I will tell you why so many dogs end up in shelters, Its because people see these cute little puppies and think oh i have to have one, Not doing any research into the breed,Not taking into consideration the time and money involved in looking after a dog.

    Then when this cute little puppy turns into an adult dog they find it was too big for the home, Or the temprament is not what they expected,
    Or work commitments result in the animal being left for long periods of time on its own, Finding they dont have the time to look after this animal,Or the dog didnt turn out the way they thought it would look the list goes on.

    Well NOT to OFFEND but sam does not need to justify or explain why she is breeding, She knows what she is doing and is not a novice at this, She has all the relevant tests done, She takes pride in her animals, All homes and new owners will be thoroughly checked out, Homes will be checked regularly to make sure they are being well cared for and she will also take back any dog that the new owners can no longer keep.

    She is not one of these people that will stop all contact once the pup leaves her home, Unlike backyard breeders that are only out to make money.

    Sam is not interested in making money and never has been if you read through most of her posts you will see that.

    Just to add yes i breed GSD and all have titles for Agility, Obedience, Guarding and they all come from champion bloodlines but theni dont have to explain myself either.


    P.S Sam all the best and please keep me posted of how the girls are doing and when you find out if they are in whelp.
  14. hermann muenster

    hermann muenster New Member

    you made my point -- you breed GSD's and the breeding dogs you own have titles in agility, obedience and guarding. I commend your fine work and reponsibility as a breeder!!

    Maybe you know sam personally, I don't. Maybe you have personally known her for years and have seen her dogs. I haven't. All I know about Sam is that she has owned several boerboel's for less than 2years.

    Also, as you said, shelters are full of dogs that people have bought only to find out that it isn't the dog for them (for one reason or another) and those dogs were sold to these families by breeders that had puppies that needed to be placed. It shows poor judgement on the part of the breeder.

    Again, I would never encourage anyone to breed unless the dogs have been proven -- and unfortunately, in our flawed world, the only way to do that is with titles. --- Which apparently you felt were important enough, and enjoyed working with your dogs enough to earn.

    I didn't start this posting to irritate -- my intentions were to understand why someone would want to intentionally create a litter (or 2) from dogs that are not of the highest standards.

    Please, you know how rescue people fight for the lives of so many shelter dogs every day.
  15. Sara

    Sara New Member


    Since you posed some of your questions in this thread directly to me and very pointedly I will answer you.

    "Sara, why are you explaining, justifying, or encouraging Sam's breeding?"

    I'm explaining reasons for some practices, not necessarly samantha's but anyone who is dealing with the Boerboel breed and breeding them. I'm also not encouraging anyone to do anything, what Sam has that I do not is the resources to work Boerboels and have them living in an invironment where they are used as they were in South Africa, to their standard. No breeder needs justification for their practices, there are too many insights and views from those who do not breed to do that, it's just not possible or necessary. I only post to explain different points of view on the specific subject of the breeding of Boerboels nothing more nothing less.

    "Is it because Pecious is your pup?"

    Precious is no onger my dog, I did not produce precious nor did I own dogs who went into producing Precious. My partial ownership of Precious was transferred over to Samantha because I and her breeder beleived that Precious's conformation warrented some working background to put into her and I did not have the resources to provide that, Samantha does.

    " Do you have some personal investment - like financial gain? with these litters??"

    My half the the ownership of Precious dissolved when I turned her over to Samantha no strings attatched. Frankly I am offended at the tone of these questions.

    "Did sam at the very, very, very least get a CGC for these dogs??"

    Anyone familiar with Guardian breeds who's sole purpose is to guard, nothing else, knows that a CGC title is somewhat detrimental to a true guard. Many people who are involved in the breeding of Personal Protection dogs view dog shows as detrimental as EVERY aspect of a dog show goes against the very nature of what a true personal protection dog is meant to do and be...to ask a dog like this to hold still for some stinky person who's staring intently at them to show them their teeth nicely is just rediculous. Sch. and other titles are SPORTING titles, they're usefull to see what a dog physically can do and how well a dog is trained but to see if a dog can truly do his job as a guardian it's not proof, it's a game to the dog.

    "Did Sam at the very, very, least title the dogs for basic obedience - and not the petsmart certificate??? There is no reason that these dogs haven't earned their CD titles. That is an easy title to get -- all it takes is getting out to the shows -- and if someone doesn't have time or money to get their dogs that title -- I don't think the dog should be bred. Especially a breed like the boerboel or pits."

    I'm not sure where a Boerboel mixes in with a breed like a Pit Bull because their uses are VERY different from one another as is their size and structures. There are MANY powerfull breeds out there and MANY breeds who specifically are meant for purposes that the general public is not aware of nor should they be. Let's take the Fila for example...did you know that only recently were judges in conformation shows allowed to TOUCH a Fila? WHY??? Because a Fila was bred to hunt down prisoners in Brazil, they are hunting dogs that hunt for people...grilling a Fila breeder about titles on his/her dogs would be a waste of time...CGC title on a Fila??? It goes against the breed standard as it stands in Brazil... The General public should not own a Fila but the breed is usefull so breeders are breeding them.

    I feel that the General public should not own a Boerboel, they come from South Africa, one of the most violent and crime ridden places in the civilized world...they are a guard dog there...I can guarantee that a true working South African Boerboel FROM South Africa would not pass a CGC test. I've met a couple, Precious' sire for instance and they are truly WORKING guard dogs, honestly, the importation of the breed in my opinion was a mistake made by people who really were aiming at making some money. At least what has been imported are Diet Boerboels and at least in the US people like Samantha, myself and other breeders and owners of the breed can be responsible enough to socialize the breed properly and keep them out of harms way.

    I do know Sam personally and have known her for a few years now. I am a person who holds pretty high standards regarding the breeding of working dogs but sometimes the standards of a working dog don't fit in with the standards of a general public, how you choose to measure those standards is difficult and answering to the General public regarding the measurement of correctness for this breed and a few others is impossible.

    You are a good dog owner and buyer Hermann, you are an asset to people like myself and Samantha and any other breeder/owner of powerful breeds, but sometimes you and people like you are a little toooo judgemental about things you unfortunately do not understand.

  16. Samsintentions

    Samsintentions New Member

    You bring up some very fine points.

    Conformation shows are just that. Conformation, it does not what so ever include the dog performing in any other matter than parading around in a ring. Doesn't include the CGC titles, nor the hip, eye, ear, elbow, cardiac, ect tests that my dogs have ALL been thru.

    Precious will be shown along with all the other dogs. I do take very high pride in my dogs and prove them all worthy before a thought is even passed about breeding.

    Byeboer unfortunately missed his SABT apprasial and will be attending in May along with all the dogs. Thats a heafty $1200 to be shelling out for one show. Yet again, for a show that proves nothing other than conformation and how well the dog suits the breed standards as far as looks and gait go. They dont take into consideration how the dog behaves, performs, guards nor scores in health testings.

    To whom ever asked I belive it was Sue, Yes, we do get certificates on hip scores and such. Please feel free to check them out, I have x-rays and health scores and origninal certificates scanned and uploaded on to my website for all to see.

    How do I know my dogs won't end up in shelters and responsible owners are the only ones considered for selling a pup to? For one. I screen VERY heavily. Everyone and anyone is welcome at my home to watch my dogs in person. Anyone is allowed to call my vet and ask health related inforamtion and test scoring on my dogs. I do have a rather lengthy contract and guidelines all future owners are to follow.

    While Yes I've only had boerboels going on 3 years now. I have researched them for the past 5.

    My dogs are obediance certified and not thru PetsMart either. I think thats one of the biggest jokes out there. Just about anyone can get an obeidance certificate from Pets mart if their dog walks on a leash and sits.

    To be completely honest, I haven't had the oppertunity for a CGC to be done. One is coming up in February and I look forward to going as I know all my dogs will perform well and pass. Vader is a CGC dog as well as hasd done some Agility. though I'm not sure how much she's done.

    The 2007 year will be a very busy year for me. I do have most shows lined out and am ready to go. But it takes just as Sara meantioned. Money.

    I can honestly say I have more money invested in my dogs than in anything else. More dedication as well. Show me a show where my dogs can actually go and perform what the breed is intended to actually do and i'll be there in a heart beat. But unfortunately there are none.

    Boerboels are just that. Guardians. Thats what they are bred to do. Guard their territory from threat. Anyone who's read up on the breed would know so.

    I don't have the time to explain every detail of them. Though I'd love to, but I assure you if there was a reason I could't breed them, I wouldn't be.

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