1. Welcome to Auspet.com. Please login or register to post or reply to other messages. Registration is free.
    Dismiss Notice

To attack or not to attack?

Discussion in 'Dogs - Pit bull breeds specific' started by BronxthePit, Sep 29, 2004.

?

To attack or not to attack?

Poll closed Oct 6, 2004.
  1. I think its wrong to teach your dog to attack on command!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Heck , I taught mine how to!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. GinaH

    GinaH New Member

    IM not going to get into this dispute because I do not know the first thing about protection dogs or any of the above. I do own 3 Pit Bulls and they all are indoor dogs and I can honestly say they would let someone pack my house away. I also have a Pekingese and most likely she would be the one to attack an intruder before any of my Pit Bulls. I think if someone were attempting to cause harm to me or my family Punkin would protect us but not my property.

    Bluebelle
    http://www.dogster.com/?75640

    Punkin
    http://www.dogster.com/?75639

    Fancy
    http://www.dogster.com/?75637

    Pinky
    http://www.dogster.com/?75636

    Molly
    http://www.catster.com/?78238
     
  2. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Have you had any formal training on how to train guard dogs? Do you have any aquaintances that are professionals that you can confer with? If not, how do you know that you are taining them the right way? IE: not half-assed?

    It's just like a breeder who doesn't go to shows or even talk to other breeders (that actually show and champion their dogs) saying they have the best dogs, and they produce the best dogs. Those breeders are doing it half-assed at best, just like an ameteur dog trainer. Sorry you weren't able to decipher my "dumb" post.
     
  3. BronxthePit

    BronxthePit New Member

    :roll: anyway...


    Gina : I love pinky!!!! :) shes so cute. i can't belive she is two years old she looks younger. i love white pittys.

    you need to take more pictures of her.
     
  4. nakoma_star

    nakoma_star New Member

    well people im just gunna say this because i am done fighting with people.........stay out of my backyard dont go in our yard at all without us being there and angel is in the house so dont go in the flippin house and you wont get attacked otherwise its your own d**n fault my dogs protect my family and my house and required very little training because they were like this from day one AND ANOTHER THING NEVER SHOW FEAR!
     
  5. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Bronx - I asked legitmate questions, and your response is "anyway..." That is the type of response I'd expect from a BYB like I used in my example. It seems like if someone disagrees with you, you simply accuse them of being "dumb". You asked our opinons of whether or not we agree with training your dog to attack. Then, you brow-beat everyone who doesn't agree with you that it's okay. Why did you ask in the 1st place? Just to stir up trouble? You obviously weren't seeking others' opinions for your own research, because you already had your mind made up that it was okay and that you were going to train your dog.
     
  6. GinaH

    GinaH New Member

    Bronx
    I have tons more pictures of Pinky!
    http://photobucket.com/albums/v338/reginaha/
     
  7. BronxthePit

    BronxthePit New Member

    gina : :eek:


    sp: where to begin........ everything was peachy keen, UNTIL, the comment "halfassed training" was made. my comment was 'who are you to tell anyone that their training is half assed'. What was DUMB, was for someone to come back with "who are you to say your training isn't half-assed?". That is something I'd expect from a 10 year old.And you question if 'I' thrive to stir up trouble????

    Supposed I told you unless you took formal training by a trained/certified professional ...the training of your children was HALF ASSED? I think you or any parent would take that quiet offensive. And then after the initial insult, asked you what qualifications you had to be a parent and to train children?

    Do you need a certified pro. to raise/train children or even dogs(to do anything)? Absolutely not. Could one do a better job perhaps? Most Definately..but does that make the non certified pro. less of a trainer? Absolutely not. To sit here and argue that it does ..is nonsense.

    The BYB breeder comment(another stab at an insult)?? Again how would this help get your point across???

    Please.... spare me the antics SpencerPits.

    What it seems ....is that you like to jump into threads/disagreements spitting gasoline in a dying fire :

    http://www.auspet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5730&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

    So if I choose to no longer continue a conflict with you, you'll understand.
    :y_the_best:
     
  8. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Bronx - none of what I said was meant to be an insult. I was merely trying to make a point, as I'm sure Goob was. You say that I like to 'jump in threads spitting gasoline on a dying fire' yet you are the one who does not seem to handle adult debate well (which is what this would be without the childish name calling). If someone does not agree with you, they are just plain wrong, or you blatantly call them dumb. And as for the parenting comment, I am not training my son to attack on command, or any other harmful activity for that matter. And no, I do not have a 'certification' to raise children, but I have had the help and taken the advice of many other parents who have successfully raised children (by successfully, I mean they grew up to be mature, productive adults). Have you even talked with an experienced ('professional' or otherwise) dog trainer who has successfully trained dogs in protection work? For that matter, how much research have you done on the subject at all? Cause I can tell you, I did (and still do) a lot of reading, conversing, reasearching, etc on parenting. And breeding, and pit bulls in general. Anything you do, you should put your best effort into so you can honestly say you tried your best, and hopefully you can be proud of the results. That is my opinion, anyway.
     
  9. loves-da-pits

    loves-da-pits New Member

    I don't usually get involved with this type of discussions about PitBulls. I will say my take on this.

    If someone has a properly trained PitBull and has thoughts of protection training, my I suggest Schutzhund training. It's best if the instructor has training in PitBulls as the techniques that work well with other Schutzhund breeds often don't work with PitBulls. Many PitBulls are more reluctant to bite a human.

    Some people find PitBulls participating in bite work controversial considering the bad press about aggression that has plagued PitBulls over the past few years. Most people who have a problem with Schutzhund don't really understand the sport. Trained PitBulls aren't the ones biting the people.

    Schutzhund trials are offered by local Schutzhund clubs, (United Schutzhund Clubs of America, and DVG/America which is an all breeds club)

    Schutzhund teaches a dog how to control its drives in response to a threat and, even more so, how to respond to the trainer in the presence of a threat. An owner who is committed to the sport can build a solid relationship of obedience, control and respect.

    An even more important fact, Attack or protection training without proper obedience training is dangerous.
     
  10. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    This topic has gone nuts. I thought it was done, came back and now all this debate. There will always be people who will exploit and misuse APBTs and there isn't much we can do about it. Thats why they do have a bad rep, thats why they are singled out. Because of those who misused them in the first place, we can never change that and have to deal with it. Raise yours right. The sad thing is when these peoples dogs attack it does add more bad media (which they already get from all angles), they are not true APBTs, they don't act correctly, but people don't understand that. I have countless times heard Pit bulls reffered to as guard dogs or met the idiot who can't understand why his Pit Bull is a puss when he bought it for a guard dog. Its really out of control now, thanks to those who misused them and the media who says every dog who attacks is a Pit Bull.

    the halfassed/redcoat analogy I don't think is comparable. You can tell if a breeder is doing it "halfass" by observation, and no you don't ever have to meet or speak with them. First you have to know what an APBT is supposed to look like, act like, ect. You see some one who isn't meeting up to the standards and yes is a byb like SP said, well then they're doing it "halfass" are they not?

    The child raising comparison I don't see either. There is a difference between raising a child and training a dog. Dogs are not humans. There is a difference between raising a dog (which many people do halfass anyway, before they dump the dog off) and protection training a dog. If you want to get humans involved most parents let pros train their children in different activities. Because they don't have the proper knowledge to teach the child correctly, so they learn it right and prevent injury.
     
  11. GinaH

    GinaH New Member

    I have read over this topic I find it interesting although honestly I have no knowledge of the topic. I would like to say to NakomaStar I find your language in your post on page 3 to be very offensive and uncalled for. There is no need to use foul language. There is the occasional child who pops onto this forum and I shudder at the thought of a child reading such language. Please refrain from such language out of respect of others.
     
  12. goob

    goob New Member

    True, but the implications of killing a person are far more serious than those of killing a dog, not that some criminals are thinking about that.


    Guess you've never seen the stories of trained police dogs that refused to out from after catching a criminal. Considering that these dogs are trained by professionals who break HARD tempered dogs for a living, and are trained for/expected to have 100% compliance (anything less opens the state up for a lawsuit), you'd think if they can fail to comply, a dog trained by someone with little to no experience doing so might be even more likely to do the same.

    The tour guide dog is already dog aggressive, as is common for this breed, but even if she wasn't, for her to suddenly "snap" and attack someone elses dog would not come as a big surprise. The APBT was bred for fighting, not guarding; which is why they are tolerant of humans, but generally not to other dogs.

    What I said applies to dogs guarding houses as well. Seeing as you KNOW your dog will bite someone, you are obligated to keep them from biting someone, as you would be with any other "weapon" (you may disagree with a dog being classified as such, but many state laws place them in that category when cases of guard dogs biting go to trial).

    "Actually, if I lived in an area that I feared for my safety enough to take measures of a protection trained dog...."

    Thanks for the concern, but the community I live in is quite different from what you describe. People around here are helpful to the point of annoyance, and quick to report anything they find out of the ordinary, both to the authorities and to everyone else in the area. Even so, I'm not stupid enough to think that nothing could ever happen (and do take precautions against such things), but if it were that much of a concern to me that I was afraid to leave my home without protection, you bet I'd be living elsewhere.

    Do you think people need to be reminded daily by sensationalized media reports of the dangers pit bulls pose to their families? People forget. In past years, it's been GSDs, Dobies, Chows... there are a few people today that still fear those breeds based on stereotypes, but not as many as there were. Pit bulls have somehow managed to hold the "bad breed" spot longer than any other thus far, possibly because people figure the damage is already done, so why bother trying to do anything about it. Or because most don't care.

    Sure. Germany accepted it (actually, I'm sure not all owners did), their dogs must be sterilized (and since importation of them is no longer allowed, that means the breed is basically being allowed to die out), kept locked inside a house in specially made steel cages when left unattended, muzzled and on short leashes when outside. There have been dogs beaten to death, burned to death, shot and left to bleed out in the street, not to mention thousands taken from their familes and killed (or worse, left to rot in cages for years while courts decide whether they are or are not really "pit bulls"). The UK accepted it years ago, pit bulls are a rare find there these days, and those left are under heavy restriction. Italy's accepted it, pit bulls (along with 91 other breeds) are under the restrictions there as well. Her in the US, The entire state of Ohio has breed restrictions, 25 other states have at least one city where "pit bulls" are either restricted or banned, many have more than one, and several other cities are considering BSL at present. An entire province in Canada is considering a ban on "pit bulls" (and at present, things are looking to be in favor of a ban), another is considering and said to be waiting to hear what the first decides. There are other individual cities where pit bulls are already restricted. Denmark, Brazil, Norway, France, Poland, Belgium, and Romania also have restrictions on pit bulls. But I suppose you're right, and the sooner we accept the fact that we may someday lose the right to own dogs of "pit bull" breeding, the better off we'll all be.

    Any breed has the potential to kill a human, especially a large breed. By that logic, any dog over 40 lbs should be banned (hey, there are a few places that have done that, so maybe you're on the right track).

    The APBT was a muscular, strong, short haired breed in the first half of the 20th century, just as it is now. Nothing's changed in that respect, except for a whole lot more people owning them, and more thinking it's a good idea to try and go against what nature (actually, selective breeding by man) has given the majority of pit bulls.

    Why would anyone want to go against the the APBT's human friendly nature and bite inhibition and teach them to bite? I'm having a hard time following your logic, just as you seem to be having a hard time grasping the concept of APBTs being dogs that are not supposed to bite humans. A "true APBT" of the past would have been worm food if they laid tooth to a person, and that sort of culling made for lots of human friendly, non biting APBTs. So, why be worried about watering down the breed's tough image when you are taking one of the breed's most important traits and tossing it to the wind?
     
  13. Angie

    Angie New Member

    If you ask why, whats wrong with asking why not?
    Who is to tell if the training is half assed? Who is to tell if the training is NOT half assed. Some might say it is... some might say its not. Obviously you think its not. So maybe this is where you should prove the person wrong or right.
    To you, your job might be done right but to others.. it takes a professional or help from one. These are called opinions. WHO is to know? I don't know. And I really don't care. So please don't think I am 'taking sides'.


    Also, I don't think its right for you to tell sp that her question was 'DUMB' and that you would expect her question 'from a 10 year old'.
    How is asking a reasonable question dumb but saying this:
    about a reasonable question not 'dumb'?
    You asked who is she to tell. I'm sorry but (IMO) I don't see anything 'dumb' about her asking who are you to tell.

    Sorry Bronx, not trying to be mean, just wondering about these things.
    Please don't take offense to any of this.
     
  14. BronxthePit

    BronxthePit New Member

    As far as children/dog comments, it was an illustration not a comparasion. Inexperienced(non certified) parents raise children all the time, and do a mighty find job of raising respectful, law-abiding trustworthy good people(without consulting anyone). However on the flipside ,some inexperienced parents also raise rapist,murders,theives,lawyers & politicians(haha couldn't resist :lol: ). Because of the latter however NO ONE has any right to say that ALL inexperienced parents do a H.A'd job of raising children. AGAIN the illustration is about the act(whether sucess or failure) of training, I am NOT comparing raising dogs to children(jeez) I can't break that down any more than that.

    Spencerpits I never questioned you parenting. AGAIN the point was if a stranger who didn't know you or your kids came up to you(or anyone) and made that statement I'd be hardpressed not to belive that you wouldn't find it offensive. But then maybe you would sit there and explain yourself , but I know I wouldn't, and I doubt most people would.

    Thats why I won't answer your questions. Because ...how to put this simply...Unless I were trying to sell you or someone else protection dogs...its really none of your business what my qualifications are. Even if I did state some certfications that I hold, those would prob. be picked apart as well.Even if not I don't have to explain myself to you.

    Others have made post that did not agree with the other half of us, that were logical and actually made me say "hmmmm"...but to read those , and then read yours saying " Well how do you know your training isn't h.a'd"... yeah that was pretty 'dumb' to me. Don't talk to me about an adult dicussion. It was one until someone implied 'Anyone who doesn't use a certified trainer is going to do a h.a job' . We agree to disagree.

    goob : We agree on one thing , the law of the land is what it is. The law might consider it self-defense but a good lawyer might help the Judge/Jury think otherwise. So in the end it's whoever has the better lawyer. I never said ban muscular dogs , I said thats why people push it. Thats why I was raised as a child to hate/fear pitbulls,rottwielers,dobermans,etc because of what they were capable of.

    ...and to whoever..i can't remember at the moment who asked again how we could say our training isn't h.a'd.... because of the results..thats how...just like the group thats posted there short and to the point testimonials. You can't say that it is h.a'd because of what COULD happen because as was already mentioned (not just by me but people who diagree) anything is possible.

    I am not even touching that can of worms as to why APBT's have a bad rap. Thats another serious difference of opinion. I'm not trying to convert anyone into beliving anything, if you agree/disagree than more power to you. But don't sit there and try to bash the other half that dont agree (which didn't start until the ha comment)...but then again I guess thats just part of your opinion to.
     
  15. nakoma_star

    nakoma_star New Member

    I apologize to everyone for my language but i have been in a bad mood lately with alot that has been going on not to mention i just think this thread has turned stupid any dog can be trained to attack on comman or gaurd your property it isnt hurting the animal its hurting people that try to attack you break into your house etc etc if you wanna train your dogs to protect MORE POWER TO YU if not then why ar you here reading this post and fighting over it? sometimes i wonder whats going on in peoples heads if you dont like it dont argue just say ok whatever and leave it go at that!!!
     
  16. Angie

    Angie New Member

    I think the reason people are giving their opinions about the post is because the first post was a question for any person to answer. A question of anyones opinion.

    The first post:
     
  17. spencerpits

    spencerpits New Member

    Ok, whatever. :mrgreen:
     
  18. True_Pits

    True_Pits New Member

    Bronx I understand the illustration, as some one saying your doing a h.a. job parenting it could be offensive/insulting to the parent just like the dog owner training their dog. I just saw it in a different context because a lot of first time dog owners raise their dogs okay (and some do horrible jobs), just like inexperienced parents. But parents wouldn't teach martial arts, gymnastics, ect without the help of a pro. Hope you see the context I saw it in, after your explaination I get what you mean now and kind of agree. Its like a personal attack.

    Nakoma everyone has a bad day, or gets in a bad mood. I know I've wrote some things and realized that my bad mood was coming out..lol


    I think what people have said makes sense, why would you take a dog selectivly bred to be friendly and have bite inhibition and teach them to bite? It would be more logical to buy a breed thats bred with territorial instincts, protective instincts, and bite control. What you said Goob is very true about police dogs, I fostered one for a short time that was like that, training can fail even for the pros. I see that a lot of amateurs don't know what they are doing or the consequence, until its too late, until they can't get their dog off the other person. I also see it pointless to train an APBT this way because even though they are bred to be friendly they also have great discernment and know who's good and who's bad, sometimes even before you do. They will die for you, they'll do whatever it takes to protect you. So why waste time training them and possibly mess them up in mind and temperament? Most people with half a brain in their head aren't going to mess with a Pit Bull period because of their reputation. Even though most of super friendly, the media portrays them as the devil himself, dangerous and purely evil, criminals aren't an exception to this brainwashing and lies. They see a Pit Bull they'd be likely to choose a different house, an easier target. If they hear them barking you better believe they're not coming in. Actually if they hear a dog barking period they'd be likely to choose another house. Unless they're is a serious reason they are after you and only you, most criminals will choose a home that has no dogs. Even small dogs who bark a lot alert the owners and criminals usually want it easy. If some one tries to attack you (not in your home) your APBT isn't going to allow that to happen. There is no training required, they have a great discernment. That story I told about my dog, his growling is pretty dern scary and that guy didn't follow me or do any of the things he normally does. Had he tried anything my dog I'm sure would have protected me. They've been bred like this for a long time and its been successful in both having a very friendly, safe dog and dog that will protect you when needed. Thats just another reason why they're my favorite breed.

    I'm not here to bash others or say their training is h.a. because I don't know. Most owners are, the majority who try it at home. They think they're doing a fine job, but they're not. Even some of the "pros" screw up your dog, thats why you need a really reputable trainer, and they're not always easy to find. methods and the trainers knowledge make a difference. People have even sued "pro trainers" for screwing their dogs up, it seems everyone is sue happy for anything...lol Maybe their is an exception with some one doing it on their own. And maybe they aren't making the worse, most aggressive dog, like you see some people trying to get. Their goal is to have a dog that lunges at everything, tries to attack everything and everyone in its path. A dog without discernment is almost a worthless one. If you have a guard dog that tries to attack people who walk near your property then theres something wrong with that unless that person has ill intent. The dog shouldn't feel threatened by them.
     
  19. Jas

    Jas New Member

    **Agreed! Everyone has now had a chance to state their opinion and I think we've heard all we need to hear.

    Thanks everyone.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page